modern c&b pistol

[mike6975]

hello gentlemen,we here over at the bp forum have a gun that we have "modernized" and some of us have taken a real liken to.it's a standered c&b revolver with a modern cylinder that uses 45lc bp ammo of the shelf,and has the f.p.s. and muzzle energy equivalent to modern day 45acp ammo(i'll provide proof if one ask).i'm not askin to change anyone one mine by far,just thought one should know that those fellas are still alive and well out there,and we put alot of thought and love out there.



Respectfully,

mike

[w_houle]

You can get a .45 acp cylinder for the kirst. I don't know if you can mill the cylinder for use with moon clips, or which ones would work if you did, but it would make loading them easy.

[noelf2]

Ok, I don't mean to be overly critical and I don't mean to offend, but your post could be a bit misleading for someone that doesn't know much about bp firearms. There's also a danger that someone might try to use modern 45lc ammo in a gun like that snubby (which could be a deadly mix) thinking that the conversion cylinders are "modern" cylinders that can handle modern ammo pressures.

To start, I wouldn't call those R&D and Kirst conversion cylinders "modern" cylinders. They were designed for cowboy action ammo only. Cowboy action pressures and power are on a par with the capabilities of the single action revolvers and rifles of the mid to late 1800's (hardly modern).

Are you saying that you are getting fps equal to 45 acp with "off the shelf" bp cowboy action ammo through that snubby? I don't think that a full case of compressed fffg will even get a chance for a full burn out of a snubby like that. A good portion of the powder will be ejected unburnt with the bullet, and will be lucky to get 700fps in my opinion (but it probably would get close to 900 fps with a full 8" barrel on a '58 remi). Goex makes bp cowboy action ammo, but I don't think they make it to clock in at normal 45 acp power and speeds. Neither does Magtech or any other brand of smokeless cowboy action ammo that I'm aware of. Now you may be able to roll your own smokeless 45lc loads and push it up to around 900 fps in that snubby, but I'm sure that R&D and Kirst don't recommend it. In fact, I know that they only recommend one or two brands of cowboy action ammo, probably because they are on the low power end, not sure.

I have an R&D conversion for my pietta '58 remi, and I do reload for it against the recommondations of the manufacturer. I either use bp or I use Unique, and try to keep the power and pressure down to the mid and low end of the cowboy action levels so I don't turn the cylinder into a grenade.

That said, I have no doubt that snubby (using the recommended ammo) will knock a bad guy down for good. I also think that, if you can get over the limits of a single action revolver, it would be an ok home defense weapon but not a good choice for a personal carry weapon. A Pietta remi costs around $200 to $250 and the Kirst and R&D clyinders cost between $240 and $300. So, to configure a gun like this would cost around $475 (if you include shipping costs and hack off the barrel yourself). For a collector or a hobbyist (like me) that's just the cost of getting what I want. For someone interested in home or personal defense, that isn't the way to go at all (IMHO).

[mike6975]

check out my post here and i also said bp only ammo in my original post.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305789

even if it's a snubby tell me you'd wanna get hit by a flame and ball at 10' out that would leave a big smokin hole in you.


Respectfully,


mike

[w_houle]

I would think that by cowboy loads that they would mean that you shoot nothing with copper on it; not because the cylinder can't take any pressure, but because the rifling on the barrel is too aggressive for copper jacketed bullets. What the effect of jacketed bullets do to chamber pressure is unknown to me, but have ran SAAMI spec lrn ammunition through my conversion cylinder just fine.
Now as far as the .45 acp in a conversion cylinder, I have no idea what you would use to load that. The .45 acp has a chamber pressure of 21,000 psi (c.u.p.) to load that to a point to where the chamber pressure of it matches the .45 long colt of 14,000 psi (c.u.p.) you would have to lighten the loading of it substantially: Either that or the cylinders can work just fine under pressure just so long as your throwing lead.

[noelf2]

Mike - Heck no I wouldn't !!! :eek: I know the damage a bp revolver can do. It did wonders during and post civil war. IMO, it's just not a contender considering today's technology and the cost associated with putting a little snubby like that together. By the way, what does the Kirst cylinder pin retainer look like on the gun, I haven't seen one. If it's low profile, I might like to take the loading lever off my remi.

w_houle - It's not just a copper jacket issue. There are also maximum fps restrictions in the cowboy action competitions. I believe the cowboy action max is around 900 fps, but is generally around 700 or a bit higher in practice. I don't think any of the manufacturers of the cowboy ammo strive to reach the maximum. So, off the shelf cowboy ammo will not have equivalent specs as a factory smokeless 45acp round today. Kirst says on their website that: "All Kirst Cartridge Konverters™ are precision CNC machined in the USA from 4140 Steel and heat-treated. The cartridge conversions are rated "For Black Powder or equivalent loads only," which includes the current Cowboy Loads on the market." To me, that means keep the pressure down to bp levels because the "cylinder" is only rated for that, not because the gun it fits into can't shoot copper jacket (even though it can't).

edit/update: Mike, I just read the posts on your link. Those specs came from an 8" barrel. I imagine you'll have to knock that down a hundred or two with the snubby. Still, a 250gr LRNFP bullet at 600+ fps would hurt, a lot!!

[mike6975]

yes it would noel!,good to see your from va.and your right about losing the f.ps.,i still wouldn't want to get hit by one of those lil guys:eek: catchin clothes on fire and a smokin hole in your gut

[Erich]

Noel, if you're still interested in seeing what the Kirst cylinder retainer clip looks like on an 1858, there's a photo at this commercial site that sells them (most of the way down the page):

http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/konverteracc.html

[noelf2]

Thanks Erich...

Hmmm, looks weird IMO. Not sure I like that clip. Has anyone else engineered something?

[Tom2]

Looks to me like a clever way to start with a no paperwork BP C&B revolver and convert it into a CF revolver with no FFL records involved. However like the man said, add up the costs and it is more appealing to cowboys or reenactors or historians versus something that you would invest in for normal SD use. I had thought of getting one for an Uberti I have but then I figure, I don't do cowboy and I have modern wheelguns, why pay for the cylinder?