View Full Version : 410 gauge AR 15

October 3, 2007, 07:28 PM
Surfing the net yesterday and found a 410 gauge shotgun based on the AR15. It is manufactured in Turkey by Safir Arms. The web site is www.safirarms.com.

Has anyone seen one?

October 5, 2007, 07:25 PM
I don't believe it can be imported since it's not considered a sporting shotgun.

February 24, 2009, 07:54 PM
rules have changed and they are here. I picked mine up last week and love it. I even saw one at the crossroads gun show on the 20th of feb.

chris in va
February 24, 2009, 08:31 PM
That's the first I've heard of that. Thought the Saiga was the only thing like that.

I don't know how they can claim "700m/s" from a 410 though. That's some hot ammo!

February 24, 2009, 08:38 PM

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Current Bid $895.00 No Reserve! Started at $895.00

for $995.00

Quantity 1 # of bids 1 Bid History
Time left 1 Days, 2 Hours +
15 minute rule Location LEVITTOWN, PA 19054
BUCKS County
Started 2/18/2009 10:52:13 PM ET (This is a 7 day auction)
Ends On or After 2/25/2009 10:52:13 PM ET (Official Auction Time)
Seller 21polar A+(11)
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High bidder spartan360 A+(6)
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Description for Item # 123280777

SAFIR T14 410 SHOTGUN, IMPORTED BY ATI,VERY UNUSUAL AR15 STYLE,HARD TO FIND... 2 6ROUND MAGS...please ask any questions before bidding...Thanks

Pictures for Item # 123280777

Hahahahahahaahahahaha...... :D

roy reali
February 24, 2009, 11:22 PM
What in the heck would you use a 410 gauge shotgun for? Dangerous dragonflies, marauding moths, overly-aggressive hummingbirds? One more thing, where would you find ammo for a 410 gauge?

February 24, 2009, 11:26 PM
OK, I have to ask.................what does BWA mean? I know what HAHAHAHAHAHA is, but what is BWAHAHAHAHAHA ? Am I missing something?

February 24, 2009, 11:36 PM
hahahaha is a chuckle...
Kinda pronounced boo-wahhh-hahaha... which is a good deep down belly laugh with a little evil tinge to it:D

February 25, 2009, 12:13 AM
This thing seems useless as a shotgun: perhaps there are jurisdictions where semi-auto rifles are banned, but semi-auto shotguns are OK. Does it accept a standard 5.56mm upper assembly with little, or no modifications?

February 25, 2009, 04:15 AM
Kinda pronounced boo-wahhh-hahaha

sometimes mua or mwa is substituted for bwa

it usually signifies an evil laugh

muahahahaha *puff of smoke and gone*

February 25, 2009, 06:16 AM
700m/s" from a 410 though.
Me, neither. The highest velocity that I have seen published for .410 ammo is for slugs at 1830 fps. 700m/s is over 2100 fps. Whose ammo is that?
The first thing that struck me, though, was cost of feeding the little beast. .410 ammo is not cheap. Those Winchester slugs at 1830 fps are a buck a piece. Shotshells for the .410 are generally as expensive 12 ga. or even a bit more expensive.
Might be fun, though, to see those little hulls popping out of that gun.

February 25, 2009, 07:34 AM
If they came out with a 12 gauge that would be onto something. But in .410 I would rather have a real AR and I will keep my Saiga 12.

February 25, 2009, 07:33 PM
11 410's in an enclosed space within 10-15 feet would be pretty effective nonetheless....

but more of a luxury rather than a necessity, especially with that kind of price tag

February 25, 2009, 08:26 PM
Since I have enough Saigas the next step would be the AR line.
a few of my saigas
plus the modded Saiga 20

and the Saiga 410 compared to the Safir T14

February 25, 2009, 10:38 PM
"What in the heck would you use a 410 gauge shotgun for? Dangerous dragonflies, marauding moths, overly-aggressive hummingbirds? One more thing, where would you find ammo for a 410 gauge?"

I rarely hunt doves or quail with anything other than my 11-48 .410. .410 CALIBER ammo is widely available.

roy reali
February 25, 2009, 10:47 PM
A .410 shotgun is very usefull. But a 410 gauge shotgun would be almost useless.

February 25, 2009, 11:33 PM
When I first started hunting doves, which is a HUGE deal in many parts of the rural South, I went to an opening day hunt on a friend's farm. I drew a stand next to Old Man Cornwall.

Mr. Cornwall hunted with an old Winchester 412. The Model 412 was a scaled down version of the famous Winchester Model 12 in .410.

Being a kid, and new to shotgunning, I was loaded up with with my father's 12 gauge and 5 (count them) boxes of ammo. The legal limit for doves was 12 birds. But doves can fly at 60mph, and often do it in something more than a predictable path. They are not easy prey.

As Mr. Cornwall and I walked to our stands, I asked him a few questions.

"What gauge is that little shotgun, Mr. Cornwall?"

"It's a four-ten, son."

"You expect to hit anything with it?"

"I wouldn't be here with it if I didn't."

"Where's your ammo?"

"In my pocket."

"How much did you bring?"

"Twelve shells."

"Is that all??"

"Well, the limit is twelve birds, son."

At that point, I didn't want to make the man feel like a fool, so I shut up and walked over to my stand. That afternoon, I shot three and a half boxes of 12 gauge shells and my shoulder was sore. But those 87 shells earned me 10 birds.

As the sun started setting, we headed back to the farmhouse. We tallied up the birds, and I was surprised to see Mr. Cornwall had twelve birds. At this point, I realized that Mr. Cornwall must be something of a good shot. This time, because I didn't want to make myself feel like a fool, I didn't say anything.

Later on, I told my friend's father what I had witnessed. I can hear his reply to this day as if he had just repeated it moments ago. He said, "That's the only gun Old Man Cornwall owns. You should never doubt a man that only owns one gun. He probably knows how to use it."

Don't sell the .410 short. It is a very effective round in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

February 26, 2009, 05:48 AM
FalPhil: Thank you. That was a great story, well told. Reminded me of some of Bob Ruark's stuff or Corey Ford's Lower Forty stories.

February 26, 2009, 07:12 AM
You know these people who knock the 410 have not yet taken me up on an offer I made them. If the 410 won't hurt anything then let me take a couple of shots at them and prove to me once and for all that it will not hurt. They don't seem to be as willing with their actions and they are with their words.

I have hunted and will continue to hunt small game and javelina with my 410's. I do own larger shotguns but they are for different activities.

roy reali
February 26, 2009, 08:51 AM
You all know that there is a big difference between a .410 and a 410 gauge. If anyone here has a copy of Cartridges of the World, I challenge you to even find reference to 410 gauge ammo.

February 26, 2009, 11:12 AM
I think we all can agree on ".410" AND the fact that getting shot by one will most certainly ruin your day. Now how about that THOUSAND DOLLAR price tag? Any one else think it WAY to high?

February 26, 2009, 01:07 PM
$1k, not much different than any other specialty AR. Obviously I am prejudice though since I already have my T14. Having had a chance to shoot it I feel it is worth every penny. It looks good next to the Bennelli shotguns which cost even more.

roy reali
February 26, 2009, 03:06 PM
You say that you havehunted small game with a 410 gauge? How close did you have to get?

February 26, 2009, 03:41 PM
FALPhil, really cool story, my dad tells this one all the time.

When he was in the landscape business his building was 3 or so miles away from our house, in the late 70's it was normal to shoot at his building, now I probably wasn't even a thought yet when this happened but they (the other business owners in the plot of property) would have a turkey shoot. Winner gets a turkey, so everyone is out there with their shotguns blowing away at clay and anything else that goes airborne. Then the rifles came out and the match went to "Who can hit the target at the farthest distance?" So, the gunfire of 30-06's .308's, .223's brought Old Man McCracken out of his house on the hill across the highway. So he comes up and everyone says a nice hello and how are things going to him. And McCracken asks whats going on with all the guns and they said they are doing long distance target shooting for a turkey. My father asks if he would like to have a go and presents his Winchester 94 30-30 to him. McCracken replies, no thanks let me go and get my gun. So McCracken comes back in a few minutes with a case and that's it. He opens the case and everyone comes to find it is a basic M1 Garand with stock sights and what have you, a really basic one. He brings it up and sights on a coffee can 1/4 mile or so down range and just holds it up and stares down the barrel, everyone says "you cant shoot that with out a scope, your 60 years old!" He carefully loads one single round in the chamber, no full stripper clip or anything, just one round, and stands there for a few seconds and the barell is shaking all over and it stopped, i guess it felt like the world stopped, and all you heard was that M1 firing that round off and all you see is a coffee can exploding a 1/4 mile down range. He just simply put the gun back in the case, and as he was walking back to his house he said, "I would rather have my turkey cooked, could you guys do that for me?"

My dad tells it with a little more enthusiasm, it is a good one though!

February 26, 2009, 04:36 PM
Kl9, You fergit the part where he licks his thumb and shines the front site...:D
Good story...

February 26, 2009, 05:18 PM
when it comes to small game, most shooting takes place at 35yds and in. I would estimate the average shots take place around 30yds. Dove and quail are around 35yds to 40yds. Now what I will not argue is the 12ga will reach out for farther ranges. I have not attempted to hunt pheasant with my 410's. I have only used 20's and 12 for them. Duck and geese require the 12ga in 3 or 3 1/2 just to have the payload in steel shot required to bring down the tougher birds.
I can tell you that my hunting buddies really hate when I take the 410's in the field. They can not stand being out shot by a 410. Where as I don't consider the 410 a kids gun but rather a more advanced shooters gun. If you are able to shoot well the 410 can really bring home the game. Early dove season you will find me afield with my O/U 410 as it just seems to naturally swing and get on target much easier than any other shotgun I own.
It should also be noted that I reload my own shells (12, 20 and 410 anyway). I believe that using a consistant speed round that is suited to your shotgun shooting style is the key.
You will notice that at no time have I said the 410 is superior or equal in the hands of an average shooter. It takes a certain level of skill to use a 410 effectively and that is why I feel the 12ga is so popular, it makes up for sloppy shooting skills and those who don't want to wait for the ideal shots. I know the last statement might offend some but there is a reason they feel the need for so much excessive payload to take something as light as a dove, quail, rabbit and most predators (animal types).
just my opinions andyou are of course welcome to disagree.:)

roy reali
February 26, 2009, 07:10 PM
Are you taling about 410 gauge shotguns?

February 26, 2009, 07:18 PM
The Safir and most American 410 shotguns are of course caliber not gauge. The 410 would equate to something in the 67 or 68 gauge. European countries run a bunch of different gauges that we don't even get to see here. Most of them are considerably smaller than our normal shtogun. Without doing the math a 410 gauge shotgun would have a bore about 1/4" in diameter, my guess, and not worth the time to figure it out.

February 26, 2009, 10:16 PM
KC - that story made em smile. If this thread has anything, it sure has some good stories.

February 26, 2009, 10:29 PM
Had they made this when I was a kid I would have been agonizingly obsessed with them so as to have done even worse in school than I did...:o Since I cut my teeth on a .410 bolt action I would have had visions of the millions of doves, pigeons and pheasant that would fall from the skies straight into the pot already cleaned!:D

roy reali
February 26, 2009, 11:06 PM
You do make a lot of sense. I agree with you that a .410 shotgun is a viable option. But the OP states that he found a 410 gauge AR type shotgun. A 410 gauge shotgun would be about as usefull a .22 rimfire birdhot rounds.

February 27, 2009, 12:08 AM
I have pretty much given up on trying to get people to understand that it is not correct to refer to a 410 gauge. Far too many people either don't know or don't care to know much about the 410 shotguns. Sad but at least it makes for some good deals on old used ones. The tough part is finding an old one in good shape.
I am a sucker for a gimmick 410 shotgun. If they would make a Garand in 410 I would probably own one of them as well. I had one of the snake charmer 410's back in the 80's, today I wish I had never sold it. I used to carry it under my cammo suits when deer hunting to pick up the ocassional squirrel when things were slow.

February 27, 2009, 05:22 AM
t takes a certain level of skill to use a 410 effectively
+1. I just reread these posts. That comment is certainly true. While frequently recommended to beginners because of generally lighter firearms and less recoil, the .410 caliber SGs have been accurately called expert's guns because of the inherent limitations that the small shot charge imposes.
I disagree, but only mildly, with the idea that the 12 ga. is so popular because it makes up for sloppy shooting. However much that may be true, the denser pattern of the 12 ga. at any range makes the possiblity of a humane kill more certain. This is especially true at distances where a .410 pattern may be thin enough to have bird sized holes in it. If we need two pellets to kill a grouse at X yards, then the 12 may be a better choice with twice as many pellets in the pattern.

February 27, 2009, 06:09 AM
You do make a lot of sense. I agree with you that a .410 shotgun is a viable option. But the OP states that he found a 410 gauge AR type shotgun.

You're being asinine, and I think you know it, too.

February 27, 2009, 07:49 AM
If we need two pellets to kill a grouse at X yards, then the 12 may be a better choice with twice as many pellets in the pattern.

Exactly why I use my 12's for duck, geese and larger birds. I am not trying to say the 410 should replace all shotguns just that it gets a bad rap. I personally like not having to spend a lot of time taking excessive amounts of shot out of the meat of small game just to make it edible. The 410 has limited uses and when used properly is more than effective.

I just think it is hilarious that people use the excuse the there are more rouds available for the 12 than the 410. Who really uses door buster rounds or dragons breath for anything more than fun?, which is what they say the 410 is only good for.

roy reali
February 27, 2009, 08:53 AM
But, wouldn't a larger bird be hit with more pellets at any given distance shot at with any given sized shotgun?

February 27, 2009, 11:49 AM
bigger birds equal bigger bone and a need for larger shot. Larger shot would equal fewer per round. Also larger birds are generally taken at longer distances. Waterfowl here are required to be taken with non toxic shot, usually lighter than lead pellet for pellet. All things combined, more pellets are required to bring down the larger birds. You have to use the right firearm for the intended prey. I don't know anyone using 50cal rifles for rabbit, at least the ones they intend to eat:) I use my 410's for dove, quail, rabbit, predatory animals and rifled slugs for javelina. This is where the 410 works best for me. The rounds are easier to carry in the field and the shotguns are generally lighter making them easier to carry also. Now add in the cool factor of an AR platform (which is advertised as one of the easiest point and shoot platforms available) with challenge of the 410 and you have a great hunting experience in my book.

March 9, 2009, 06:09 PM
A little time on my hands so I went to the range. I was out shooting clays this past weekend and managed 48 out of 50 clays with the Safir. This got me to thinking about the patterning of the pellets and of course you can't go to the range with a 410 without taking some slugs.

Willie Lowman
March 13, 2009, 05:06 PM
Boy do I ever want me one of them there four ten gauge scatter rifles!!!

I'd even pay one thousand dollars fer it!

A 410 gauge shotgun would be about as usefull a .22 rimfire birdhot rounds.

But what is a BIRDHOT round?

March 13, 2009, 05:13 PM
cool thing is they have anounced that a 556 and 57 upper will be available for them within the next year. This will make it one awesome shotgun rifle combo.

July 14, 2011, 09:07 AM
Dear friends,

The .410 AR Gun being discussed here is made by us, Safir Arms.
This is a unique AR-15 gun. No one has it in USA. It is not a clone, it is not a look alike, like some others in the market. It is true AR-15 Compatible and interchangeable with other AR Platform Guns. The gun is for big game hunting at 300 Yards, Home defense and Style. It is not Ugly looking piece of Iron. It is a style, must hold in the hand to feel the difference.

Saifr Arms is located in Willingboro NJ with two additional factories operating in Turkey.

The gun does not cost $1000 as someone wrote above. The gun can be purchase from us or any of our dealers at MSRP $799.00. if you have questions we love to answer.

here are some pictures,


July 14, 2011, 09:19 AM
T-14 Classic


T-14 AR-15 compatible Upper

T-14 Classic S

T-14 Compact-S

July 14, 2011, 10:35 AM
I guess the 410 Shotgun is for the sloppy shooters who can't do it all with a smoothbore .22 Garden Gun...

July 14, 2011, 10:50 AM
After over three-years this thread is starting to smell like SPAM!!!
The gun is for big game hunting at 300 Yards
Youbetcha... with all those pics, where's the one of a killer group in a 300-yd target?

MC 1911
July 14, 2011, 11:31 AM
MKA 1919 is the same thing in 12 ga. We have 2 in stock where I work.

July 14, 2011, 05:02 PM
The gun is for big game hunting at 300 Yards


July 14, 2011, 05:23 PM
I was out shooting clays this past weekend

Pasture clays or actual trap or skeet or sporting clays?

With the handle and sights, it is about as useful as t*ts on a bull

If you want a oddball, fun, plinking gun, have at it - but for any type of serious use, there are better choices

Dave McC
July 14, 2011, 10:14 PM
Closed, due to the aroma of fresh Spam wafting about....