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briang2ad
September 13, 2007, 07:22 PM
IS it really a lack of case head support (mostly in he 40/45)

OR

Is it because there are so many Glocks and you hear more about it?

JohnKSa
September 13, 2007, 08:30 PM
There are a lot of them out there.
The larger chambers work the brass pretty hard if you use hot loads which makes reloading more risky. Even more so if you use lead bullets.
Even Dean Speir states that they are safe with good quality factory ammunition (just what Glock says.)

44 Deerslayer
September 14, 2007, 11:18 AM
In some circumstances the Glock can fire when it's out of battery. This is more likely to cause a case blowout than the loose chamber.

SpectreBlofeld
September 14, 2007, 03:28 PM
I think it's a combination of four factors:

- .40 is already loaded to high pressures
- unsupported chamber
- firing out of battery may occur
- popularity of the firearm.

I don't care for the design; even with good ammo, case setback can occur of the same round has been chambered more than a few times, and substantially raise the pressures in a round where the pressures are already high. And setback isn't something novices generally are aware of.

KurtC
September 14, 2007, 04:02 PM
I concur with what has already been stated above. Since the KB's occur in all models and calibers, the problem is most likely caused by firing out of battery.

The weak frame, polygonal rifling and lack of chamber support just add to it.

greenparrot
September 14, 2007, 04:03 PM
Glocks are safe with good quality factory ammunition


Most KB cases involve improperly reloaded ammunition.

Hard Ball
September 14, 2007, 04:08 PM
"In some circumstances the Glock can fire when it's out of battery. This is more likely to cause a case blowout than the loose chamber."

+ 3 This is true and it may happen wih factory loaded FMJ ammunition.

Hard Ball
September 14, 2007, 04:12 PM
"Glocks are safe with good quality factory ammunition "

No, they are not! KABOOMS can occur with good quality factory loaded ammunition.

greenparrot
September 14, 2007, 04:16 PM
No, they are not! KABOOMS can occur with good quality factory loaded ammunition.

Kabooms are very rare... you mainly hear more about Glock KBs because there are simply MORE Glocks out there than any other handgun. MOST KBs occur with reloaded ammo though.

Kabooms from factory ammo is even more rare. And if that even does happen... Glock and the ammo manufacturer will pay for the damages.

Other guns do KB too.

Alleykat
September 14, 2007, 04:16 PM
Almost all Glock KBs have been with .40s. You'll rarely hear of one in .45ACP or 9mm. As more reloaders "discover" .357 Sig, you'll start seeing some setback-induced KBs.

Glocks are no more susceptible to setback than any other semi-auto handgun.

There are more Glocks in use now than the number of 1911s manufactured.

A googolplex is a number larger than the number of raindrops that strike the Earth's surface in a century.

JohnKSa
September 14, 2007, 04:22 PM
No, they are not! KABOOMS can occur with good quality factory loaded ammunition.Perhaps you should take it up with Dean Speir.

Here's the quote from his website (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/gindex2.html).

The Glock Mantra:
Glocks are good.
Glocks are great.
Jus' don't shoot reloads
like the manuals state.

Furthermore, even good ammunition makers don't put out perfect products all the time. There's a sticky at the top of this forum to prove it. And we also know that in the wake of some kB!s (including non-Glock kB!s) that Federal redesigned their .40S&W case to be stronger. Basically an admission by one of the biggest ammo makers in the U.S. that a lot of the initial kB!s were at least partially the result of weak cases.

In other words, when you do have an incident with ammunition from a manufacturer with a good reputation, it's not always safe to blame the gun.

Finally, I'm convinced that most kB!s with "good quality factory ammunition" are the result of kB! induced amnesia. I've seen this happen in person after a shooter ruined his 9mm Glock with what his friends later confided were reloads. Somehow the kB! must have affected his memory because in the time it took him to walk from the firing line to the range office he had totally forgotten what kind of ammunition he had been using... :rolleyes:

As far as out of battery firing, that's a possibility with virtually any semi-auto, particularly if the firing pin channel becomes clogged. That can happen from improper maintenance. The Glock design may or may not be more prone to out of battery firing, I can't tell. My testing with several Glock pistols indicates that the gun will not fire (using the internal mechanism--that's barring a breakage or jammed firing pin) unless the locking surfaces of the barrel and slide are in contact. By the time the barrel has tilted down far enough to unlock, the firing pin can't reach the primer under normal circumstances. Heavy wear, abuse or damage to the gun could change this situation.

SpectreBlofeld
September 14, 2007, 05:06 PM
Glocks are no more susceptible to setback than any other semi-auto handgun.

And that's true. I mentioned it because it seems to affect .40 cal more sharply due to the design of the casing in regards to the pressure.

MTMilitiaman
September 14, 2007, 05:10 PM
In some circumstances the Glock can fire when it's out of battery. This is more likely to cause a case blowout than the loose chamber.

This just simply isn't true, or at least any more so for the Glock than any other modified-Browning delayed-recoil operated handgun.

Consider the safety requirements necessary to import a firearm into the United States, consider the safety requirements necessary to get a firearm adopted by a large and prestigious law enforcement organization like the FBI, consider all the militaries around the world--Austria, Norway, Sweden, among others, and use by the very professional German GSG-9 and Israeli Special Forces--that have tested the Glock for safety in nearly every conceivable way, and none of them have been able to make the Glock fire out of battery.

The weak frame,

HAHAhaha...surely you jest?

TeHeTeHe. Weak frame. That's a good one.

That's why the Glock frame is capable of taking steady forms of abuse that reduce other popular handguns to rubble. It's why Glocks run hundreds of thousands of rounds and remain serviceable. Its why Glocks are so popular--because they are weak. Naturally that is a benefit to those trusting their lives to their weapons, and would be why so many knowledgeable professionals who do so pick Glock.

Naturally...

Weak frame. Heh.

As far as out of battery firing, that's a possibility with virtually any semi-auto, particularly if the firing pin channel becomes clogged. That can happen from improper maintenance. The Glock design may or may not be more prone to out of battery firing, I can't tell. My testing with several Glock pistols indicates that the gun will not fire (using the internal mechanism--that's barring a breakage or jammed firing pin) unless the locking surfaces of the barrel and slide are in contact. By the time the barrel has tilted down far enough to unlock, the firing pin can't reach the primer under normal circumstances. Heavy wear, abuse or damage to the gun could change this situation.

Ahhhhh [sigh of relief].

The voice of reason is refreshing...

SpectreBlofeld
September 14, 2007, 05:10 PM
Great article on the subject at The Gun Zone:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html#which

JohnKSa
September 14, 2007, 05:23 PM
Great article on the subject at The Gun Zone:I find Mr. Speir to be far more objective than many give him credit for.

From Mr. Speir's website:

"What can I do to prevent a kB!?

Shoot only new factory ammunition out of your Glock. This is what Glock, Inc. recommends, as do several members of Glock-L. Shooting reloads voids your factory warranty."

The article on out of battery firing from The GunZone is accurate as far as the evidence it provides, but is a bit overarching in its conclusions. It concludes that:

"But it shows rather graphically that a "box stock" Glock pistol can fire out of battery..."

In reality, more evidence is required to reach this conclusion. In particular, it's critical to determine whether or not the locking surfaces are still engaged at the point that the primer was struck (the strike was so light the round didn't fire). Without knowing whether or not the locking surfaces were in contact with each other, it's not possible to state whether the gun is truly "out of battery". Most guns can dimple a primer off center, the key is whether or not the breech has unlocked when it happens.

KurtC
September 14, 2007, 05:30 PM
This website is a bit tacky, but they have some excellent photos.

http://www.jrguns.com/kaboom/

MTMilitiaman
September 14, 2007, 05:42 PM
Once again, the ability to fire partially out of battery is not specific to Glocks. I know both a 1911 and an HK USP will drop the hammer with the slide slightly to the rear and out of battery.

Furthermore, as is brought up in the article, "lack of case support" is also seen in other models as well--including 1911s. Again, not a Glock specific problem, as evident by the fact that the link also shows handguns with fully supported chambers that have kB'ed.

Federal's recall of early ammunition was an admission of guilt, and they were wise to take responsibility for their actions. Kudos to them. The question remains, however, why Glock was left with the tainted reputation.

And once again, the Glock is safe with modern ammunition in good condition. If it meets SAAMI specs, you're as good to go in a Glock as with any other pistol. This includes +P ammunition when such ammunition actually safely exists by industry standards. The only time the chamber dimensions and relative lack of case support will be a problem is when reloading. Case life suffers and eventually leads to problems--which can be largely eliminated with an aftermarket barrel.

I am amazed at what people will feed their pistols and expect them to function with. Esp in the case of the .40. This cartridge operates at over 35,000 PSI and is typically load near its maximum allowable pressure. Yet that doesn't keep people from trying to make it into something it isn't. SAAMI doesn't even recognize the existence +P .40 ammo, and has no standards for it. If your .40 S&W ammo is labeled +P, it is over the standards that the pistol and the brass were designed to handle, there is no official standards for it, and you are skating on thin ice. It is Bubba back yard reloads, and I don't care whose name is on the box or how reputable they claim to be. It's laughable that they would try to blame failures with such ammunition on the firearm. This goes for those morons that try to reload the .40 into something it isn't themselves as well. If you want 10mm Auto performance, get a 10mm Auto. If you have a 10mm Auto and you want .41 Magnum performance, get a .41 Magnum. Recognize the capabilities of your cartridge, and don't try to turn it into something it isn't, and you'll be safe. That would seem like common sense to me, but apparently, it isn't to everyone else.

SpookBoy
September 14, 2007, 05:58 PM
just some fyi glock is not the only one
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/tapioca-usp40b.jpg


http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/usp45-l.jpg
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/tapioca.html

SpectreBlofeld
September 15, 2007, 05:28 PM
Here's a video of a Glock kaboom in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vceh44UK-8I

MTMilitiaman
September 15, 2007, 06:16 PM
And...

Ocraknife
September 15, 2007, 06:20 PM
I hope I don't have any KBs especially with higher powered 10mm rounds.:(

Alnamvet
September 15, 2007, 06:29 PM
...IS???:confused:

dwatts47
September 16, 2007, 12:05 AM
I know this will start hate posts but lets think about what we're saying.

The maker of the gun says "don't shoot lead bullets or reloaded ammo in this gun its unsafe". Buyer says " I trust my handloads. Gun blows up... people blame the gun.

Now before you start posting that I didn't read everything or I'm new... let me say, I have borderline... no I have abused several of my Glocks with VERY high pressure, and reasonably unsafe handloads. (dont ask)

I have'nt yet had any such kabooms, firing out of battery, or any other of these things.

Any firearm, when fired with unsafe ammo can and most likely will fail. But its a Glock and Its plastic, and it has a good rep.
So naturally, anytime the gun fails in anyway... AntiGlockers are gonna jump all over it.

I'm not saying that the G-lock is indestructable, I'm just saying that the only thing we really know about all these Kabooms is what people want to admit to. I chose to trust my own experiences and the positive experiences of the 8 sum odd million other glock owners that are shooting instead of talking about how they heard a glock blew up one time.

Hemicuda
September 16, 2007, 07:01 AM
Not only are Glocks prone to Ka-boom, but the ergonomics are designed by a PMS'ing chimp with ADD and glaucoma...

I mean... they fit your hand like a crudely carved 2x4, and look like a pile of crudely stamped elephant dung...

hence the nickname "glunk"...

minsonngo
September 16, 2007, 10:37 AM
Not only are Glocks prone to Ka-boom, but the ergonomics are designed by a PMS'ing chimp with ADD and glaucoma...

I mean... they fit your hand like a crudely carved 2x4, and look like a pile of crudely stamped elephant dung...

hence the nickname "glunk"...

That's an ignorant thing to say.

I wonder why the Glock is one of the most popular and successful firearm manfacturers out there today? But... to each their own. More Glocks for me. :D

Silentarmy
September 16, 2007, 02:42 PM
Go to the Link posted by KurtC in post #16 and look closely at the pictures! can you caount the ones that were Casehead support related? I can! I have PERSONALLY had two Kabooms and only one of them was Glock. Sure, it was suprisinly violent but I didn't react like the person in that youtube video and go all drama queen! One of my Brass suppliers has a Kimber barrel on the counter that is plugged and split with a little sign that says "The owner of this Kimber thought he would save some $$ by buying ammo in a little White Box from a popular chain store" A round fired into a squibb! The big glock Kaboom debate is based on USAGE people! Think objectively about it and it will make sense to you that Guns that get used, can fail! Not one of 47 guns in my safe have failed while IN MY SAFE! Shoot your guns as much as you spend time worrying about other shooters Dangerous Glocks and you will eventually have a failure. When it happens, Blame it on what you will but I am really not interested in hearing about it! Do I talk smack about Ford trucks because more rednecks drive them than Chevy? No, I just don't drive them!

kraigster414
September 16, 2007, 05:40 PM
I have never read so much BS in my life. Unfriggin' unbelievable the ignorance demonstrated in some of these posts.

Joe the Redneck
September 16, 2007, 07:15 PM
Back when I was a youngman, I got my first Glock.

Whent shooting with a bunck of cop friends. Couldn't have been more pleased. I;m passing my Glock around (our local PD were still converting to Glocks from wheelguns, I live in a small town, This was like 1989 or 90) So I'm passing it around so everyone got a turn.

Wanting to do a good turn, one of my friends gave me a handful of rounds to offset the ammo they had shot.

Round one, bang.

Round two, bang.

Round three, no bang.

Wait one minute, gun pointed downrange, drop mag, attempt to clear round. Nope.

Now I had a Glock jammed with a live round in it. Thank goodness I had a friend who was a smith that help a young fool out.

It was a reload.

It I don't see it come out of the box, it doesn't go in the mag.

Never had a problem since.

Joe

Hemicuda
September 17, 2007, 08:19 PM
I think YOUR post is ignorant... you can't accept an informed poinion???

mine is an OPINION formed by having handled and shot more than a few Glunks...

they fit my hand like a poorly formed 2x4, and they're butt ugly... and I am not ignorant or uninformed...

minsonngo
September 17, 2007, 08:29 PM
I think YOUR post is ignorant... you can't accept an informed poinion???

mine is an OPINION formed by having handled and shot more than a few Glunks...

they fit my hand like a poorly formed 2x4, and they're butt ugly... and I am not ignorant or uninformed...

My post was ignorant? That's a mature response there buddy.

You opinion is respected... but learn to give facts to back up your claims. Glocks are NOT prone to KBs. Otherwise there would be a post every day or week about a new Glock KBing.

Also refrain from making foolish remarks (Glunks) and using extreme analogies ("ergonomics are designed by a PMS'ing chimp with ADD and glaucoma" or "they fit your hand like a crudely carved 2x4, and look like a pile of crudely stamped elephant dung").

We are all grownups here who can make mature comments. What you DID was basically BASH the Glock. There is absolutely NO need for that.

JohnKSa
September 17, 2007, 09:26 PM
Everybody be nice.

Comments including words like: "elephant dung" and "PMS'ing chimps" are not likely to be taken for rational criticism, but responding harshly doesn't get us anywhere either.

Hard Ball
September 17, 2007, 09:37 PM
I agree. Let's keep the discussion civil.

TTTTglock
December 18, 2007, 07:11 PM
I think that like any other discussion, to get the best information you have to be technical and unbiased. A lot of posts are tainted by our emotional connections to the weapons that we prefer. If we can simply look at the mechanics of everything we will get a lot further along. IMO the casing support issue is a byproduct of looser dimensions, to promote reliability in the Glock weapons. The aftermarket barrels that I own do provide more support, but theoretically would increase the chance for a jam in a dirty weapon.

Alleykat
December 18, 2007, 07:21 PM
find Mr. Speir to be far more objective than many give him credit for.

John, I typically agree with you on most subjects. In the spirit of the season, I'll just politely disagree, regarding Speir. What you quoted is nothing different from what most manufacturers say. I've fired tens of thousands of reloads through my Glocks, as do thousands of other Glock owners. If there were a systemic problem, I'd have discovered it by now, as I'm not a perfect reloader. :)

I'll make a friendly bet with you that Speir never took h.s. physics and has an extremely limited understanding of the mechanics of firearms. ;)

Bullet94
December 19, 2007, 02:04 AM
Didn’t Glock change their barrels in 40S&W to ones with more case support? If so why?

Alleykat
December 19, 2007, 08:43 AM
Didn’t Glock change their barrels in 40S&W to ones with more case support? If so why?
__________________


They did so to help mitigate case failures from an ill-conceived round that they choose to use in their pistols. There's very little latitude for error with the .40s.

JohnKSa
December 20, 2007, 12:09 AM
I've fired tens of thousands of reloads through my Glocks, as do thousands of other Glock owners. If there were a systemic problem, I'd have discovered it by now, as I'm not a perfect reloader.To be fair I didn't say there was a "systemic problem". However, there are no perfect guns and Glocks have some manufacturer-acknowledged design limitations. Those who choose to ignore them do so at their own risk.

Your comment about "tens of thousands of reloads" reminds me of a comment by a forensic engineer who blew up one of his Glocks after shooting something like 20,000 reloads through it. He acquired some pressure measuring equipment and did some testing. Found that he had caused the blow-up himself in spite of the fact that he had gotten away with it for "tens of thousands" of rounds before it finally bit him. I am NOT saying you're headed for the same fate, just pointing out that getting away with something for a long time doesn't necessarily prove anything. What do you think the engineer in question would have said if you had asked him about Glocks & reloads after he'd shot around 18,000 rounds through his gun? Exactly what you just did...I'll just politely disagree, regarding Speir.I have spent a good deal of time learning about Glocks and the issues surrounding them. I own several of them and find them to be fine weapons--Mr. Speir also owns at least one Glock, to which he entrusts his life as a carry weapon on occasion. I'm not putting myself in the same category as Mr. Speir, but I would say that we have at least one thing in common--we both admit that ignoring Glock's recommendations about the use of their products carries with it a real risk. The fact that Glock's warning are "nothing different from what most manufacturers say" doesn't mean they can be ignored with impunity.

I stand by my comments about Speir's objectivity. I'm not saying he's totally impartial, that's not a common human quality, but I find him to be more objective than many apparently do.

BTW, Mr. Speir is a TFL member so comments about him should not take the form of personal attacks.

in625shooter
December 20, 2007, 01:08 AM
Glocks do not fire out of battery PERIOD!! If they did there would be 3 times as many KB's as there are. The biggest issue with Glocks KB are reloaded ammo. A lot of people try to get way to many reloads out of the case which expands at the base and thus the brass becomes too weak. Or they do not reload properly and create a new magnum!

Edward429451
December 20, 2007, 03:34 AM
I don't have anything against Glocks. I've owned one since 1992 and put thousands of the dreaded reloads through it and not only that but the even moreso dreaded lead reloads:eek: So where's the KB?

Even so, the KB stories abound. Always the inexperianced reloaders eh? So where is the stories of all the other brands of pistols KB'ing? Any gun can go KB with improperly loaded cartridges and occassionally they do. Not in the numbers of the Glock though, whats with that? So maybe there is something to the feelings of the Glock detractors. If a gun is soo sensitive to ammo or reloads then it's not user friendly compared to all the other brands on the market. Where's all the XD KB's? Maybe only experianced reloaders buy those? I don't buy that. Looking at it like that, one could easily come to the conclusion that there is a lot of more user friendly pistols out there than the Glock for the same money.

I think that a lot of Glock bashing is done for the wrong reasons. I also think that Pride driven championing of the pistol is just as misplaced, but in the end...either your pistol has a black cloud following it around or it doesn't. Glock does and thats that. Perfection my butt.

blackhawk45
December 20, 2007, 10:31 AM
Glocks fireing out of Battery? Try as I might,I can't get my unloaded 23 to go click,out of Battery? wus up?

gandog56
December 20, 2007, 11:09 AM
The Glock Mantra:
Glocks are good.
Glocks are great.
Jus' don't shoot reloads
like the manuals state.

Why should I buy a gun that is so unsafe with reloads?

Think I'll stick with my Sig.

ColtM1911A1
December 20, 2007, 02:30 PM
In some circumstances the Glock can fire when it's out of battery. This is more likely to cause a case blowout than the loose chamber.
__________________
Ron
NRA Life Member


That's what happened to my G21 when it decided to commit suicide (FYI, it did this on Cor-Bon 185gr +P JHP)...

Boris Bush
December 20, 2007, 02:35 PM
I have never seen a Glock fire out of battery. I was shootin with a buddy one day and his glock looked closed and locked but would not fire. Ya see a small shaving of brass stuck to the heavey lube in the front part of the bbl that locks onto the slide on top. that little shaving stopped the gun dead in its tracks. Just an observation. FWIW it happened a little more than 10 years ago so maybe they changed something since then

ColtM1911A1
December 20, 2007, 02:52 PM
I have never seen a Glock fire out of battery. I was shootin with a buddy one day and his glock looked closed and locked but would not fire. Ya see a small shaving of brass stuck to the heavy lube in the front part of the bbl that locks onto the slide on top. that little shaving stopped the gun dead in its tracks. Just an observation. FWIW it happened a little more than 10 years ago so maybe they changed something since then...


To tell you the truth, Boris Bush, I don't know what it did, except I know it was destroyed. Scott at Glock told me after examining the pistol that he thought it fired out of battery. To me, it just stung like hellfire...

Boris Bush
December 20, 2007, 02:56 PM
He thought, key words.

Doc44
December 20, 2007, 04:09 PM
Well it can be fun reading these threads. This is one of my favorite as it's one of the subjects that makes semi-normal gun owners go nuts. I have fired a bunch of Glocks, I don't own one.That being said I have set through several autopsy on busted Glocks. The unsupported case head, it's in good company, 1911 comes to mind. The firing out of battery can be caused if you have a problem with the trigger system (dirty, improved?) Poly chamber/rifling look at the several military rifles that have used and still use that style of chamber/rifling. All 5 pistols died do to poorly made and overloaded reloads. The shop we were in checked everything from primer pockets, powder residue to primers from the magazine that had bulging primers. One guy did reload but to prove it was the pistol he brought in all of his powder, primers and bullets. While playing with the bullets I found 3 in a box of 155grn that weighed 180grns, might cause a problem if you ran a hot load? Anyway Gocks are safe reliable firearms as long as you do your part. Just for fun does anyone really believe in todays lawsuit crazy society that anything like this would not cause Headlines in every major newspaper? "Windage & Elevation", Doc.

bushidomosquito
December 20, 2007, 04:52 PM
Why would Glock leave that chamber unsupported all these years? Wouldn't take much to back those mills off .03" or so and give the whiners one less thing to bitch about. Could it be that they have a few guys working for them that actually know a thing or two about this stuff instead of perusing the internet for design ideas? Think they may have tested that chamber (test a Glock? What a concept!) with good ammo and found it works just fine while adding to the reliability they are so well known for? This is not the Chevy Corvair of handguns. If you do as the manual says you won't have any problems unless you get one of those rare overloaded factory rounds which do happen and have a pretty good chance of getting fed to a Glock because of sheer numbers. If only someone made an aftermarket barrel:rolleyes: with more case support, you could shoot those reloads without fear, until all the haters get online and starts talking about how the polymer compound causes skin cancer. It's not like they'd have to prove the claim or anything.

...now if you'll excuse me, I just spilled Kool-Aid on my keyboard.

ColtM1911A1
December 21, 2007, 02:38 PM
Doc44, I didn't sue Glock (what for -- they sent me a new G21 which I then traded for a H&K USPc.) It drew a little blood, stung, and numbed my trigger finger for a few hours -- that's all)...

So, my name wouldn't have made the newspapers, if that's your point, and therefore wasn't known to anyone but me, Glock, Cor-Bon, and those fellow that witnessed it at the range...

The G21 was firing Cor-Bon 185gr +P JHP. I sent half the remaining rounds to Glock and the other half to Cor-Bon for them to check. After bantering back & forth for a couple weeks, Glock's technician (Scott) sent me a nice letter and a new pistol (they kept the destroyed one). FWIW, both Glock and cor-Bon found the factory rounds were within SAAMI pressures. And it was Glock who said it appeared that the weapon had fired BEFORE the chamber had locked-up completely. WHY, well we'll never know for sure, but it happened somehow.

IMO, Glock was a stand-up company, handling the problem in a first class way; addressed all questions, kept in contact, apologized, proclaimed Cor-Bon was not at fault nor was I, and replaced the defective firearm. They offered to pay for any doctor expenses and didn't discourage any litigation if I had decided to take that route, which I didn't as no real damage was done to me physically that a bandaid and some anti-flinch cream couldn't solve...

AFshooter
December 21, 2007, 03:45 PM
A Glock being unsafe to shoot with reloads (according to Glock that is) is just another reason to not buy a Glock.

IdahoG36
December 22, 2007, 11:01 PM
The GLOCK owners manual states to use only factory ammunition, no reloads or lead bullets. They don't just put that in there to take up space in the manual. It is there for a reason. I am just amazed as to how many people have posted here saying how many reloads they have fired out of their GLOCKs, how they use lead bullets, etc. When your GLOCK blows up, you only have yourself to blame for that.
A simple analogy- Everybody knows you aren't supposed to drink and drive, but some people ignore the warnings and chose to do so. You may get away with it for years, and one day you run into a tree or another car. Then you call your car a piece of junk.
That is what I see in a lot of these posts.

IM_Lugger
December 23, 2007, 12:57 AM
Of course any gun can blow up if you use too much powder or have a bullet lodged in the barrel... But the fact is we still hear more often about KB's in Glock then Sigs, HK's, Barettas, or 1911's... and they are also pretty common guns! So I don't buy that we only hear about it because Glock is such a common gun...

When was the last time someone had a KB with a 92FS? Even though the gun has less than perfect chamber support! Perhaps firing out of battery is the real problem or maybe the good ol' 9mm is simply less prone such problems...

woodspirits
December 23, 2007, 02:53 AM
Everybody be nice.

Comments including words like: "elephant dung" and "PMS'ing chimps" are not likely to be taken for rational criticism, but responding harshly doesn't get us anywhere either.

Gee, JohnKSa, aren't you proud of me for staying out of this one? In spite of calling my one and only beloved Glock a "glunk" I kept my cool. I was able to blow it off as a serious character flaw and consider the source....wait a minute....did I really let it slide right on by?? :D

Stay safe and Merry Christmas

Dean Speir
January 10, 2008, 03:53 AM
.

.

.

Uh oh, I hear my name being bandied about here… and on something I thought was long ago settled.

Almost all Glock KBs have been with .40s. You'll rarely hear of one in .45ACP or 9mm. The sole portion of those assertions with which I would concur is that kB!s in 9 X 19mm are rare… I've only documented two of them, and then only in the past five years… and I've been at this since 1990 shortly after Glock introduced its Models 22 and 23 in .40 S&W.

Even with a year's head start (before the Models 21 in .45 ACP hit the market) and the quirkiness of the .40 S&W cartridge, I've documented almost as many kB!s in the larger chambering… and I stopped actively pursuing any such events 12 years ago.

This just simply isn't true… …and none of them have been able to make the Glock fire out of battery. You are making a categorical assertion which you cannot substantiate. It's silly, it's hyperbolic and it's not even close to supportable.
HAHAhaha...surely you jest? TeHeTeHe. Weak frame. That's a good one. Do you have any toes left on your strong side?

You really need to get out in the world some more… or at least stop relying on the manufacturer's sales literature for your information.
If your .40 S&W ammo is labeled +P, it is over the standards that the pistol and the brass were designed to handle, there is no official standards for it, and you are skating on thin ice. We're reasonably close to accord here… except that you seem to think that just because some manufacturer's .40 S&W ammo might be labeled +P that it exceeds SAAMI's allowable .40 S&W pressures… no member of SAAMI would do that, or they wouldn't be members for very long. Think about it.

I'm just saying that the only thing we really know about all these Kabooms is what people want to admit to. So then you discount the myriad of failure analysis reports from the likes of H.P. White, U.S. Treasury Firearms Labs, H.S. Precision, etc., not to mention well over one hundred independent professional firearms examiners?

I appreciate the calm voice of reason you are attempting in inject, but that assertion needs to be challenged.

Glocks are NOT prone to KBs. Okay, would you accept "Glocks of larger than 9 X 19mm are more susceptible to kB!s than most other handguns?" 'Cause that's something about which I have a substantial amount of verifiable data.

I'll make a friendly bet with you that Speir never took h.s. physics and has an extremely limited understanding of the mechanics of firearms. Can I get in on that action?

Glocks do not fire out of battery PERIOD!! Gosh, that's a strong statement! And even for a relative "noob," a pretty rash one.

You have much left to discover in life, sir.

The GLOCK owners manual states to use only factory ammunition, no reloads or lead bullets. Please advise the date code of the manual where you read such a statement about "no lead."

It must be of v-e-r-y recent publication… and a first for Glock! (Full explanation (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/manual.html).)

Perldog007
January 10, 2008, 08:37 AM
I was warned about KB's when I bought my 23. The person warning me also carried one, a rare specimen of a gun store clerk with impressive knowledge and experience of things that go bang (or Kaboom)

What I was told was that some of them seem to blow up, nobody really knew why but there was intensive study and many theories. The probability seemed small, The used 2nd generation model I got had some 3rd gen parts, looked like a good armorer had been involved so I took a chance.

I was advised that reloading probably increased the chances of case head seperation and KB.

Great gun. Not a great fit, not pretty, just did what it was made to do.


Don't have any GLocks atm, but we want to change that.

The nice thing about guns is that there are so many to choose from. If Glock does not suit you there are still options.

Alleykat
January 10, 2008, 09:24 AM
I've documented almost as many kB!s in the larger chambering… and I stopped actively pursuing any such events 12 years ago.


You'll never document a G21 KB that wasn't caused by faulty ammo...but then, you either know that, or you are truly just that ignorant about how firearms work!:cool:

And pleeease, don't use the Portland PD debacle as an example!

dgludwig
January 10, 2008, 02:18 PM
Are there after-market barrels available for the Glock that eliminate or reduce the reported/claimed lack of chamber support? And if there are, is there any reason why Glock doesn't make a similar barrel for their pistols?

Canthros
January 10, 2008, 03:25 PM
Bar-Sto claims that their replacement Glock barrels have fully supported chambers. I'd bet on there being other manufacturer's with similar claims.

Dean Speir
January 10, 2008, 03:59 PM
.

.

.

You'll never document a G21 KB that wasn't caused by faulty ammo...but then, you either know that, or you are truly just that ignorant about how firearms work!

And pleeease, don't use the Portland PD debacle as an example! You're determined to be provocative and confrontational, aren't you?

If you know anything about the "Portland PD debacle," then you would know that it is not to be cited as evidence of anything other than it was: a disingenuous police agency (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html), some of whose members have had a long-standing hard-on for Glock.

For you to even mention PBB, suggests that you not only know nothing about any of this… including the basis for the many "Glock Upgrades" (starting with the 1992 Six-Part Upgrade and continuing today)… but that you are totally unashamed of trotting out that lack of knowledge for all here to see.

For my part, I have done the work, have published the peer-reviewed conclusions, and continually updated the information as necessary.

You? You simply make unsupportable assertions.

.

.

GaryGGR
January 10, 2008, 11:19 PM
After your Glock goes Kaboom and you contact Glock what do they say? How many of people have contacted them?

Lets get a count of the number Glocks that have been returned after Kaboom.

DENALI
January 11, 2008, 12:12 AM
I'll post to the issue of Glock frame strength. Polymer flexes steel bends. A good example of this strength would be for instance the G-20. Many experienced shooters believe you wouldn't even have a factory 10mm loading of any kind if it wasn't for the Glock! I have seen one 1911 after another fail in this regard, no matter who manufacture'd it. I've personally run through 2colt Delta's and watched my dear brother deconstruct an S&W 1006. I have a G-20 which has eaten in the vicinity of 13,000 rounds of various factory fare and genuinely appears none the worse for the exposure. Now anti-Glock wankers stay your wrath as I'm not claiming superiority over any particular beloved pistol platform, I'm merely pointing out one of the great advantages of polymer, flex. The frame on the Glock (any Glock) flexes and this feature translates to strength. Therefore of all the criticisms one can hurl at the Glock design, and there are a few, to my mind frame strength isn't one of them..............:D

IdahoG36
January 11, 2008, 01:38 AM
Please advise the date code of the manual where you read such a statement about "no lead."

It must be of v-e-r-y recent publication… and a first for Glock!

Alright Dean Spier, I reviewed the GLOCK manuals for both my GLOCK 23 and brand new GLOCK 21SF. You are correct. I could not find any warnings about the use of lead bullets. I stand corrected.
Now, for the sake of discussion, let's just say that my new GLOCK 21SF was my first handgun purchase. I read the owner's manual thoroughly, and buy some factory fresh .45acp rounds that happen to be loaded with lead bullets. I plan to do quite a bit of shooting that day, and bring along 500 rounds. I know nothing of polygonal rifling or excessive pressure due to lead buildup. All of a sudden, seemingly out of nowhere kB!!!! GLOCK parts scatter and my shooting hand is injured. Polymer shards imbedded everywhere.
I followed my instruction manual, used quality, commercially manufactured ammunition, and my GLOCK exploded. How liable is GLOCK for the ensuing damages? There is no warning against lead bullets in the instruction manual that accompanied my recent production (April 2007) GLOCK 21SF.

Glockeroo
January 11, 2008, 02:06 AM
Oh boy! An indirect Glock Bashing thread. Will it ever end.

44 Deerslayer
January 11, 2008, 11:09 AM
My G30 has less case support than my Colt Combat Commander and my XD45 looks fully supported to my eye even with a magnifying glass. Fired brass from all 3 looks the same (except for the firing pin mark on the Glock) with no bulges at all. I can chamber all the fired empties in any of the 3 with no problem.

So what does this prove? I have no idea except maybe the .45 is such a low pressure round it doesn't matter.

Dean Speir
January 11, 2008, 04:51 PM
.

.

.

I could not find any warnings about the use of lead bullets. I stand corrected. Thank you for stepping up. One of my core tenants is "Always challenge your own perceptions."
Now, for the sake of discussion, let's just say that… How 'bout we say that your postulation is the subject of either another thread or a 'phone call to Smyrna.

Such speculation in an on-line Forum is pointless.
Oh boy! An indirect Glock Bashing thread. Will it ever end. And this is dispositive of what besides how deeply intertwined all things Glock are with your emotional life?

It would seem that you consider any discussion involving Glock(s) where voluminous praise is not heaped on the pistol, to be some degree of "Glock bashing."

Bullet94
January 11, 2008, 09:56 PM
Dean Speir
I thought I read that Glock changed their barrels in 40 S&W to ones with more case support. Is this correct? If so, how has this change effected KB’s in 40 caliber Glocks?

Hard Ball
January 12, 2008, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by in625shooter
Glocks do not fire out of battery PERIOD!!

Perhaps you are trying to say you have never been present when they did. This dies not mean that they di not. Your statement is simply foolish.

w_houle
January 12, 2008, 12:41 PM
I like to shoot, but just because I know how to shoot (...at least I know how to pull the trigger) and do basic maintenance does not qualify me as a gunsmith. I am not familiar with a Glock in any way and don't have any experience with it. If I am reading this correctly there is only a few issues;
1) Case head support. If I had read all of this correctly, there is a problem with the chambers being too big and the brass stretching too much. If this is true and Glocks have a sloppy chamber then wouldn't there be an accuracy problem? I thought with a sloppy chamber that it would be hard to have two bullets sit in the chamber the same way, and in a bad case of it might cause the bullets to keyhole the target? If it didn't do as above then wouldn't it be just as easy to get an aftermarket barrel that provides better case head support or is there something about that issue I don't understand?
2) Firing out of battery,(will get to this later)
3) Material used to make it. I would think if this was true then problems would arise in all of their guns eventually. I would think it would happen quicker in the heavier cartridges, but would still happen even in the 9x19 How many people reading this can claim over 250,000 rounds through a pistol? I personally cannot, but how many Glocks out there that can? I would take a guess and say that there are more than a few, and since I have never seen a thread that states that a Glock is only good for "X" number of rounds I would think this is a non-issue.

IdahoG36
January 12, 2008, 11:01 PM
How many people reading this can claim over 250,000 rounds through a pistol? I personally cannot

I cannnot say that about my two GLOCKs, but I have read some articles about range rental GLOCKs with extremely high round counts and still going strong. I wil try to find some links to post.

IdahoG36
January 12, 2008, 11:45 PM
"Every year, 100 percent of our range-rental Glocks survive to the end of the season with none requiring shipment to the factory for repairs. We might have to replace an occasional spring, but that's it. I can't say that for any other brand we rent."

To reinforce the Glock's durability, Jim makes a point of wearing an old rental gun, a Glock 21 that has fired 80,000 rounds of .45 ACP ammo. Is it still a solid firearm? When a customer cocks a skeptical eyebrow, McLoud beckons him to the range where he fires three fast shots from the G21 and reels the target back. All three bullet holes are touching. The customer is convinced.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_5_49/ai_n6054267

For almost 10 years I’ve been abusing and neglecting my Glock 21. Its been a running joke among some friends and I. Nothing was planned or documented. As I tell people what it has been through, most simply don’t believe me. I guess I wouldn’t either. If someone told you their Glock has at least 150K rounds through it and has gone almost 15K rounds with no cleaning or maintenance would you believe them?
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

I'll keep looking.

DENALI
January 13, 2008, 12:37 AM
I've seen that from time to time, Glock pistols showing improving accuracy as they put on more mileage, substantial mileage.....I can only imagine it has something to do with the hardness of the barrel's.....::cool:

JohnKSa
January 13, 2008, 01:35 AM
PTOOMA's Glock torture tests indicated that the gun was more accurate after some "experience" than it was directly out of the box. I wouldn't call their accuracy testing particularly conclusive, but it's interesting.

I've also seen other extensive usage tests on various semi-auto pistols which test accuracy periodically. Typically the accuracy improves for the first few thousand rounds and then begins to drop off a bit. I feel like the gun "wears in" a bit at first which improves accuracy. Then after more shooting, parts begin to loosen up which makes the accuracy start to decrease somewhat. The less wear (the harder the parts/the better the lubrication/the better the design) the slower that final decrease in accuracy will be.

HighValleyRanch
January 13, 2008, 02:01 AM
PTOOMA's Glock torture tests indicated that the gun was more accurate after some "experience" than it was directly out of the box. I wouldn't call their accuracy testing particularly conclusive, but it's interesting.
Could also be that although after 150000 rds, the gun wears more, but the shooter gets more familiar with that firearm and the accuracy increases!:D

DENALI
January 13, 2008, 02:53 AM
Actually I agree with that idea also...there's no substitute for familiarity with the hardware, and some folks do seem to require some getting used to the Glock grip angle......none the less, tenifer seems to stretch barrel break in across many thousands of rounds when compared to other proprietary barrel and steel treatments................:eek:

JohnKSa
January 13, 2008, 02:54 AM
...the shooter gets more familiar with that firearm and the accuracy increases!I tend to agree that this is a factor and that's why I caveated the results of the PTOOMA test. However, some of the other tests used more careful accuracy testing methods (benchrest/Ransom Rest) so I believe that there is something to the idea that the accuracy of a semi-auto actually improves somewhat from NIB after it's been shot some.