View Full Version : Anything Smaller than a .410?

October 2, 2007, 11:17 AM
I have a friend says he has a 9MM trapdoor shotgun.I haven't seen it.He said it was made in the 1850's.When I told him that it doesn't make sense he promptly said "you calling me a liar?"I didn't think they made shells until about 1870.Can't see how a trapdoor muzzle loader would work.He says it is a smoothbore.Any body have any guess as to what he might have?

October 2, 2007, 01:01 PM
Recall somebody offering a .22LR smoothbore a few years back.

October 2, 2007, 01:25 PM
I believe it was marlin that had the bolt action .22 smoothbore.

October 2, 2007, 02:30 PM
Yes, in the past there were 22lr, 9mm and a few other shotguns type firearms. Also many rimfires in what are now centerfire calibers.

October 2, 2007, 07:11 PM
Marlin still makes a .22lr smoothebore, and a .22mag also.

October 2, 2007, 07:22 PM
my dad has a .22 remington routledge bore (smoothe)for .22shotshells

October 2, 2007, 07:40 PM
Sure, they made several 9MM shotguns, both in center fire and rim fire. And would you believe 7MM, 310, .32 rimfire 6MM, and the 20 Wingo. Your friends gun may date to the 1850's but none of these shells were used in it until the 1920's except maybe the .32 rimfire in the late 1880's.
Your friend may have a old trapdoor that was bored out and re chambered. This was a common thing to do with these old surplus guns to make them usable, but , 9mm,I don't think so. .410 or 20 gauge I can believe, but if it is a old trapdoor, then why chamber it with a European cambering?

Dave McC
October 2, 2007, 08:31 PM
9mm "Garden Guns" were made and used. Like the 410, they were meant to eliminate pests where noise and overshot were not wanted. IIRC, these came in both rimfire and certerfire versions.

There was a 32 gauge also. A little more than the 410 but not much.

October 2, 2007, 08:41 PM
Last time I looked at a Navy Arms catalog (15-20 years ago), they still had 9mm shotshells in both rimfire and centerfire. But considering that the self-contained cartridge was invented in the 1860s, you friend may just be wrong about the age of his shotgun. Lots of cheap small gauge shotguns imported and made for pest control up until the 1960s. Navy arms sold them until the 1960s or early 1970s. Many were made in Belgium, Spain, Italy, South America, etc. They cost about as much as a pellet gun, so they were never intended as a prime quality item.

I forgot all about Wingo!! Skeet in the living room! What were they thinking???

October 2, 2007, 09:53 PM
when i was stationed in morrocco in the early seventies the only gun a civlian could own was a 9mm shotgun. his maybe that old but reworked to a 9mm. bobn

October 2, 2007, 10:01 PM
I dunno, maybe I am missing something, but every Trap Door I have EVER seen was chambered for 45-70. I have some SERIOUS doubts any 9 MM round could have been chambered in one unless it was rebarrelled, Not to mention the fact in the 1850's there were NO cartridge guns made. So the 1850's claim is BS and as far as I can renmeber the 45-70 didn't appear til 1873 with inside priming.

October 2, 2007, 10:13 PM
do you need a smoothbore for ratshot? (out of a 22lr?

October 2, 2007, 10:24 PM
No, but out of a rifled barrel the effective range is only about 7 to 10 feet. Even at that close range .22 shot shells will have a doughnut pattern( hole in the middle). BTY The old Winchester rat shot is next to useless, if you have a use for .22 shot shells then use CCI's They are a little better. I do know for a fact that even the CCI's will not penetrate a single layer of denim at 15 feet, and please don't ask me how I know.

roy reali
October 3, 2007, 07:53 AM
A 410 gauge!:D

October 3, 2007, 07:32 PM
in the 1850's there were NO cartridge guns made.

Actually the .22 made it's debut in 1857 and the .44 rimfire in 1860. 9mm trapdoor? I don't think so. He's either jerking your chain or badly mistaken.

October 3, 2007, 08:06 PM
32 Gauge is still around. Fiocchi still makes 32 ga ammo. Fairly close to the 28 in performance.

Not to be confused with 36 gauge, which is actually the 410 bore. 410 is really 67.5 ga but some euros refer to it as 36 ga and some guns are marked as such. :confused:

My 22 smoothie shoots usable patterns with CCI shotshells. I have whacked pigeons with it sitting on rafters in warehouses. Far safer than using a pellet gun.