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mmasteve
September 12, 2007, 10:23 PM
u see all the talk no how tuff the SIG 226, GLOCKS and SPRINGFIELD XD are with all the touture test they go threw. i saw a touture test of the Beretta 92FS in which it did terrible. my question is wonder why the Armed FOrces dont choose a different sidearm to issuse. the 92fs would fire but 1 round then jam after being dropped in a pound for 5 sec or so . not something i would trust my life with .

ARmasterzach
September 12, 2007, 10:34 PM
I want to see them run over a Hk usp with a tank since they are supposed to be able to withstand the weight.

Officer's Match
September 12, 2007, 11:24 PM
Pretty hard to argue with all the ridiculous things that have been done to Glocks.

IM_Lugger
September 13, 2007, 12:28 AM
i saw a touture test of the Beretta 92FS in which it did terrible. my question is wonder why the Armed FOrces dont choose a different sidearm to issuse. the 92fs would fire but 1 round then jam after being dropped in a pound for 5 sec or so . not something i would trust my life with.
You're not talking about the video one of the members here posted on UTube are you? :rolleyes:

Beretta is VERY reliable design (mine has never jamed in thousands of rounds fired).

STAGE 2
September 13, 2007, 12:57 AM
I don't suppose anyone will ever really know. That said, having the same guns be in service for 50, 60 or even 70 years, being rebuilt with mismatched parts and still running like tops seems awfully tough to me.

LUPUS
September 13, 2007, 02:08 AM
You got the point Stage2, and I really do not understand the people ignoring the torture tests that the 1911s, BHPs, CZs, Makarovs even many kinds of service revolvers went through the harshest regions of the world in the hands of the harshest people for almost a century.
Regards.

Axion
September 13, 2007, 03:00 AM
You got the point Stage2, and I really do not understand the people ignoring the torture tests that the 1911s, BHPs, CZs, Makarovs even many kinds of service revolvers went through the harshest regions of the world in the hands of the harshest people for almost a century.
Regards.

A) Most soldiers probably rarely use their handguns in combat, that's what the rifle is for.

B) How do we know their 1911's and such didn't jam? Do we have records?

SpectreBlofeld
September 13, 2007, 03:06 AM
The CZ-75 P-01 went through some crazy endurance tests for its NATO approval, too.

LUPUS
September 13, 2007, 03:59 AM
In our country, Turkey, the 1911s had been in our infantry's inventory since the Korean War. When our troops were deployed to Korea, US transfered a huge amount M1 Garands and 1911s to our troops to upgrade our WWI and WWII era small arms inventory.
I just know the WWII era 1911s, which were also seen the Korean soil were issued to our officers for many years, no finish on them, almost with the least maintainance that even the springs were not changed,had been utterly reliable, rock solid durable. I must admit that only Remington 230 gr UMC have been used in them, but that's way with the armed forces in almost every where. Now 1911s are staying in the safe, but sometimes they are taken out to shoot just for pleasure without any maintainance, and without any hitch again.
After the US military went through the 92 series pistols, our armed forces followed the route and adopted the same pistol. Then our arsenals introduced with cracked locking blocks, slides and barrels due to the extensive use of submachine gun ammo. There have been many BHPs which were also famous for their limited amount of heat treatment and hardness before the presentation of MKIIIs in our inventory, all of them are in the same condition with the 1911s, but just working without any hitch with the same stuff. So, recently our armed forces adopted an other pistol from a domestic manufacturer, which is a CZ clone.
I do not claim that the newer models are unnecessary. If the older designs have met all the needs of military,LE and civilians, there would not be any necessity for newer designs. But the newer designs also have their pros and cons as the older ones.
As many old fashioned ones, I am against trying to ignore, bash other designs which have been proven themselves in many different hands and territories and claiming they are obsolete . Despite seeing many issues with them, I still admit that a properly maintained and checked 92 will also perform its intended task, but of course it will not be my first choice when I am long away from urban territory.
Again any handgun has its own pros and cons, which differs according to the needs of each individual shooter, be it a LEO,military personel or civilian.
Regards.

Silvanus
September 13, 2007, 04:40 AM
You got a point LUPUS. Who of us need a gun that can be overrun with a tank or dropped in a pond? It's nice to know your gun can do it, but we honestly don't even need a pistol that can shoot 1000 rounds without cleaning. Most of us clean our weapons regularly (I even clean my Glock after every range visit), so that's not an issue.

NCHornet
September 13, 2007, 05:22 AM
Don't let the goverment fool you into thinking "They want nothing but the best for our men and ladies in uniform", a lot of it has to do with $$$$ just as much performance. Not saing the 92 isn't a awesome firearm because it is. I will never get rid of my Italian made 92F, but there are many firearms that could easily fulfill the role of military sidearm just fine. I stopped questioning why our goverment does anything, I am still stuck on figuring out my wife!!:D

STAGE 2
September 13, 2007, 05:56 AM
A) Most soldiers probably rarely use their handguns in combat, that's what the rifle is for.

Most police don't shoot their handguns for even practice. Most gun owners will never use their handgun in a shooting. Whats your point.


B) How do we know their 1911's and such didn't jam? Do we have records?

I don't know if records were kept, but I do know that armors would not put unuseable pistols back into service. In the days where we are having problems with locking blocks on pistols that havent even been in service for a decade, it says something that many 1911's did duty for over half a century. I highly doubt that all of the wunderguns of today would be able to duplicate this feat.

Alleykat
September 13, 2007, 06:39 AM
Quote:
A) Most soldiers probably rarely use their handguns in combat, that's what the rifle is for.

Most police don't shoot their handguns for even practice. Most gun owners will never use their handgun in a shooting. Whats your point.



Quote:
B) How do we know their 1911's and such didn't jam? Do we have records?

I don't know if records were kept, but I do know that armors would not put unuseable pistols back into service. In the days where we are having problems with locking blocks on pistols that havent even been in service for a decade, it says something that many 1911's did duty for over half a century. I highly doubt that all of the wunderguns of today would be able to duplicate this feat.
__________________


Really bad logical reasoning skills and a splendid example of bad analogies. :D

longeyes
September 13, 2007, 10:57 AM
I know what I have in my BOB. It starts with G and ends with k.

STAGE 2
September 13, 2007, 12:27 PM
Really bad logical reasoning skills and a splendid example of bad analogies.


And yet nonetheless true.

newerguy
September 13, 2007, 01:14 PM
Really bad logical reasoning skills and a splendid example of bad analogies.

And yet nonetheless true.

The military primarily gives handguns to people who either have something better to do than shooting, or who have something way cooler to shoot with. If a soldier needs to shoot his rifle, it very well may be business as usual. If he needs to shoot his pistol, he's probably in trouble.

IdahoG36
September 13, 2007, 01:53 PM
Really bad logical reasoning skills and a splendid example of bad analogies.
I was thinking the same.:D A Beretta is every bit as reliable as a GLOCK, SIG, HK, etc. The torture tests you see performed on these pistols are the extreme, and most Berettas in use with the armed forces will never see this kind of abuse. Firearms are just like any other machine, if you abuse them, they will have problems. When properly maintained, they will function just fine.

STAGE 2
September 13, 2007, 02:29 PM
was thinking the same. A Beretta is every bit as reliable as a GLOCK, SIG, HK, etc. The torture tests you see performed on these pistols are the extreme, and most Berettas in use with the armed forces will never see this kind of abuse. Firearms are just like any other machine, if you abuse them, they will have problems. When properly maintained, they will function just fine.

Then the military armorers disagree with you. In fact there is one who is a member here who will attest that the 92fs is a very fragile weapon by military standards.

As far as reliability goes, there are many many reports of beretta stoppages, some mag related, others because of the fine sand getting into everything (maybe an open slide isn't always a good idea).

You can dismiss what I say as much as you like, but the bottom line is that none of the other pistols that have been mentioned here have yet to duplicate what the 1911 has. We aren't talking about generally serving close to a century, we are talking about the SAME pistols serving upwards of that amount.

Thats a tough pistol.

IdahoG36
September 13, 2007, 03:47 PM
Take a 1911, put a sub standard military contract mag in it, and it will have issues also. Cover a 1911 in fine grit and see how it holds up. Again, any handgun will have problems when placed in extreme conditions. If properly maintained, it will function fine. Regardless of your opinion, the fact is that the Beretta is a very reliable gun.

torpeau
September 13, 2007, 03:59 PM
My MAB PA-15 has been wonderfully reliable. My Maks are looking to be exceptional, too. My HSc .380 jams with most brands of .380.

MyXD40
September 13, 2007, 04:02 PM
I dont care what gun I'm given. As long as it shoots thats all I care about. if dropped in sand, it better work. If in water, it better work. If in space, it still better work

Alnamvet
September 13, 2007, 04:18 PM
Glock!

IanS
September 13, 2007, 04:37 PM
my question is wonder why the Armed FOrces dont choose a different sidearm to issuse. the 92fs would fire but 1 round then jam after being dropped in a pound for 5 sec or so . not something i would trust my life with .

1. The U.S. Military is slow to change. They're not like individual civilians who buy and sell the latest toys at a whim based on what they saw in a torture test or read on the internet.

2. The Beretta M9 on the whole is "good enough". Many complain and many praise it. About the same can be said about virtually every piece of equipment they get issued.

3. Even if the M9 is lacking as some claim there are other equipment issues besides handguns. Since this is a handgun centric forum our focus is just on handguns. But a handgun is just one of many pieces of equipment that the military could address and has to get in line in terms of priority and budget constraints.

Manedwolf
September 13, 2007, 04:39 PM
The biggest issue with the M9 has been the Checkmate magazines. They had a phosphate "sand-resistant" finish that was tested with gritty US desert sort of sand, not the talcum-powder Iraqi sand. That sand got into the phosphate finish and caused jams.

Lowest-bidder magazines have ruined so many good milspec guns...

quickcanary
September 13, 2007, 05:01 PM
The torture tests you see performed on these pistols are the extreme, and most Berettas in use with the armed forces will never see this kind of abuse.

It's not probable that a Beretta would need to be fired after being thrown from an airplane, but you don't think it's feasible that a soldier or LEO could drop his Beretta in mud? That's what Sturm did, and the Beretta failed soon afterwards while the Glock spent every round in the mag (after being dunked twice, no less).

I'm not saying it was a scientific experiment, but I've seen enough proof that other weapons can take absurd abuse and keep on ticking. I know which one I'd rather take into combat.

Again, any handgun will have problems when placed in extreme conditions. If properly maintained, it will function fine.

That may be, but some people don't have the luxury of keeping their weapons maintained and need a pistol that they can count on when the SHTF. As far as any handgun having problems when placed in extreme conditions, that might be true also, but some can definitely stand up to those conditions better than others. Glocks and HKs have been frozen, baked, thrown into bogs, saltwater, you name it and they still shoot. The Beretta is a fine firearm but I just don't think it can take the same amount of abuse, regardless of your opinion. :)

STAGE 2
September 13, 2007, 06:51 PM
Cover a 1911 in fine grit and see how it holds up

And like I said, because of the open slide, it stands to reason that its alot easier to get gunk, sand, fine grit, whatever, into the action of a beretta than a pistol with a closed slide, making it more subject to this type of failure.

This is especially so in places that have sandstorms. You don't need to drop your pistol to get it dirty.

JohnKSa
September 13, 2007, 09:12 PM
I think that the Ruger P-Series handguns are about as tough as it gets.

I've questioned rental range owners and the answer's always the same. The Rugers never seem to break.

LUPUS
September 14, 2007, 02:34 AM
+1 for Ruger P series thoughness.
Aside of small amount of issues derived from seperate lemons they are absolute tack drivers. At least the ones I have seen. I have seen many P85 and 89 pistols shooting 1-2k rounds a day and for 4-5 consequent days without any kind of reliability and mechanical issue, and without any maintainance.
CZ 75 is another tack driver when it comes to thoughness. The only parts I have seen got broken on them are the slide stops, trigger springs and firing pin retaining roll pins which I broke my own gun's after really huge amount of dry firing without a snap cap or dummy round.
I have also seen many BHPs seeing the same amount of abuse without any major mechanical issue. The only parts I have seen broken on them were firing pin retaining plates, recoil spring guides' small circle where the slide stop goes through and a very seperate one was the firing pin spring which was also achieved by myself during dry firing.This is also the part I achived to brake in my HKP2K:o. The only major slide fracture issue I have seen with BHPs was with a T series one, where the part under the ejection port was fractured.
An average police officer or army officer do not abuse their guns so much, but all the pistols I mentioned above and some amount of BHPs went through incredible amount of abuse during special courses and approved as real tack drivers in the thoughness chart, IMHO of course.
Best.

novaDAK
September 14, 2007, 11:58 PM
I think the Ruger P-series are about the toughest out there (though there are a lot that are tough too).

I love polymer framed guns, especially for their lighter weight. But for something tough, I want it to be able to withstand open flame without melting :D

(I own one poly framed gun, two steel, and 4 alum., plan on getting more of each in the future :) )

MyXD40
September 15, 2007, 12:54 AM
I'm glad a lot of people here like the ruger P-series pistol.

Theres a nice one, unknown what exactly it is other than being a 9mm and "silver" in color. Price is $349.99 at Gander Mountain..I'll probably be picking up one when my buddy picks his up on the 20th..

The Body Bagger
September 15, 2007, 12:56 AM
There is nothing wrong with the M9 that wasn't attributed to poor magazines made by a 2nd rate manufacturer. Take care of your firearms and they will take care of you.

Cremon
September 15, 2007, 08:21 PM
If your toughness contest includes exposure to extreme heat, Glocks will eliminated from the contest, as will S&W M&Ps, some Sig Sauers, and HKs.

JohnKSa
September 15, 2007, 09:06 PM
If your toughness contest includes exposure to extreme heat...Depends on what you mean by extreme heat.

I don't have information for all the polymer pistols out there, but Glocks are safe to actually use (with gloves) as long as the frame temperature is under 260 degrees Fahrenheit and will not be damaged by heat until the temperature exceeds 400 degree F.

They don't have the same temperature tolerance as steel, but from any practical perspective it's really not an issue.

novaDAK
September 16, 2007, 01:42 AM
What if I'm outside working on my hot engine (don't know why I'd be doing that though if it's hot :D ) and my polymer framed pistol slips out (don't know how) of my shoulder holster and it wedges between the fenderwell and the red-hot exhaust header because I just got done doing a dyno-test run after installing a turbocharger. then it slips down further near the header collector which I'm running open and the flames coming out of the header melts the frame? :eek::D:p

(NOT a true story...just a possible and highly unlikely situation where it may be exposed to very high temperatures unexpectedly ;) )

Cremon
September 16, 2007, 10:03 AM
Depends on what you mean by extreme heat.

A wholly impractical but possible scenario appeared on CSI. It was a rerun, but I saw it yesterday - had an Air Marshal in a car with a small pipe bomb that went off. The gun (in this case, a polymer framed Sig Sauer) was completely melted except for the slide when the team found it.

Also, a few years ago, in an effort to stamp out Saturday Night Special handguns (like Jennings, etc which have zinc alloys in them) in a couple of states, legislators attempted to enact laws stating that a gun needed to be able to withstand temperatures in excess of 800 degrees F (thereby making Jennings Nines and the like invalid) to be legal to sell. The problem was that many of their police departments used Glocks, which would have also been invalidated by that law. Needless to say, said piece of legislation was quickly rescinded.

Situations where a gun would be exposed to temperatures like that are extremely rare - but if they do occur, many will exceed 400 degrees because paper's flash point is 451 degrees. That's your most common source of extreme heat - wood, paper or other cellulose fueled fires. If guns are loaded, long term exposure to heat like that will blow them apart anyway when the cartridges in their magazines discharge, whether they are polymer or steel framed. But unloaded, the polymer pistols have a bigger disadvantage. While it shouldn't be a consideration when buying a gun - if you're going to talk about which is the toughest handgun - I don't see how you can ignore it.

SDDL-UP
September 20, 2007, 09:25 PM
I'd love someone to get together a couple million rounds and put these through a test...

Glock
Sig
HK
CZ-75
Ruger P series
Beretta 92
Browning Hi-Power
S&W M&P
Springfield XD
Steyr M9



I really think it would be down to the CZ and the Glock in the end.

JohnKSa
September 20, 2007, 09:55 PM
I can tell you that you won't make money betting against the P-Series Rugers when it comes to durability. ;)

I think it would be a great test--but I don't think that 2 million rounds would be enough to shoot all those guns to the point of destruction.

larvatus
September 22, 2007, 10:03 PM
My MAB PA-15 has been wonderfully reliable. +1

After the P210, the MAB is the second most rugged handgun out there.

10 MickeyMouse
September 22, 2007, 10:34 PM
Toughest handgun

S&W 3rd gen. stainless guns and Ruger revolvers.

I give Glocks and HK's credit for what they are, but polymer simply cannot compete with stainless steel for durability.

W.E.G.
September 22, 2007, 10:49 PM
I give Glocks and HK's credit for what they are, but polymer simply cannot compete with stainless steel for durability.

Really?

Stainless steel doesn't crack? Like when it gets thrown out of an airplane or dragged behind a truck.

SDDL-UP
September 23, 2007, 12:15 AM
Now that's just silly.

Stainless steel is really good for CORROSION RESISTANCE, that's it. It is also tough enough to make guns out of, but it's certainly not the toughest stuff out there.

Polymer has a proven record... short term, over the last twenty five years or so. Will is still be tough, durable, safe and functional in 100 years? I don't know but I bet it wouldn't if you left it on the dash of your car for that long. The sun just destroys stuff. Stainless will be around, as will regular chrome moly steel guns, albiet likely with some rust. I have my share of polymer guns and don't have reservations about their toughness, but in the REALLY long run...?

JohnKSa
September 23, 2007, 12:25 AM
I don't know but I bet it wouldn't if you left it on the dash of your car for that long. The sun just destroys stuff.I don't have numbers for all polymer pistols, but I can tell you that the mechanical properties of a Glock pistol frame will be degraded by approximately 0.05% after being exposed to the equivalent of 100 years of continuous sunlight.

Gun manufacturers DO consider the long term durability of their products. While they may not publish all the testing results that lead them to choose a particular material, a reputable manufacturer is not going to sell a product that degrades rapidly due to exposure to a normal operating environment.

gordo_gun_guy
September 23, 2007, 01:30 AM
there are many many reports of beretta stoppages, some mag related, others because of the fine sand getting into everything

I'm that guy who formerly could say I've never had a malfunction with my M-9 or civilian 92.:eek:

I won't go into details, but as I tried to slam a mag home, I got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach as I felt grinding tightness just before the mag seated. The mag was stuck tight; no drop free, no pulling out with fingernails. The slide was locked tight, too. By getting angry, I found the strength to force the slide back enough to push the mag out from the top. Great, with a safely unloaded weapon I came off the line to find the CLP!

Next problem: as I field strip the thing, the slide won't come off the front! After checking the disassembly lever three times, I used a rap on the edge of the table to finally take her down.

Do I hate the M-9 now? Heck no! With only a dirty rag, a sharp puff of breath into the trigger group, and a few drops of CLP I had a working weapon in less than two minutes. If you piled sand into the empty mag well of a Glock or any other pistol (rather than burying them and knowing to shake the excess off) you'd have had a similar result.:D

In fact, I was suitably impressed that the trigger feel didn't suffer for all the grit. (Which is my only complaint about the excellent Ruger autos: they have a trigger so mushy I expect to see bungy cords when I field strip one.)

I do know, I'm a big fan of AF policy carrying the Beretta with one in the hole and off safe. And if I ever again have to carry Army style with an empty pistol, I'll be joining those crusty old soldiers who stuff a rag in the magwell.:D

Engineering dorkery:
polymer simply cannot compete with stainless steel for durability.
Most stainless steels have poor durability compared to carbon steels in terms of fatigue failure, galling, brittleness etc. Fortunately, fatigue crack propagation is mostly a surface phenomenon as is galling, so adding a hard, bonded coating like Melonite/Tenifer really is more than cosmetic; it transforms a mechanically inferior, but chemically more resistant steel into a great material able to withstand cyclic stresses (firing thousands of rounds).

Likewise, I wouldn't want a titanium framed gun, unless it also had a good surface coating, like TiN.

Aluminum metallurgy is....complicated.:rolleyes:

Donovan655
September 23, 2007, 01:51 AM
aww geez...another Beretta hate fest. :rolleyes:

SDDL-UP
September 23, 2007, 02:09 PM
JohnKSa,

Thanks for the information. I don't doubt what you state, per Glock, but I doubt the degradation would be that minimal. I have absolutely NOTHING to back that up, just that maybe... under very controlled conditions, like at sea level, on the equator, (where the atmosphere is thickest), and maybe even a constant 65 deg.F, there is that little bit of degradation. That would be an interesting test... leave a Glock (or any polymer framed handgun) on a car dashboard in the high Arizona desert. Maybe 120 degrees outside the car during the summer and below zero in the winter... five or ten years worth? I would thing there would be far more than .05% degradation just from that.

I still have and like my polymer framed guns, not trying to bash them in any way, just being realistic.

JohnKSa
September 23, 2007, 02:57 PM
Without being unpleasant, it's clear that this is the operative part of your post:I have absolutely NOTHING to back that up...

BTW, here's a reference for the information:

http://www.glockfaq.com/generalinfo.htm#polymer

The frame is black due to the addition of a material which prevents degradation from UV.

Alnamvet
September 23, 2007, 03:17 PM
all those who have called Glock's "tupperware" had it all wrong per www.glockfaq.com :p

FirstFreedom
September 23, 2007, 04:01 PM
Best, toughest, most reliable, most accurate, best value...

The answer is always the same (except for best finish, and most accessories made for):

CZ 75

:)

HappyGunner
September 23, 2007, 04:13 PM
I would put the XD-45 Service as a really tough handgun.:)

Mosin44az
September 24, 2007, 02:09 AM
There was a good article in Shotgun News awhile back, by an expert who evaluated the performance of the Beretta in Iraq. I recall the conclusion was that cheap military-contract mags were a major issue with the Beretta's reliability problems; I recall also that the pistol needed to be lubed a bit more than other makes to work. The 1911 was mentioned in this category also.

The pistols that sounded best for military use were the Glock and the HK, both work without lubrication.

SDDL-UP
September 24, 2007, 08:29 AM
JohnKSa,

Thanks for the link! I learn something new every day!

All I'm saying is that we have a PROVEN track record with steel in firearms, and not all of it has been good. We have a more limited record with various polymer framed guns, almost all good. Also 100 years of UV exposure in a laboratory is probably quite different than 100 years of UV exposure in the real world... as in on a dashboard. That's all I'm saying. Mine are kept in a safe most of the time anyway... hey does that light stay on when I close the door?! :eek:

Just kidding, it doesn't even have a light! :p

Willie D
September 24, 2007, 09:00 AM
Projections on the longevity of plastics are just that, projections. Nearly always those projections thus far have turned out too optimistic.

I would still put most of the big name polymer handguns in the tough category because they take abuse well and their engineering allows them to run in adverse conditions. Will I want to try and shoot one when it is over 100 years old like some of my firearms? You try first.



The M9 is a reliable gun but its adoption had more to do with Berretta's lobbying smarts, lack of proven track record of polymer pistols when testing started and the decocker+safety probably seemed the best way to cover the Brass' ass against ND's.

onesiphorus
September 24, 2007, 12:13 PM
You started with I wonder why... When the military, the Federal government and the defense industry are involved, just follow the money. Money arranges every deal that is made and niether logic nor testing will win against dollars to made by all concerned.

AFshooter
September 25, 2007, 11:20 AM
Funny, before I joined I thought "mil-spec" meant it was of higher quality. Now I know it means lower.

HappyGunner
September 25, 2007, 12:41 PM
The "mil-spec" unless a Military inspector is buying the parts it means not much.:mad:

Ocraknife
September 26, 2007, 07:40 PM
Projections on the longevity of plastics are just that, projections. Nearly always those projections thus far have turned out too optimistic.

Would you mind posting your source for the above? I'd like to read it.

cryption
September 26, 2007, 07:50 PM
I've put 1000 rounds a week through my Ruger MKII for 7 years. It looks worn, but I haven't even had to replace any springs. That's one solid puppy.

odessastraight
September 26, 2007, 09:34 PM
Active duty from Vietnam to Iraq gave me the chance to get up close and personal with both the 1911A1 and the M9. No mater if you man a crew served weapon, carry a rifle, or are just an Admin type there will be times when your handgun is the best/only choice. It's with you, always. So, some tense times with both 1911A1 and M-9 in sweaty hand (I remember the times in the dark most) and my choice was/is always the 1911A1.

I never warmed up to the M-9 and spent hours during Dersrt Storm with a small file taking off the burrs on the followers in the junk issued mags.

I won't EVEN get into the 9mm thing.

Willie D
September 26, 2007, 11:26 PM
Would you mind posting your source for the above? I'd like to read it.


Whatever torture tests are used to estimate the longevity of new materials, the only real test is actual time. Too many variables exist in "the wild'. Exposure to sun, salts, gasses, you name it; everything takes it's toll. Only speaking from personal experience but I've had more than a few petroleum based products degrade faster than their stated shelf life while under less than torturous conditions. Remember how CDs were supposed to last 100 years? Maybe Glocks will last hundreds of years but I remain skeptical of any such claims until proven.

Elvishead
September 27, 2007, 06:56 AM
Not a Rossi!:mad:

Perldog007
September 27, 2007, 07:52 AM
I have never fired a shot in anger. Hope I never do. Have carried to work (security) both the beretta and the glock (96 & 23 respectively) . If it was me, I would take the glock every time.

I too would like to see our military switch to the glock. The Israeli method of racking the slide during presentation would require more training time but would address the loaded chamber issue. But that's just me.

I know the people making the decision have more knowledge to draw from, and I can only guess at their motivations. Personally, I saw no need to abandon the 1911 and the model 10.


My kid is a warrior, corporal type, Marine one each. His take is that if you are reaching for a pistol the situation is pretty bad. In that case my first choice would be to being somewhere else. Failing that, if restricted to 9mm, I would want a Glock.

10 MickeyMouse
September 27, 2007, 05:43 PM
Really?

Stainless steel doesn't crack? Like when it gets thrown out of an airplane or dragged behind a truck.

Never said you can't damage a SS gun, just that it's gonna hold up longer than plastic. Why do you think all the poly framed pistols use steel inserts where the stresses are highest?

The only advantage polymer has (aside from weight savings) is better memory; generally speaking, plastics can be deformed further than metals and return to their original form. On the backside, metals are more resistant to such deformation in the first place. Steel is also far less likely to suffer catastrophic failure. THe kind of Kb's we see with Glocks, HK's and the like (near or complete frame/grip failure from firing out of battery or case blowouts) aren't going to happen with all steel guns.

Plastics have come a long way; they've become stronger, more heat resistant, etc., but they still have limitations. If polymers actually were stronger than metals, we'd see guns and automobiles made completely of that material.

JohnKSa
September 27, 2007, 10:18 PM
If polymers actually were stronger than metals...Don't think anyone's said that. However, in certain applications, polymer can be more durable than metal. Durability is more than just raw strength.Why do you think all the poly framed pistols use steel inserts where the stresses are highest?Check out the Ruger P95 and P97. ;)

tplumeri
September 27, 2007, 10:38 PM
ive never owned a berreta (glock 22 was the first semi i ever bought) but i carried and fired berretas in my ten years in the army. couple reasons why the army uses them;
intuitive, easy takedown, cleaning and reassembly.
suberb reliability
typically only carried by officers behind the line
berreta made the best financial pitch to congress. that is probably the main reason our troops carry them.
just my opinion, but i was there.

RsqVet
September 27, 2007, 11:11 PM
Well given that this whole thread was started by Strum's test of his M9 I'd like to point out the following little saying from the research community:

One mouse is no mouse

In other words test some more M9's and in a more standardized way then crunch the numbers THEN come back and make a statement.

I'm not a big fan of the M9 as a hard use gun though the shinny ones are sexy as all get out, but even I will defend it based on that one test which if I recall correctly even the guy doing it pointed out did't amount to very much.

Personally I belive there are problems with the M9, and I suspect more than just the crudy second rate mags, it's probibly as other have mentioned the fact the military does not allot much care, money or effort to pistols for regular old line troopers. This fact and the various issues it brings up gets amplified by the fact that a happy trooper is a complaining trooper... it means that they give a darn (some general said this, not I), and that the pistol represents a certain personal statement of survial, defense, even style if you will.

Heck I have seen many a gun fail where I thought it should not, does this one example mean that gun is worthless? I think not.

As to the polymer thing I'm inclined to not question the statements of the polymer engineers too much, with a few rare exceptions polymers hold up shockingly well.

Having taken apart enough old pieces of junk, mostly passanger cars it amazes me how plastic holds up. Now if some crudy piece of cheap plastic stuffed under a hood in Detroit 35 years ago has not been reduced to powder by years of heat and stress under the hood, then I'm inclined to consider the claims of teutonic polymer pushers as crediable.

gordo_gun_guy
September 28, 2007, 02:06 PM
I too would like to see our military switch to the glock. The Israeli method of racking the slide during presentation would require more training time but would address the loaded chamber issue. But that's just me.

:barf::barf::barf:Israeli draw? I already gripe about having to carry an M-9 on safe when I'm with the Army (and empty in garrison). Since we're touching on the M9/M1911 thing, here's my non-caliber related thoughts:

If my choices are a 1911 carried condition 2 or an M-9 carried AF style (round chambered, safety off, relying on the judgment of the officer to not pull the trigger), I'll take the M-9.:eek:

If the choice is a cocked and locked 1911 vs an M-9 in any condition, I'll take the 1911, thank you.:D

On durability: Compared to the alloy frames on my Kel-tecs, my personal and issue Beretta frames seem infinitely more durable....

Alnamvet
September 28, 2007, 02:40 PM
Maybe there's still hope for this 'ol flyboy:)