View Full Version : What The Heck Is This?

October 9, 2008, 12:45 PM
At the request of mnw42, and to reduce any clutter I have created, I will post all of my pics/questions in this thread of any guns from my collection:
Heres the first:

This rifle has a stamp on the stock with the above name and 1936 in a circular pattern. Only visible numbers are F7071, behind front sight. Bayonette sharp as a pin. missing magazine. R E Terni is also behind front sight, with a crown above it. Oh there is an odd combination of numbers on right side of barrel 36-XIV. Any estimate as far as value?

October 9, 2008, 06:15 PM
It's a sporterized/chopped Italian Army Terni rifle - only been dropped once (when the owner surrendered) ;) .

IIRC, the caliber/cartridge should be one of the small, rimmed, European 6.5's (6.5 Caracano ?).

It's an Italian rip-off of an 1891 Mauser design.


Jim Watson
October 9, 2008, 06:46 PM
Gotta disagree with PetaW
The illustrated rifle is an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano Model 38 carbine in Italian WW II army issue configuration, complete with folding bayonet. Caliber 6.5x52 Carcano.

36-XIV is the date code, 1936, the 14th year of Mussolini's regime.

It is not "missing magazine", the magazine is integral with the trigger guard but has to be loaded from the top with six rounds at a time in en-bloc clips.
The clips fall out the bottom when empty. Clips are available here and there.

Design is basically Mannlicher (a competitor of Mauser) with some Italian tweaks. Not a great gun, but not as bad as commonly reported.

October 9, 2008, 07:15 PM
Thanks Jim. would you have a ballpark estimate as far as value? Oh, and not to get too O/T, but isn't this the same gun Oswald used to kill JFK?

October 9, 2008, 07:59 PM
I have seen them for 150-250 at gunshows depending on condition and the seller. As the clips and ammo are not easy to aquire, but not impossible, there is less interest in them as compared to some of the more common surps around right now, that you can get ammo for. I think the Germans converted some of the Italian rifles to 8MM so they could interchange ammo with them but I am not sure which models of the Italian rifles were done so. ANd I also think the 8MM conversions might not be as safe as original configuration either. Well not saying there is no interest in them. As collectables they have their place but folks looking for shooters generally try something else unless very serious. I think historically the ww2 Italian rifles have not brought alot of money. Sort of like the Japanese rifles were but interest in those has finally driven up prices. As well as a bit more new ammo available. Not exactly the same rifle that LHO used but he got it because it was real cheap at the time. Your little carbine is a somewhat different configuration I believe. Might be a bear to shoot being short like that, sort of like the short MN rifles are more intense to shoot than the long rifles.

October 9, 2008, 10:05 PM
Included on top of breech is the date 1923. SN# 5243. From what I have found, I believe it is a 7mm chambering.Any idea on approximate value?

James K
October 9, 2008, 10:21 PM
It is a Spanish Model 1916 short rifle. The action is the same as the Model 1893 rifle. Oviedo was the site of one of the two Spanish government rifle factories. It is in Asturias in northern Spain. The other factory was at La Coruna in the northwest, on the Atlantic.

Unless altered, the caliber would be 7mm or 7x57, which we call the 7mm Mauser.


October 10, 2008, 07:36 AM
Gun one is a Carcano Calvary Carbine (Moschetto Cavalleria). The folding bayonet is the give away. The Carcano uses 6 rd. en-bloc clips that drop out of the bottom of the magazine when the last round is chambered. It is probably chambered in 6.5x52mm. It may also be 7.53mm, though that is unlikely.

The Italians made a few different carbine versions of the M1891. Yours is an earlier version with the adjustable rear sight. Later ones had a fixed rear sight like the M38 TS (Oswald used one). They also made carbines from cut down long rifles. Unfortunately, the majority of long rifles had gain twist rifling and the cut-down carbines don't have enough twist to stabilize the bullet. Your rifle is probably purposes built and will shoot just fine. Latter rifles with standard rifling and early rifles with unmolested barrels shoot pretty good.

The battle zero is 300m so keep that in mind. Hornady and Norma make ammo for it with the proper bullet size (.268"). Numrich has the clips which you will need if you want to shoot it. The 6.5mm is a very pleasant cartridge to shoot.

More info can be found here....http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/


October 10, 2008, 10:48 AM
Ok, this one might be a little tricky, as there is no english writing anywhere, withthe exception of the SN#1817337. There is a marking that looks like a daisy at the base of the barrel,and some chinese? engraving. Hope the pic helps. Any input on calibre,approx age,value?

October 10, 2008, 11:38 AM
It's an Arisaka of some sort.

Mike Irwin
October 10, 2008, 12:15 PM
You need to take some clearer photographs of that particular rifle.

Better lighting.

Concentrate on good, CLEAR photographs of the markings on the breech, the bolt handle, and the muzzle area.

It's impossible to tell right now whether it's a chopped up after war conversion, or whether you have a real gem.

October 10, 2008, 12:47 PM
Thanks for the tips Mike. I have taken a few more pics. Even with the flash off, its difficult to get a good shot of the breech. Hope these help.

James K
October 10, 2008, 01:14 PM
It is a Japanese Type 38 rifle, pretty well sporterized, ruining it for collectors. Too bad as the chrysanthemum (symbol of the Japanese emperor) appears to be intact, which would have made it more valuable to collectors. The presence of the "mum" crest indicates the rifle was captured in combat; rifles surrendered from depots after the war have the crest ground off. The U.S. allowed the crest to be ground so the emperor's symbol would not be disgraced; at the time, we needed his cooperation in keeping Japan under control.

The first symbol should be three horizontal lines which is 3 and then a symbol that looks like reversed parens )( which is 8, then a third symbol that means "Type" or "Model". So it reads "38 Type". If the caliber is unaltered, it is 6.5x50 or 6.5 Japanese.

The slots in the receiver were for a dust cover that slid back and forth with the bolt. They are often missing; reportedly Japanese soldiers themselves discarded them because they rattled.


Mike Irwin
October 10, 2008, 01:42 PM

Yep, that's exactly what it is.

Someone turned a Type 38 into a Mannlicher style carbine.

Supposedly there were some pre-Type 38 Mannlicher-type cavalry carbines made (based on the Type 30? I can't remember right now), but never taken into standard service.

October 10, 2008, 03:49 PM
Thanks guys. Heres #4. Receiver Says U.S. Model of 1917 Winchester. A little more straightforward. than last gun. From my research I believe it's an Enfield 30-06. Serial #437946
has it been sporterized?/value thoughts?


Jim Watson
October 10, 2008, 04:32 PM
Yup, US model of 1917 .30-06, very many issued in WW I.
Looks GI to me, except for the strap-on cheek pad.
I can't tell the type of finish or condition, but if it is in good shape and especially if it is blue, it has some collector value, I won't guess the dollars.

October 10, 2008, 05:46 PM
The 1917 appears to be unmolested as far as is visible from that pic. Take off that pad, though. Blech! :D

IMO, the 1917 is a very underappreciated rifle. What is the date on top of barrel behind the front sight?

The reciever is 1918, so if the barrel is 1918-1919, it's going to be more valuable.
The Winchester make is more valued than Eddystone as well, b/c fewer were made.

October 10, 2008, 08:18 PM
Thanks for the info Chipperman.
Date on barrel is 1918 (would have never thought to look there for the date). Cheek pad is pretty ugly.Wasn't sure if I should leave it on or not. Some of the rubber "butt protectors" on some of these guns were so dry rotted, they broke into a million pieces when I took them off.

October 10, 2008, 09:02 PM
While this particular gun may not have any monetary value, it has sentimental value as my grandfather (who is still alive) bought this gun at Sears in 1936 when he was 14 years old. He still talks about it as if he bought it yesterday, and it will stay in the family. It is a Ranger model 101-14 in 22 cal. Just thought I would post a pic of it.

Jim Watson
October 10, 2008, 10:09 PM
Sears didn't own a gun factory, this one was made for them by Stevens.

October 11, 2008, 09:06 AM
Ok, this rifles in kinda rough shape. On the top of the breech is stamped 1955, underneath which is the number 26. Under the 26 is the SN# 3063517. SN on bolt does not match the others. 7.62mm stamped on rear of receiver.

October 11, 2008, 11:51 AM
That's an M44.
Does it have a soviet crest on the top of the reciever?

October 11, 2008, 12:31 PM
There is no soviet crest on top of the receiver. It has 3 asian symbols above 1955

Dr. Strangelove
October 11, 2008, 03:50 PM
While there is absolutely nothing wrong with your pictures the way the are, there are a couple of things you might consider to make it easier to evaluate the firearm in question.

Try to remove anything from the picture that is not relevant to what you what identified. An old white bed sheet draped over your wire shelf would suffice, better yet spread it out on a table, counter, or even the floor and shoot it there (the picture, not the rifle;)).

If you can use natural light instead of the flash, your pictures won't have glare. Outside is best, if that's not an option, take the picture in front of a large window or sliding glass door. Even a couple of desk lamps will do in a pinch.

Use the macro setting on your camera for close-ups such as proof marks, receiver shots, etc. You will need to be within four inches or so on most cameras. (The crest on the Ariska would be an example)

I don't mean to suggest that there is anything wrong with your pictures, just thought it might be helpful. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

October 11, 2008, 04:00 PM
Hey Dr S.

Thanks for your photo tips. I'm a complete FNG when it comes to guns, let alone photography, andf will definitely take your tips into consideration. I have been trying not to use the flash, due to obvious glare reasons.
To show my appreciation, my next pic will look less novice-like.
Thanks again!

October 11, 2008, 04:23 PM
On one side of the breech it says MOD 1908. On top of the breach is a star wot the words Estados Unidos Do Brasil. Left side of breech says fabrica de Itajuba. SN is 4986. Barrel says 7mm. Sporterized?any value?

Jim Watson
October 11, 2008, 04:38 PM
It is a 1908 Brazilian Mauser, caliber 7mm Mauser, also known as 7x57 (caliber - case length.)

Yours was made under license in Brazil rather than being imported from Germany. It looks in original military configuration, not sporterized.

October 11, 2008, 05:17 PM
Thanks Jim. Heres Gun# 8. This one says "FABRICA DE (illegible word) in an arch pattern over what looks like a bird with arms? Beneath this bird figure says LA CORONA, underneath which is the date 1943. Side of breech says cal. 7.62, while front of barrel says 308 win. It says CAI ST ALB VT above 308 win. Oh, left side of breech says FR8=18649.

Jim Watson
October 11, 2008, 05:41 PM
You have a Spanish FR-8.

It was originally built at La Coruna arsenal in Spain under license from Mauser as an 8mm very like German WW II issue.

It was later converted to 7.62 NATO and the sights changed to resemble the CETME automatic rifle, with the tube under the barrel to resemble the auto's action tube. They were for border patrol and second line troops to free up the CETME autos for first class infantry. It was surplused and imported here by Century Arms International and marked with their logo (as required by law) and stamped .308 to let us colonials know what the US commercial round equivalent to 7.62 NATO is.

October 12, 2008, 10:46 AM
This gun says Hakim 7.9mm Made in Egypt on the right side of receiver. Has what looks like a flash suppressor on muzzle. Says CAI ST ALB VT behind muzzle. Gun is 47.5" long.Second pic is left side of stock, which has SN painted on it ( This # matches one on receiver. How do I close the action on this thing? Got it open, but cannot close.

Jim Watson
October 12, 2008, 11:28 AM
Hakim is the Egyptian version of the Swedish Ljungman semiautomatic rifle.
Caliber is what we know as 8mm Mauser or 8x57.

It has been a long time since I handled one and I do not recall the operating details. Do not poke around at random on it, the action can slam shut hard when you do trip it.
Discussion at

October 12, 2008, 01:15 PM
Thanks Jim. I was able to close it without losing any fingers.
Heres #10. Front of Barrel says M917629 SWITZ. Serial # 28717. Second pic shows what I'm guessing is a makers mark of some sort.

Mike Irwin
October 12, 2008, 01:28 PM
Gun 10 is a pretty good, uncommon, and probably fairly valuable, rifle.

It's a Finnish rework of a Soviet Moisin Nagant. It's an earlier one because it has the octagonal (instead of round) reciever.

The "S" marking on it I believe signifies the Finnish Civil Guard. As I understand it, rifles with this marking are kind of uncommon here.

October 13, 2008, 07:15 AM
The best resource for information on you Mosin-Nagant rifles is 7.62x54r.net (http://7.62x54r.net/).

k Squared
October 13, 2008, 08:45 AM
I'm a complete FNG when it comes to guns

For a FNG you sure have a lot of nice (historic) guns:cool:

October 13, 2008, 10:18 AM
You should be able to close the action on the Hakim by removing the magazine (the latch is at the rear of the mag), and then pulling the triangular top cover to the rear and easing it forward (it will be under spring tension), then replacing the magazine again. These rifles were designed to be clip-loaded from the top of the rifle, but all variations of the Llungman are known to have an appetite for fingers.

October 13, 2008, 05:09 PM
Action closed, all digits intact.

Thanks for the compliment K squared. I'm slowly but surely learning as I go, with the help of everyone here!

October 13, 2008, 05:21 PM
Ok, this one is kind of strange, as there are no serial #'s anywhere that I can find. Pics #2 and 3 depict the only engraving I could find, wit the exception of the letters FJA engraved on left side of stock .

Jim Watson
October 13, 2008, 06:27 PM
No 11 is a 1903-A3, WW II economy model of the 1903 Springfield.
RA 5-43 means the barrel at least was made by Remington in May, 1943. The whole gun might well be a Remington 1903-A3.
FJA stands for Frank J. Atwood, the chief QC inspector for the army in that district.

It has been lightly sporterized by adding the strap on cheek piece seen on some of the other military rifles here, installing a scope sight (serial number and maker are under the front of the scope base) and taking off the handguard (the wood covering the top of the barrel so you don't burn your hand on a hot barrel when making a bayonet attack.) A handguard could be found, but the holes drilled for the scope mount will detract from collector's interest and resale value.

October 13, 2008, 06:37 PM
Thanks Jim. Just realized what you meant about the wood covering missing.

October 13, 2008, 07:00 PM
Ok, heres post dinner gun #12. "ENGLAND" stamped in metal band above trigger guard on left side. Serial number engraved on right side of action (see pic 12b), and more info in pic 12c. This gun is beautiful!

Jim Watson
October 13, 2008, 07:22 PM
No 12 is a British WW II era No. 5 "Jungle Carbine" caliber .303 British. It is the short version of the No 4 infantry rifle. They are pretty much the final developments of the Lee Enfield rifles that first came out in the late 19th century and stayed in British Commonwealth service at least through Korea.

October 13, 2008, 07:27 PM
Gun #12 is a No 5 Mark 1 Lee-Enfield, also known as a "Jungle Carbine", because it was originally designed for troops who would have to fight the Japanese in SE Asia. It's chambered in .303 British, and though they were certainly easier to carry in the jungle, they were not known for accuracy. This one was made at Fazakerly in the UK, in 1944.

October 13, 2008, 07:41 PM
Thanks again Jim. Gun #13 could definitely be used as a boat anchor if it ever becomes inop (heavy). It's not in the best shape, and has some rust on barrel. After some trial and error on some of the other rifles, Im pretty sure pretty sure the bayonette goes with this one..


October 13, 2008, 07:48 PM
Blasphemy! #13 is a Garand M1 rifle made by Springfield Armory, but re-imported by Blue Sky Arms of Arlington, Virginia.

October 13, 2008, 07:57 PM
"Blasphemy! #13 is a Garand M1 rifle made by Springfield Armory, but re-imported by Blue Sky Arms of Arlington, Virginia.
Today 08:41 PM "

I take it the re-importing detraqcts from the value?

October 13, 2008, 08:05 PM
In this particular case, maybe somewhat; most Garands had to be re-imported from overseas (it was the standard US Army rifle during WW2, and couldn't be re-imported without proper paperwork). Blue Sky's Garands have a so-so reputation among shooters, but if yours is a good shooter, it may be in demand. The fact that they stamped their import marks into the side of the barrel in a highly-visible way didn't help; most of the buyers of these rifles prefer to have one that looks as close to 'as-issued" as possible, so most importers make their marks small and put them in a spot where they don't stand out.

October 13, 2008, 08:28 PM
Ok, I can readily admit I know about as much about guns as I do about photography, but I think this ones a real basket case. As you can see in the pics, there are sheet metal screws run through the side of the receiver, as well as the forestock, and the engravings on top of receiver are scratched through (swear it wasn't me) . To top it off, there is a screw running straight down behind the rear of the bolt,preventing any action of the action (Is this thing French or what?).
I'm thinking this thing was re-arsenaled at Sally Struthers school of gunsmithing, or Grandpa swiped it off the hearth at Cracker Barrel!
Gotta go mix another drink after this one ha!

p.s. there is a huge crack in the top of the stock....

October 13, 2008, 08:31 PM
More pics

October 13, 2008, 09:03 PM
#14 is a Lebel M1886/93, made at the St. Etienne Arsenal in france, and used by the French during WW1; these rifles are chambered in 8mm Lebel, which is hard to find. The screw at the back of the bolt would have originally been a flat-headed, blued wood screw, that had clearance for the bolt to pass over it.

October 13, 2008, 09:59 PM
This one appears to be a 12 G shotgun fitted with a ramrod. There is a piece of tape on the stock on which says "fire cap to dislodge plastic in barrel". Not quie sure what that means. I'm assuming this is black powder? Looks like this collection has a little bit of everything...

Jim Watson
October 13, 2008, 10:12 PM
As marked No 15 is a Harrington and Richardson Huntsman 12 gauge muzzleloading shotgun, built on a conventional single barrel shotgun receiver for economy and convenience.

Although a shotgun, it has sights which tells me it was meant for use with slug or ball. There is one state where a muzzleloader must be a smoothbore to be eligible for "primitive weapons" hunting season and this would have been the cheapest approach while the Huntsman was in production.

(They also made Huntsman rifles, which were very popular here for their low price and similar operation to a single barrel shotgun.)

I do not understand the bit about "fire cap to dislodge plastic in barrel." Although firing a cap alone might blow out a light obstruction like a piece of plastic, the question remains, how did the plastic get in there to start with and why did it do it regularly enough that the gun was labeled for it?
The breech plug comes out of these pretty easily and I would think it simpler and quieter just to remove it and push any plastic out with the ramrod.
But people do strange things to guns.

October 13, 2008, 10:23 PM
Thanks for that detailed description Jim. I was going to remove the tape, but decided to leave it in case it might correlate to a safety issue should somebody decide to fire it.
I'm turning in fo the eve, but want to thank everyone again for their time and knowledge, and hopefully I'll be able to post more of my collection tomorrow.

October 14, 2008, 03:14 PM
Ok, this one was pretty straight forward, as it seems to be a reproduction of sorts. It's a Kentuckian model 5009 .45 black powder imported by Armsport,
made in Italy. Has an interesting octogon shaped barrel.
Any idea when this might have been made?

Jim Watson
October 14, 2008, 04:27 PM
Correct, it is a reproduction cap and ball muzzleloading "Kentucky" rifle.
Octagon barrels were pretty much standard in them there days, easier to shape on small shop equipment than round.

Somewhere in the Italian proof test markings - maybe on the bottom flat of the barrel under the stock - there should be a date code. Two letters in a square box is the most usual form. If you see it, post it and I will look up the date. They have been making guns like that for 30 years or more.

October 14, 2008, 08:12 PM
Thanks Jim. The 2 letters in a square box are "AC".

October 14, 2008, 08:23 PM
Might have previously posted this one, but have lost track. this one came out of a cardboard box, and looks new but cannot cofirm. Box also had a spare clip and adjustable rear sights, along with manuals. Look like it was imported from a company in Atlanta. Manual says SKS. Whats the difference between sks and ak47?

October 14, 2008, 08:45 PM
That's a Chinese SKS. Fires the same cartridge as the AK-47 (7.62x39). The SKS was introduced shortly before the AK-47. It has a 10 round integral box mag, whereas the AK has a removable mag. (Some SKSs had higher capacity integral mags and others had removable mags, but 10 round integral is the standard configuration).

October 14, 2008, 09:02 PM
Thanks Chipperman! Gun #18 appears to be a small cal shotgun (410?). Says Midland gun Co---England on left side of barrel, and Armsport Inc, Miami FL on right. Although in excellent shape, seems to be a low quality, high production gun.

Jim Watson
October 14, 2008, 11:12 PM
AC date code on gun No 16 is 1977 manufacture.

In spite of markings for England and Florida, gun No 18 is probably of Russian manufacture at the Baikal plant, sold all over the world by different distributors. Even Remington is selling that same gun now, except 12 gauge only.

Q: Is it MARKED .410? Looks like a bigger gauge than that.

October 15, 2008, 08:11 AM
Hi Jim. Thanks for the info. I could not find any markings anywhere as far as regards to gage . Attached pic should give you a better POR as far as barrel diameter.

October 15, 2008, 08:21 AM
That shotgun (the IZh-18 made for export) appears to have a chamber adaptor installed, allowing you to shoot 410 shells out of a 12-gauge single-shot. If you have a cleaning-rod, you should be able to tap it out from the muzzle.

October 15, 2008, 12:31 PM
Thanks SDC. I took a look, and it appears to be a skinnier tube inside, which runs about half the length of the barrel. Tried tapping it from the inside, but it's pretty snug, so I'll just leave it.

October 15, 2008, 05:30 PM
You have a very nice collection of guns there. Your Grandfather had a good eye for history in what he collected. You might start a biography of this collection.
I see in some of the pictures that trigger locks are used. Those kind of trigger locks were designed primarily for double action revolvers in that the bolt would go behind the trigger. Most guns do not have clearance to do this so instead the bolt is placed in front of the trigger. This could lead to a dangerous condition.
A gun safe or a locked storage box is most of the time a much better way of protecting unauthorized access to these guns.

Take care of these fine pieces of history and thank you for sharing with us

October 15, 2008, 09:33 PM
Thanks for the kind words Gbro. My grandfather gave me my first rifle at 16, and used to take me trap shooting on occasion. He never missed. Me, well thats another story.
It's difficult having more than 40 weapons in my home, as I have to have a "secret room" for security reasons. As far as safety, all are verified unloaded, and I'm sure the keys to the locks are long gone. I'm in the process of finding a "safe house" for them.
Anyways, heres # 19. It's a beautiful Remington Woodsman 30-06. It has a Kowa scope (never heard of the brand). Anyway to tel mfg. date?

Jim Watson
October 15, 2008, 09:53 PM
Remington Model 742 BDL.
Broad serial number blocks are:
1951-1967 1,000-541,000
1968-1975 6,900,000-7,499,999
1975-1978 A6,900,000-A7,499,999
1978-1981 B6,900,000-B7,499,999

There should be some cryptic markings on the left rear of the barrel, just in front of the action. http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/questions/barrelcodes

Failing that, call them up:
If you will call or email us the serial number and model number we can determine the approximate age of your firearm.
Serial numbers were not required until 1968. For models without a serial number, we may be able to determine the age by the 2-3 letters that are stamped on the barrel.
Contact us through our Help Center by email or call us at 800-243-9700 Mon-Fri 9-5 EST.

I have not seen a Kowa rifle scope. Their spotting scopes are pretty much the world standard for target shooters, though. If this rifle scope is anything close, it is a good one.

October 15, 2008, 10:35 PM
Thanks for all the info Jim! Looks to be a 1980. This gun, while easy to identify, is a calibre I have never heard of before. It is a Remington 700 in cal 25-06. its in mint condition. Is this an odball round? or is it known by another name? I saw one on gunsamerica for $1,000, and about fell out of my chair!
Thanks for any info!
signing off.....

Jim Watson
October 16, 2008, 07:52 AM
Gun No 20 is a Remington 700 ADL, which was the least expensive rifle they were making at the time. $1000 is about twice what this one is worth, the one on GA must have been a fancier variation or the seller very optimistic.

.25-06 is the .30-06 case necked down to shoot a .257" bullet. They were made as wildcats, the guns chambered by a gunsmith and the brass formed by the shooter for many years, sometimes known as the .25 Neidner. Remington then started to produce guns and ammo commercially. They sold very well for a while but have been kind of overshadowed by newer gimmick guns.

October 16, 2008, 03:29 PM
Thanks Jim. I guess a little wishful thinking on part as far as the value on the 25-06....
Anyhow, heres #21. It has a pretty low serial # A0219 (assuming this is the serial #), and says Mauser Modelo Argentino 1909, along with some German writing (see pic#2). There is also an oval crest on top of the breech. Has this been sporterized? There is an oval sticker on bottom of forestock saying rifle has been service checked by interarms. Oh, muzzle stamped 7.65.

Jim Watson
October 16, 2008, 03:46 PM
The markings pretty well cover it. It is a Model 1909 cavalry carbine, not the same as the infantry rifle. The action is of '98 Mauser design, the gun actually made by DWM in Germany on contract for Argentina, whose national crest is on top of the action. It has not been sporterized except for the pull-on recoil pad on the buttstock... which will pull off as easy as it went on. The sticker shows it was imported here as surplus by Interarms, of Alexandria, Virginia, sometimes arms supplier to the CIA.

The caliber is 7.65x53 Mauser, which was used by Belgium, Turkey, Argentina, and a few other small Latin countries. One source says Spain, which is news to me. It is not interchangeable with anything else. Ammunition is available but rather expensive.

Read up at:

October 16, 2008, 04:11 PM
Thanks Jim. This one says k98 on the left side of receiver, serial#4224.b. Front scope ring covering up a name which starts with W and ends with A. Tried taking front ring off, but it feels like it was put on with an impact wrench, screws will no budge. Ugly recoil pad and cheek protector removed for your viewing pleasure...

Jim Watson
October 16, 2008, 05:17 PM
No 22 is a K98 Mauser, the German infantry rifle from 1935 through WW II. Caliber 8mm Mauser = 8x57.

The bad news is that this one has been sporterized by drilling and tapping holes for the scope mounts, removal of the top handguard, and shortening of the stock forearm. Therefore the maker's name hidden under the front scope base does not mean a lot to the value anyhow.

October 16, 2008, 06:25 PM
Thanks Jim. It's a shame how a lot of these guns lose their historical/collector value. Is it because there was a large surplus after the war, and the guns could be had for a few bucks? As a kid I remember seeing ads for garands for dirt cheap in the back of some magazine all the time (can't recall the name).

October 16, 2008, 07:18 PM
I was told my another member here that this gun is a MAS, made for the French army at the St Etienne armory. Serial #'s are all different, but gun is in mint shape. Was it rearsenaled somewhere? Is it a 7.62? 1936 is stamped on left side. Is this the model #, or mfg date?

October 16, 2008, 08:25 PM
That one's a MAS ("Manufacture d'Armes St. Etienne") M1936, adopted in 1936 by the French as a replacement for the Lebel rifle you showed earlier; These rifles were originally chambered for the 7.5x54mm MAS cartridge.

October 16, 2008, 08:41 PM
Nothing too fancy here. Just an old Marlin model 56 22 cal rifle. The only lever action gun out of them all. Could not locate any serial #. Possibly from the 50's?

Jim Watson
October 16, 2008, 10:57 PM
Is it because there was a large surplus after the war, and the guns could be had for a few bucks?

The first big wave of WWII surplus guns was in the 1950s and early 1960s. European bolt actions could be had for $10 - $40. I paid $36 for a 1903 Springfield in those days. Before 1968 a Free American could mailorder a gun and have it sent to his doorstep. But the Kennedy killings were the rationale for banning mailorder and out of state sales of guns under the Gun Control Act of 1968. There was no opposition from US gun companies, they were just as glad to see competition from foreign makers and everybody's surplus slowed down.
Over recent years, the Curio and Relic provisions have loosened things up and there has been a second big wave of WW II surplus loosed on the market.

Your Marlin 56 is a child of the same law. Prior to GCA 1968, there was no requirement for a gun to even have a serial number and a lot of inexpensive guns didn't. The Model 56 didn't, the more expensive Model 39A did.
The production run of Model 56s was from 1955 - 1964.

October 17, 2008, 08:14 AM
Thanks alot for the info Jim. Gun # 25 is an Investarms O/U 28g shotgun. Says Sile Inc-Ossian, IN on base of barrel. Having trouble finding any info on this brand.

Jim Watson
October 17, 2008, 09:25 AM
Investarm is an Italian gunmaker, startup in 1975 which makes it a real newcomer there... Beretta has been in business for 400 years.

Sile was the US importer for Investarm and other small Italian companies several years ago.

The 28 gauge is not real common, mostly shot at Skeet and by real dedicated upland bird hunters. But I googled mention of other Investarm 28s, they must have concentrated on the market.

October 17, 2008, 12:33 PM
Thanks Jim.
Gun # 26 is an odd looking over under, with a 410 shotgun barrel on the bottom, and what looks like a .22 on the top. Says Savage model 24-se on the side.
My father saud he shot it when he was a kid, so it should be at least 50 years old.

Jim Watson
October 17, 2008, 01:00 PM
This is another case of what you see is what you get. Savage made the Model 24 "over and under" combination gun for a long time. A co-worker had one that was a WW II jungle survival gun from planes flying The Hump across Burma and North China. Most, like yours, were .22 + .410 but there were some in larger calibers and gauges.

October 17, 2008, 01:32 PM
Thanks Jim.
Gun #27 Says St Etienne on the side, mle 1892. Barrel says MA s1893. Its very heavy for such a small gun (37.5 "). SN's are all different.

October 17, 2008, 03:50 PM
That's a French 1892/27 Berthier Musketoon, should be chambered in 8mm Lebel. Appears to be in original condition, but hard to tell from the pic.

October 17, 2008, 05:54 PM
Thanks Chipperman. Gun #28 is another Hakim rifle. The "action cover" and front sight are different than the first one I posted. Would this just mean different years of manufacture? The bayonette in third pic was in case with gun. Is this the correct bayonette?

October 17, 2008, 08:14 PM
Well, kind-of, sort-of. Picture 28 is of a Ljungman AG42B, the Swedish precursor to the Hakim, and chambered for the 6.5x55mm Swedish cartridge. For all intents and purposes, the rifles work the same. Yes, that's the proper bayonet for the rifle.

October 19, 2008, 10:51 AM
I want to thank everyone here who has helped to educate me in the history/origin of these guns. I decided not to post the remaining 10 or so guns, as most of them are either duplicate (and in some cases triplicates), or are more modern, easy to identify guns.

I want to give a special thanks to Jim Watson for his in numerous, in depth responses, and I officially take back anything negative I have ever said about Alabama :)

October 19, 2008, 02:32 PM
Did I ever enjoy reading this post.
Thanks for posting, both questions as well as answers.
Now how do we get more people to take the trouble to put up such posts?

October 19, 2008, 04:20 PM
Thanks Dutchy. when I first laid all the guns out on the floor, I felt overwhelmingly confused, my mindset pretty much mirroring the topic of this thread. I knew I had to educate myself to a degree. If I get some nudges, I'd be happy to post the rest of the collection..

October 20, 2008, 01:58 PM
what ever you want to call them SARCO has them
the carcanos
the bertier
the argentian 7.65 X 53 is GRAF at $13 a box of 20 brand is PRIVI PARTISIAN
also carcano
I know as I have bought at both places.
when grampa?sporterized them they were worth just what he paid there was no collector value.I know because I had some
DCM 1913 springfield= $10/15
DCM 1917 enfield=$7.50
store carcano= $9.00
store #1 enfield=$10
Grants #5=$13 I bought close out 10 for $130 on Grants credit card.

October 21, 2008, 02:19 PM
Ok, this gun really brought a smile to my face more than the other 39. Took me a minute to figure it out....

Jim Watson
October 21, 2008, 03:39 PM
Lacking any knowledge of the markings, I have to call this one a Communist Chinese air rifle.

October 21, 2008, 06:34 PM
Way to go Jim! 100% correct. It's a communist made side cocking, spring actuated air rifle. Makes almost as much noise as a .22!