View Full Version : Less than Lethal?

March 16, 2008, 07:01 PM
3rds - 12 Gauge Fin Stabilized Rubber Rocket
[ALS1202-HV] $17.95

This is 12 Gauge High Velocity Fin Stabilized Rubber Rocket Ammo. This ammo is manufactured by A.L.S. Technologies, the leading producer of Less Than Lethal Ammunition. This ammo is rated as the most accurate and effective Less Than Lethal 12 Gauge ammo and is Currently being used by US Marines in Iraq. This is a direct fire 12 gauge round which fires a 115 grain, 80 durometer rubber projectile. This allows escalation of force from a safe distance prior to use of lethal means. The Rubber Rocket accommodates tactical situations from 10 to 45 yards producing controlled and directed incapacitation by blunt impact trauma and excruciating pain through the transfer of 92 foot pounds of energy by each projectile. DANGER: This ammunition has a high probability of being lethal or producing Severe Damage at a distance less than 12 feet. This ammo is a 2 3/4" shell.

"currently used by US marines in Iraq."
Really? Anyone with first hand knowledge of this?

Boris Bush
March 16, 2008, 07:30 PM
I am not a Marine, but we (Army) used them as well as "rubber" buckshot. Sometimes when people were shot with them they would fall, and just lay there. Probably hurt so bad they thought they would die or were dead. After they realized they were not dead they would get up and run. Another good way to get rid of a crowd real fast is to pop a smoke and tell everyone before you do it to put on gas masks. They know what chemical weapons do and run real fast if they think they are being used. There was a few times we had nowhere near enough ammo to come back alive if it got bad, and one smoke grenade used properly can and did save the day and our hides.

March 18, 2008, 08:24 AM
One of several brands of Less Lethal rounds in use. They would be type classifed has:

12GA Nonlethal Point Control (M1012) DODIC AA51

12GA Fin Stabilized DODIC AA31

Producer will vary.

Double Naught Spy
March 18, 2008, 08:52 AM
It ain't less than lethal if it can kill people.

March 18, 2008, 09:44 AM
It ain't less than lethal if it can kill people.

This is part of the continued debate on these types of munitions. The Military still often refers to this type of round has Non-Lethal. Less Then Lethal is also often used.

Less Lethal is the best description. Used properly, these rounds are just that Less Lethal. Improperly employed they can and have been lethal. Has such they are best used only buy LE/Mil, not private citizens. Agencies that do use them need to have a well documented training program and strict rules of engagement for their use.

I am waiting for a release to post several articles from the Rappaprt Institute and the Department of Justice to my site. Till then you can Google:

“Impact Munitions: Data Base of Use and
by Ken Jubbs and David Klinger

Crowd Control That Can Kill:
Can American Police Get a Grip on Their New, “Less-Lethal” Weapons Before They Kill Again?
By Christopher Stone, Kennedy School of Government,
Brian Buchner and Scott Dash, Police Assessment Resource Center