PDA

View Full Version : Little lady wants to carry...


WhiteFeather93
September 11, 2007, 03:28 PM
Everyone break out your best grammer and facts!
My GF wants to start learning to shoot and carry a handgun.
Now I tried to talk her into a .38 snubby something like a airweight or a SS Taurus. But she insists she wants more safety and practicality. She wants more of an oh Sh$^ gun than a I can hit a flying clay at 50.

My thoughts lean towards:
XD Subcompact in 9mm
NAA Gardian in .380
Or a Seecamp in .380

It has to be small and preferably have a safety of some sorts. It would be wonderful to hear from actually ladies and what they carry maybe you could sway her...

Wildalaska
September 11, 2007, 03:29 PM
What fits her hand the best?

WildfirstquestionAlaska TM

gordo_gun_guy
September 11, 2007, 03:56 PM
I taught a 115 pound girl to shoot an XD .45 tactical very well.:D Carry is another thing though....

Are you an IDPA member? Their last journal had a great article by Julie Golosie sp? about holsters for chicks. It was geared more to competetion than daily use, though.

Whatever you do, try not to let her fall into the off-body carry trap!

MyXD40
September 11, 2007, 04:01 PM
my girly carries a XD Sub-compact 9mm and loves it. Small enough but big enough for her hand to grasp. Easy to shoot, built in saftey so she doesn't need to fumble with a manual saftey.

dwatts47
September 11, 2007, 04:17 PM
MHO,

avoid subcompacts (xd and glock okay, they're bigger)

every wife that I've known and seen shoot their husbands pocket gun says the recoil is too stiff.

Go for a full size gun (for weight, read low recoil), that she can comfortably reach the trigger on, and worry more about what fits her hand and less about what you like.

My wife (26yrs old, 5'1, 108) shoots a S&W 5943 DAO. it's heavy, has a much shorter trigger reach than an G-lock, and a flat backstrap like a 1911... plus no hammer bite, or manual safety to teach.

Few women WANT to learn to shoot. Keep it simple, they'll stay interested longer, retain more.

pax
September 11, 2007, 04:20 PM
Where to start ...?

Ahhh, might as well get the unpleasantness out of the way right up front. With the exception of the XD, none of the guns you suggested is appropriate for a beginning shooter. An airweight snubby in particular is a sucky choice for a beginning shooter, male or female. Miniscule low-contrast sights, tiny sight radius, obnoxious snappy recoil, long heavy trigger -- forget it! That's not a gun to develop good shooting habits with and it's not a gun to shoot just for the joy of shooting which is what you want your beginning handgunner to do a lot of. Scratch that one off the list right now. Especially since she's already had the good sense to tell you she doesn't want the little beast. (Do I hate snubbies? Nope. I like them. I just don't think they're appropriate for inexperienced shooters, absent some really overwhelming reason to get one, like maybe you want one so bad you'll definitely and absolutely pee your pants right there in the store if you don't get it right this minute -- that would maybe a good reason, but "because my boyfriend talked me into it" is really not.)

Everything else really depends on her, on the choices she's willing to make, on her determination to learn what she needs to learn, on her hand size, on what's important to her and what trade-offs she's willing to make to get those things.

Please let her know that an important part of the learn-to-shoot process is choosing her own gun. You can't do it for her because she needs the education she will get along the way. You can't even just narrow it down to three similar choices and let her eeny-meeny-miny-moe between those choices, because she needs that education if she is serious about learning to shoot and learning to defend herself. You cannot and should not narrow it down for her, or simply let her jump right past the major decision points, because the major branching choices (semi or revolver? DAO, DA, SA, striker fired? manual safety or no? polymer or metal? caliber choice?) each represent important learning points. Facing each fork in the road always brings up related opportunities for personal reflection, too -- which is very important for her own personal journey into responsible self defense.

For example, the choice between semi-auto and revolver often also prompts the beginner to consider whether she is serious about learning more, or whether she just wants a gun she can toss in a drawer somewhere. That's one small but important bit of self-knowledge which is prompted by this first major choice. The other major choices all represent similar opportunities for personal reflection, reflection that is necessary if her initial wish to defend herself is to grow into that rare and necessary hard knot of resolve to do whatever it takes.

Your role should be to suggest variants she might try and to steer her away from dangerously bad choices, but you shouldn't be guiding her toward any particular choice. Help her educate herself in all the trade-offs that are involved, while leaving her entirely free to make her own decisions, and you'll both be happier with the final result.

Finally, you can't pick out her specific gun for the same reason you can't buy her a specific pair of shoes: because gun fit is a very personal thing. She has to try the guns on herself to see if they fit her hands (www.corneredcat.com/FirstGun/tryongun.aspx). You can't do that because you cannot climb inside her skin and feel what she feels when she holds the gun.

That said, the XD-9 subcompact is a decent gun for both carry and learning to shoot, if she likes it and it fits her hand. The NAA Guardian has all the things wrong with it as a beginner's gun that an airweight snubby does. Haven't fired a Seecamp but I suspect the same of it.

But before you guys get down to individual guns, back up a bit and talk over the choice between semi & revolver with her. Then talk about the choices between external safeties vs no external safeties -- have her get outside opinions too even if they disagree with you. Talk about the trade offs between big guns and little ones, between heavy and light, between polymer and metal. Talk about the different trigger weights and about the differences in sights too. Do this while handing her various guns at the gun store and then let her tell you what she likes and doesn't like.

Don't narrow her choices ... widen them.

pax

chris in va
September 11, 2007, 04:26 PM
Mods can close this thread now because...well, Pax has the definitive answer! :D

Black Adder LXX
September 11, 2007, 05:42 PM
Mods can close this thread now because...well, Pax has the definitive answer!

+1... It was pretty much done when she posted her link :D

Jammer Six
September 11, 2007, 06:13 PM
You go, girl.

Your website is the site I refer guys to when they think they can pick a weapon for their girlfriend/wife/lover/SO.

My favorite is your piece you wrote to men. "How To Make Your Wife Hate Guns" cracked my wife up, and she's an anti.

Why shooters always choose women who can't access the web for themselves has always been beyond me...

'75Scout
September 11, 2007, 09:06 PM
Pax I saved your link to my favorites. I am going to get my wife to read in and I'll email it to my mother. They both want to learn about firearms, start shooting and get their CHLs. I am hoping reading an informative website created by a woman will at least be more interesting for them than hearing me start to ramble on yet again about guns.

WhiteFeather93
September 12, 2007, 12:55 AM
Pax you are a genius. I cannot thank you for that enough.
I will man up and admit a few things here.
Yes I think more than anything I want a snub. And I probably let that get into the way a good bit. We have discussed semi vs revolver she has mentioned what she wanted in a gun and I tossed out a few that came to mind. It is a very sensitive situation because she is only now coming to the realization that she needs to learn to defend herself. And I have the feeling that this is a fragile understanding. I would like to find a handgun that fits her now so we can start shooting. She has a few months before she is 21 and this will give us time to learn the basics. But its so hard trying to fit into the little box she describes. She wants external safeties, she wants ease of use, and she wants small easy to conceal. She doesn't care about cal, or fit and finish, take down or ease of cleaning. But I honestly am at a loss to find a gun that fits that bill.
Thank you all for sharing your insite and I have a feeling this will be a long process.

Jammer Six
September 12, 2007, 01:13 AM
Be careful, Brother. There are men all around us who can screw this up.

My wife, who doesn't like guns, came shooting with me a few times, and once actually came to the plates league I shoot in.

We were in the bay, and I was telling her what to expect, what the commands on the line would be, and she had just made the comment "oh, the plates are like the plates at the state fair!"

And some guy butts in, completely uninvited, and says "no, they represent the bad guy's head, and plates is about practicing for head shots."

That was the last time she came to plates with me...

Wrascal
September 12, 2007, 07:57 AM
My wife and daughter really like the Bersa Thunder 380 with optional rubber wrap-around grips. That may, or may not, appeal to her. But it's a cheap way to start.

XD 45
September 12, 2007, 09:58 AM
Get her a bresa .380 I use that as my "piss off gun". Should fit well in her hands and not much if any recoil involved

Bosko
September 12, 2007, 10:02 AM
Based on my many years as a Firearms Instructor who has taught a lot of women starting out in the federal service and in NRA Basic Pistol, who had never picked up a handgun much less shot one, I would respectfully suggest you consider what my wife carries: Ruger SP-101, .38/.357, 3 inch barrel, Hogue Monogrip. It's the perfect example of the KISS principle and it's tough as nails. Have a Ruger armorer smooth out the trigger and she will never want to take it off. My wife has upgraded to a 1911 Pattern Pistol in .45 ACP but she's not selling her "Roger Ruger". Good Luck!

easyG
September 12, 2007, 11:56 AM
I simple cannot, in good conscious, recommend a semi-auto.

In my opinion, your GF probably is'nt going to draw and shoot unless she really has no choice, and that would probably be only when she is actually being attacked.
And that's no time for a failure-to-feed, or a failure-to-eject, or any other mechanical or ammo malfuntion that would render an auto-loader inoperative.
So, given the odds of malfunction, the revolver is probably a better choice.

Having said that, here is something I recently posted on another forum....


Yes, snubbies are difficult to master IF you want to be able to consistantly hit COM on man-sized targets beyond 15 feet or so.

But consider this....
If you want a lightweight gun, that is extremely reliable, and very easy to operate, that requires very little maintenance, and still packs a good punch, and that will most likely be used at arms length range....then a "hammerless" snub-nose .38 is not necessarily a bad recommendation.

In my experience, the only real problem that most women have with a snubbie is (1) the heavy double-action trigger can be hard on their tiny weak fingers, and (2) the recoil of a light-weight snub-nose can be very harsh.
But even these problems will be somewhat neutralized during a real life confrontation....when the woman is fearing for her life and scared out of her wits she is not likely to have a problem overcoming the heavy trigger-pull or the fierce recoil.
It's more of a problem while shooting at the range.

And there is also another factor to consider....
The snub-nose is really a close range weapon but this actually works to a woman's advantage somewhat.
If someone is threatening a man, they just might shoot the guy from twenty feet away or more.
But most attackers, unafraid and confident that they can easily overpower a woman, will most likely close the distance....which brings them in to "belly gun" range (it's called "belly gun range" because you stick the gun into the belly of the target and fire--no need for sights and you really can't miss).
And I'm willing to bet that in most real shooting encounters, where a snub-nose was used, the shooter probably didn't even utilize the sights.

I realize how dangerous it is to allow an attacker to get that close, but like it or not, real life self-defense shooting situations are typically very close-range affairs.
Most criminals will hide their intentions until they are practically within arms reach.

I'm not really sure that I can think of a better firearm for a woman to carry if she is not an avid shooter.
The reliability of the revolver is a real advantage in my opinion (no worry of failure-to-feed or failure-to-eject).

Just food for thought.

pax
September 12, 2007, 12:03 PM
EasyG ~

It's possible this article was written just for you: http://www.corneredcat.com/Men/gunforman.aspx

pax

easyG
September 12, 2007, 12:16 PM
It's possible this article was written just for you
I read it, but I don't see how it pertains to the discussion at hand.

I maintain that the majority of non-LEO self-defense shootings occur at very close range.
And I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of the folks never even used their sights.

It would probably be something like this....

"Excuse me mame, you dropped some money."

"What?"

And then BAM the attacker punches her in the face or grabs her by the neck.



Or maybe the guy just walks right up to her and asks if she's married...and then get closer...and closer...until his chest is just inches from hers.

What's she going to do if he "feels her up", step back draw her pistol in a weaver stance and obtain a correct sight picture???

No way!!!

But she can have her hand on the snubbie in her purse or jacket pocket.
Heck, with a concealed hammer stub-nose she can even shoot it while it's still inside her purse or pocket.

Manedwolf
September 12, 2007, 12:17 PM
This is not Saudi Arabia. Not Pakistan. Not Iran.

Go to the range. Let HER rent and try out different guns. Let HER decide what she shoots best.

News flash, just basic reality...if you insist on picking out everything for your girlfriend or wife instead of letting her decide things on her own if she wants to decide on her own, eventually, she's gonna pick out some other sorts of things on her own, like another guy behind your back. ;)

EasyG: In my opinion, your GF probably is'nt going to draw and shoot unless she really has no choice, and that would probably be only when she is actually being attacked.

EasyG, with his seeming low estimation of women, is a candidate for that. Perhaps he needs to meet some of the women in the US military or the Israeli Defense Forces or such, and see if his estimations are true. (if they don't break his fingers for being such a chauvenist.) :D

pax
September 12, 2007, 12:19 PM
I read it, but I don't see how it pertains to the discussion at hand.

Let me explain a little more plainly, for those folks following along at home:

EasyG just recommended one specific gun as being appropriate for all women.

I pointed him to an article on my site that recommends one specific gun as being appropriate for all men.

pax

easyG
September 12, 2007, 12:27 PM
Keep in mind that I'm not being condescending toward women....I recommend a snub-nose revolver as a carry piece for men as well.

I love my semi's....Glock 17, CZ 75B, Ruger Mark III, Ruger P94...they're fun to shoot and plenty accurate too.
But I also spend hours practicing clearing jams and malfunctions too.

There's no getting around it, the revolver is simply more reliable.

rellascout
September 12, 2007, 12:28 PM
In my experience, the only real problem that most women have with a snubbie is (1) the heavy double-action trigger can be hard on their tiny weak fingers, and (2) the recoil of a light-weight snub-nose can be very harsh.
But even these problems will be somewhat neutralized during a real life confrontation....when the woman is fearing for her life and scared out of her wits she is not likely to have a problem overcoming the heavy trigger-pull or the fierce recoil.
It's more of a problem while shooting at the range.


When you say things like that anyone with a brain is going to tune out everything else you have to say. Pax has very politely posted what is a very informative write up on hand guns.

Why the sexist remarks? I shoot at local range near Quantico. There are often female FBI officers there training. They seem to have no issues blowing holes in targets at 25 yard with their Glock of choice.

Women are no different then men when it comes to handguns. If you practice and you are diligent you can shoot well. Enough said.

In the end let her pick her own gun that fits her hand and then get her the training and range practice time she will need to be proficient. This is sound advice for your wife, your brother, your sister or your father.

easyG
September 12, 2007, 12:35 PM
EasyG, with his seeming low estimation of women, is a candidate for that. Perhaps he needs to meet some of the women in the US military or the Israeli Defense Forces or such, and see if his estimations are true. (if they don't break his fingers for being such a chauvenist.)
Let me tell you a little something about myself.....

I served for six years in the US Army (communications, 31V10).
I served in a Combat Engineer company for a couple of years (15th Eng. BN, Ft. Lewis), and I served in an Armor unit too (2nd Tank, Camp Casey Korea), but my final duty station was in a Medical Co (326th Med, 101st ABN DIV, Ft. Campbell)....where I met my wife.
She was a Combat Medic and we both served in the Gulf War in the 101st (although we were not married at the time).
She, and several other female Soldiers, were the first women in the Army's history to be awarded the Combat Medic Badge.

So, I think I know a bit about women in the military.;)

easyG
September 12, 2007, 12:39 PM
Why the sexist remarks? I shoot at local range near Quantico. There are often female FBI officers there training. They seem to have no issues blowing holes in targets at 25 yard with their Glock of choice.
I have made no sexist remarks.
And I was at Quantico just last year to see my sister-in-law graduate from the FBI academy, so I know what you're saying.

But how many civilian shooters (male or female) are going to be engaging targets at 25 meters for self-defense?

BTW, my sister-in-law hates her Glock and told me she wants to go back to carrying her SIG (which she carried as a Detective in Ohio).

Here's a picture I took of the famous "Hogan's Alley"...

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/allenXdog/knives087.jpg

teejhot.40cal
September 12, 2007, 12:39 PM
What about a Kahr PM9?

antsi
September 12, 2007, 01:00 PM
I think the most important factor for any new shooter (male or female) is to enjoy shooting and to have some initial success and improvement to build confidence. I have a couple of very small concealment handguns but they are not what is most fun for me to shoot. I practice with them enough to be proficient, but they are definitely not what I take to the range for fun and definitely not what I would pick to introduce a new shooter.

The problem with this thread and many like it is that it is really combining two contradictory questions:
1) What are some good handgun choices for a new shooter to start learning on and enjoy shooting enough to want to do it more?
2) What are some good choices for small easy to conceal handguns for carry use?

Personally, I think it is more important for beginners to focus on #1 first. If they enjoy shooting and have fun and want to learn more, they will go out and find #2 on their own.

If you try to pick a #2 for them, and they don't enjoy it, don't feel like it was their choice, and don't take ownership and learn things on their own, then you have really done them a disservice.

pax
September 12, 2007, 01:08 PM
antsi ~

Excellent post, and right on target.

pax

easyG
September 12, 2007, 01:09 PM
Ansti,
I agree 100%.

I'm lucky, my wife was a Soldier like myself and she really enjoys shooting as much as I do.
And she's very proficient with alot of different types of firearms too.
And if the OP's girlfriend also likes to shoot, that's fantastic!

But I've learned over the years that there are plenty of folks who want a handgun for personal protection, but surprisingly, they really don't enjoy shooting that much (my mother falls in this category).

Regardless, in my opinion, there are guns that are fun to shoot, and then there are guns that are not so much fun but which are still very good as a light-weight, small and easy to carry concealed, self-defense gun (the snub-nose revolver falls in this category).
Or as the original poster put it:
She wants more of an oh Sh$^ gun than a I can hit a flying clay at 50.

If someone told me that they want to learn to shoot for fun, then I would not recommend a revolver at all....because I think auto-loaders are more fun and more accurate for newbies to shoot.
But for a "my life is on the line" gun, the revolver is the way to go due to its reliability.

It's just my opinion.

Cremon
September 12, 2007, 02:06 PM
Get her a Desert Eagle AE .50

Jammer Six
September 12, 2007, 02:26 PM
easyG, you don't know anything about teaching women to shoot.

You should leave it to pax, who is both a woman and an instructor.

Seriously.

rellascout
September 12, 2007, 02:27 PM
the heavy double-action trigger can be hard on their tiny weak fingers,

So all women have tiny weak fingers. Is that not a sexist statement. To defend ignorance with statements like I am married to a women does not mitigate your ignorance my friend.

pax
September 12, 2007, 03:29 PM
EasyG ~

It just seems to me that deliberately recommending an unpleasant, hard-to-shoot gun for a new shooter simply "because she won't learn to shoot anyway" is -- well, it's a great example of a self-fulfilling prophecy if nothing else.

There are lots of guns out there that are small enough to carry but large enough to shoot enjoyably, and which have good reliability, decent sights, and enough power to do the job.

That makes it particularly depressing that you would deliberately recommend one that you acknowledge is difficult to shoot with any degree of accuracy, produces fierce recoil, and has a trigger too stiff to be readily manipulated by anyone with "tiny weak fingers."

pax

MyXD40
September 12, 2007, 03:54 PM
yeah my girly is 5'7 and 112lbs. Fairly small girly. She packs around a sub-compact XD9 and has no problem shooting it. That's a fairly decently big gun Ithink, compared to others out there..

Redneckrepairs
September 12, 2007, 05:25 PM
My wife learned to shoot , and in fact carried daily in the pre pax days Her choices were not in accordance of my thoughts for her , nor would i have suspected them for her .

Point is , like pax says She needs to shoot and choose , dont be afraid to help , but point is to assist not to choose for her . beg , borrow , rent , whatever it takes for her to shoot everything , she will know what she likes and wishes to persue further .

1tfl
September 12, 2007, 06:01 PM
For past 4 or 5 months my wife and my sister went through my safe and shot everything in there from 22lr up to 45ACP. My wife ended up picking the Colt Cobra in 38 Special and my sister took the Colt Detective Special in 38 Special. We are now trying to figure out what ammo to use for SD in these revolvers. They both don't feel comfortable using +P ammo so it will have to be non +P.

Alnamvet
September 12, 2007, 06:10 PM
or a Walther PPK would be fine choices for the "little" lady.

1tfl
September 12, 2007, 06:14 PM
In my personal opinion Walther PP/PPK/PPKs is not a good choice for ladies.
The double trigger pull is usually in the 18 lb. range and can not be lowered much below 15 lb while still 100% reliable. Also, for some people the slide will cut the web of shooter's hand pretty badly.

... but I could be wrong.

Alnamvet
September 12, 2007, 06:18 PM
PPK's address the issue of slide cuts with a longer "beaver tail". As for the trigger pull...works fine for my 12 year old.

WhiteFeather93
September 12, 2007, 06:48 PM
Eek:eek: This thread started out on a good note and went sour in one day?:barf:
I didn't start this thread to have a wheelgun vs semi argument. And I certainly could care less what qualifications anyone has. :confused:

I wanted to hear from a woman's perspective what sidearms worked well for them.
Pax she read your entire post and is in the process of reading the link. She was very impressed with your post. (She is in college to become a HS English teacher.) But aside from your tallent in writting she stated that your post was right on. We plan on heading up to the local Cabelas (To look not buy:barf:) and to see what she likes. Than I can ask my local watering hole about letting her try one out. I really appriciate your insight, because although I have extensively studied ballistic charts and have had much experience in shooting a variety of sidearms I often forget how much fun that was. And I think the joy and excitement of picking and learning about that choice is exactly what she needs to keep her dedicated in mastering her self defense skills.
Will she ever get into target or match shooting? I don't know but I am happy as could be that she is now relizing the need for self defence skills.

In closing please if you have nothing positive to say and have nothing of value to add keep it to yourself. I really doubt telling her or myself what she should get will be adhered to. I think I got the advice I needed...

Jammer Six
September 12, 2007, 07:17 PM
WhiteFeather, you're going to fit right in here. And your wife is going to do just fine.

Welcome!

kristop64089
September 12, 2007, 07:38 PM
WhiteFeather, do what I do, Go to the Gun store and buy a gun (of course it has to be one you want)
If she likes it Sweet we got a winner.

If not, Repeat until you do:D

Thats how my wife found the G19 for her:)

Redneckrepairs
September 12, 2007, 07:48 PM
See above post for i want my detonics .45 and my browning hp back ... along with my citori , a couple of custom ruger .22s ect... well thank god she has not discovered bench rest yet lol . since when i showed her reloading she took one look and stated " that is a " man " thing " . I kid you not .

easyG
September 12, 2007, 07:53 PM
Wow....I don't know where to begin.

The Firing Line used to have a policy of sorts against personal attacks, but I guess that does not matter to some folks....
if they don't break his fingers for being such a chauvenist
Why the sexist remarks?
To defend ignorance with statements like I am married to a women does not mitigate your ignorance my friend.
I posted my opinions and why, and in return I'm called a ignorant sexist chauvenist.
Boy, I sure am glad that personal attacks are not condoned here on the forums, otherwise who knows what I may have been called.:rolleyes:


easyG, you don't know anything about teaching women to shoot.
Jammer Six,
Don't presume that you know me.
You don't.
In fact I have taught quite a few women to shoot.
That's why I said:
In my experience, the only real problem that most women have with a snubbie is (1) the heavy double-action trigger can be hard on their tiny weak fingers, and (2) the recoil of a light-weight snub-nose can be very harsh.
If you disagree with me, then fine.
I don't have a problem with disagreement.
But, as I have already stated, I have taught women to shoot, and yes, they did have trouble with heavy double-action triggers and the recoil of light-weight snub-nose revolvers....much moreso that the guys I have taught to shoot.
Are you trying to tell me my own experiences with teaching women???


So all women have tiny weak fingers. Is that not a sexist statement. To defend ignorance with statements like I am married to a women does not mitigate your ignorance my friend.
rellascout,
Calling another forum member ingnorant is a personal attack as far as I'm concern....and not just me.
Calling any of our forum members ignorant should not be accepted.
If you can't make your case or state your opinions without personal attacks then maybe you're on the wrong forum.
As for the "tiny weak fingers".....
Yes, IN MY EXPERIENCE, women have tiny weak fingers.
Certainly there are exceptions to every rule...
Maybe the original poster's girlfriend is 7'3" and 300 lbs of pure wookie, I don't know.
But I work at a hospital where the majority of the staff is female, and yes, in my experience, their fingers are much smaller and weaker than the most men's fingers.
Don't blame me, I'm not The Designer.


It just seems to me that deliberately recommending an unpleasant, hard-to-shoot gun for a new shooter simply "because she won't learn to shoot anyway"
Pax,
If you really believe that to be true then you did not read, or did not comprehend, a single word I posted.
As I said before, I would recommend a snub-nose to any shooter (male or female, experienced or not) who wants to carry concealed purely for self-defence.
Revolvers are simply more reliable than autos, and snub-nose revolvers are easy to use, and light-weight, and easy to conceal.
They are only hard-to-shoot when shooting for accuracy at medium to long range.
At arms-length, they are not hard to shoot accurately enough for self-defence.


yeah my girly is 5'7 and 112lbs. Fairly small girly. She packs around a sub-compact XD9 and has no problem shooting it. That's a fairly decently big gun Ithink, compared to others out there..
MyXD40,
Good for her and good for you.
But I still would not recommend a semi-auto to her for self-defense for the same reason I would not recommend it for you.
There's just too great of a chance for an auto to have a failure of some sort when your life is on the line.



Again, if you disagree with my opinions, then fine.
But make your arguments without the personal attacks.
And if you can't make a case without the personal attacks then you probably don't even have an argument worth presenting.

It seems that political correctness is alive and well in cyberspace.:(

pax
September 12, 2007, 08:30 PM
WhiteFeather ~

My apologies for getting sucked off-track in your thread ... :o I'll try to stick with the topic from now on.

EasyG ~

Peace.

pax

kristop64089
September 12, 2007, 08:37 PM
EasyG: you are picking up what I am putting down
Wow....I don't know where to begin.

The Firing Line used to have a policy of sorts against personal attacks, but I guess that does not matter to some folks

I think thats whay we are losing some good members...


In your defense...Of all the guns my wife has shot(aside from the G19)

Her absolute favorite is my S&W 637(she's ex-army, but not handgun savy at all) she is 140lbs 5'8".

She likes the weight, size feel, trigger, the fact that there is the SA option. the recoil is "controlable" It's simple, no slide to rack, no mag to load, no mag to mess with period. Is the saftey on, is it off?, whats a damn de-cocker?

These are all questions we have tackled together.

There is no 1 gun. but .38special is not that unpleasent to shoot compare to a Kahr pm9 shooting +p.

IMHO i think if you're already apprehensive about carry, why complicate things up front?

Unless you have selfish motivation...just throwing it out there

Jammer Six
September 12, 2007, 09:50 PM
Jammer Six,
Don't presume that you know me.
You don't.
Nope, I don't. So I took your words at face value.

Was that a mistake? Do you have a casual relationship with the truth, as well as "expertise" in teaching women to shoot?

easyG
September 12, 2007, 10:36 PM
Pax,

Agreed.
Peace and no hard feelings.

Easy

easyG
September 12, 2007, 10:38 PM
Do you have a casual relationship with the truth, as well as "expertise" in teaching women to shoot?
Casual relationship with the truth???

If I did not know better I would think that you just asked me if I was a liar.

But it doesn't matter, I'm done with you.


Easy

easyG
September 12, 2007, 10:41 PM
Whitefeather,

I apologize.
I did not realize that you wanted ONLY women to respond to your query.

I'll be sure not to give you unsolicited advice in the future.


Easy

Jammer Six
September 13, 2007, 12:19 AM
Excellent!

Buh-bye!

wilson133
September 13, 2007, 04:40 AM
Another important thing to remember is that what you get will be her first gun. Even if she does all the investigation and trying out as suggested above, she may end up with one that doesn't suit her in the long run. We've all bought guns that seemed like a good idea at the time.
My girlfriend shot my guns alot and then went and picked out a Kahr PM9. She still likes the way it feels but she has trouble staying on the paper at 25 feet. I can shoot it much better than that, so it is something about that gun and her. And it is just that gun, as she can shoot very well with any of my other guns, from a Ruger 95DC, a CZ clone 9mm, a Taurus PT140, to a Sig P220 or a couple of RIA 1911s. She is totally frustrated and doesn't want to give up on it, But I think maybe she should.
BTW, she tried several of my revolvers, large and small and only liked the 15-2 Dan Wesson.

rellascout
September 13, 2007, 07:40 AM
Easy G,

I respectfully disagree with you. Women in general do not have weak fingers. To state that as some sort of fact is ignorant.

You made a sexist generalization that has not place here and then you cry victim.

Nice form my friend.

You are certainly entitled to you opinion but others are entitled to call it what it is ignorance.

easyG
September 13, 2007, 07:58 AM
Rellascout,

I respectfully disagree with you. Women in general do have weak fingers when compared to men. For you to deny the truth is ignorant.

To label someone as a sexist simply for pointing out that men generally have stronger hands and fingers than women is mindless political correctness.

Poor form my friend.

You are certainly entitled to you opinion but others are entitled to call it what it is ignorance.

Justme
September 13, 2007, 08:01 AM
My daughter is 5'0" and around 100 lbs. She shoots the ruger sp101 fine with .38s but does not like the noise or recoil. She shot my brothers gp100 in 4" and my security six in 6 ", which she liked a little better but thought they were too heavy. She has tiny hands and wears a size 4 1/2 ring. She is also a nationally ranged track and field athlete and once leg pressed 600lbs. Not all "girlys are created equally.

However, after all that shooting she liked the keltec .32 best. It fit nicely into her small hands and she could actually control it better than most guys, simply because it "fit". I think they also come in pink and baby blue squirt gun colors which some girls find "cute".

The keltec, or seecamp if you are richer, are guns that actually get carried rather than put in a glovebox and forgot about.

Webleymkv
September 13, 2007, 08:44 AM
I would not presume to tell you what is best. However, I will give you a few examples of what some of the women I know like so that you have a good starting point in your search. My mother started off with a IJ70 Makarov in .380, she shot it well but had to re-familiarize herself with the controls every time she shot it. She immediately fell in love with my dad's first revolver (a Ruger Police Service Six) and has preferred that action ever since. Her two favorite handguns are presently a Ruger SP101 .357 Magnum and a S&W M29-2 .44 Magnum. My younger sister is much like my mom in that she prefers a revolver, however she much prefers a small revolver because they fit her smaller hands better. Her two favorite handguns are Mom's SP101 and my Colt Cobra. The last example that I have goes in the opposite direction. My boss brought his wife to shoot with us one day. She had never fired a gun before and was a bit apprehensive to say the least. My boss carries a Glock 23 and was hoping that his wife would prefer that. I had brought the following handguns: S&W M66-2 .357 Magnum, S&W M21-4 .44 Special, Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum, and CZ-75 9mm. Of all the guns present, she much preferred the CZ-75 (I had the .357's loaded a bit light and wasn't so stupid and to start a new shooter with full power .44 Magnums), even getting to the point of wanting to learn to load the magazines herself. She said that the 9mm recoiled less than the revolvers and that the CZ fit her hand much better than the Glock. These may be a few options for her to try as they've worked for others in the past. But as has been said before, only she can make the final decision.

Jammer Six
September 13, 2007, 10:08 AM
It's sexist.

The moment you say it, others will recognize it, and you, for what you are.

In some places, you will be tolerated. This is not one of those places. Here, you will face a number of real men who will point out the reality of the situation.

It looks bad on you. I don't see why you'd choose it.

We don't know you-- we only know what you say here.

Either what you've said isn't what you meant to say, or your views are sexist.

That you don't see them as sexist is sad, but it isn't our weight to carry.

rellascout
September 13, 2007, 10:28 AM
It's sexist.

The moment you say it, others will recognize it, and you, for what you are.

In some places, you will be tolerated. This is not one of those places. Here, you will face a number of real men who will point out the reality of the situation.

It looks bad on you. I don't see why you'd choose it.

We don't know you-- we only know what you say here.

Either what you've said isn't what you meant to say, or your views are sexist.

That you don't see them as sexist is sad, but it isn't our weight to carry.
__________________

Well stated.

Back on topic. A snub might be the right choice. It might not.

I love to take new shooters to the range. I love to help people pick a personal protection firearm.

Whenever I do this regardless of the sex of the shooter I bring lots of stuff. I bring a Glock 19, Sig P228, S&W 642, Colt 1911(Commander & Full sized) , CZ P01 and a Sig P225.

I let them shoot them all. I show the how each one works. I show them the advantages and the disadvantages of each platform. We shoot them all and then talk about what they liked and what they disliked. From there they can make positive decisions based on their experience.

Jammer Six
September 13, 2007, 10:35 AM
Well stated.
Thank you.

Back on topic.
Yup.

She has to choose, but I think WhiteFeather got that, before all the foolishness started.

Another accolade for pax-- you go, girl! Happy to play backup to talent like yours! :D

easyG
September 13, 2007, 10:55 AM
This is crazy!

I cannot believe that anyone could be called a sexist for making a truthful statement.

If you think men and women are equal in physical strength then you should watch the Olympics.
There's a reason women and men don't compete directly....because if they did, very few women would bring home a medal.

And there is a very good reason that women have lower physical fitness standards in the military than men....because if they did not, well over half of the females in the military would be discharged for failure to meet the male standards.

Like it or not, the average male of the species is bigger, heavier, and stronger than the average female of the species.
It's not sexist, it's a fact.

pax
September 13, 2007, 11:27 AM
<reluctantly pulling 'staff' hat on>

Guys ~ the OP asked very nicely if we could get his thread back on track. Please do so.

The issue isn't what "women" can or cannot do. The issue is, which gun would be appropriate for this particular woman.

Ask questions. Suggest resources. Suggest guns or types of guns to try. Provide information that is germaine to the topic ... or don't post here.

Thanks.

pax

Super38
September 13, 2007, 11:46 AM
Whitefeather
I can only give you my experience with my wife and HER first gun. I brought home a S&W 642 Airweight .38. Three shots later my wife handed it back and went into the house. Told me that if that was the best thing I could get for her then she was through with guns and shooting. Well, back to the gunshop I go. After a long conversation with an older fellow there, I left with another .38 S&W revolver, a K frame model 14 4" barrel. Took it home and finally got the wife to agree to give it another try (with the "this is the last time" disclaimer). Well, to make a long story short, she loved it. After several hundred rounds and a few months later, she said that she wished the trigger was a little smoother. I had a local smith put new springs in and do some polishing on the innards. I'm here to tell you that is one sweet revolver. And when I mention trading or selling something, the wife is always quick to remind me that is "her" gun.

Now she carries a Beretta Tomcat (stainless) and keeps a SigPRO 9x19mm at hew bedside. She goes to the range when I go and enjoys shooting as much as I do. And she can shoot pretty good too!

As for advice on what you should/shouldn't buy, I think it's all been said somewhere in the previous posts. But don't let yourself get in the way of a smart choice. The K frame S&W revolver was made to fit the average male hand in the 1940's. People in general are a little larger now and the K Frame now fits the avreage female hand to a tee. In fact, with few exceptions, it fits everyone and is relatively easy to shoot and shoot surprisingly well. It's about the ONLY gun I would ever recommend to ANYONE. And it's the only gun you can start with a .22 and go up to .357 on the same grip size.

Whatever you do, Good Luck!! Let us know how it goes.

rellascout
September 13, 2007, 11:53 AM
My wife is the same way about our Sig P228.

She refers to it as her gun too. I get to borrow it if I am good but would loose my head if I ever sold it not that I ever would.

Jammer Six
September 13, 2007, 11:56 AM
When I teach, all students start with a .22 auto, which they shoot for the first evening, while I drill the basic safety habits into them. When the evening ends, not only will they have put holes in paper, but they will all have the four safety rules memorized, and will have seen how they are applied on the firing line. Night one is more about the safety rules than about the holes in the paper.

We then progress through a 9mm-.38 night, using .357 revolvers for the .38s, and at the end of the evening, when people are comfortable, we start loading one .357 in with the .38s. No one shoots until they recite the safety rules.

The last night is a .40-/.45 semi-auto night, and by that time, they're pretty confident and the transition is fairly simple.

The last shot, for the few who volunteer and want to do it, is a S&W .500 revolver.

We deliberately make several brands of both revolvers and semi-autos available in the caliber of the night, and strongly encourage all students to try all weapons.

The reason isn't to decide which weapon they like, the reason is the philosophy pax outlined-- for the student to become aware of the basic groups of handguns, semi-auto vs. revolver, single action vs. double action v. single-double action, what the differences are between them, and how all those fit together and need to be examined before a choice is made.

One of the weapons that we use, as it happes, is a nasty little Airweight, snub nose revolver in .38.

No one ever says they like it, and many, many people don't even finish shooting it. It serves as our "NObody likes THAT gun..." example.

It does, however, serve to make the point that weapons are different, and the broader the selection, the better the end choice.

In class, I've seen full grown adult men break down and cry when a .357 went off in their hands, and I've seen a tiny, 14 year old girl, no bigger than four and a half feet tall, put 7 rounds of factory .45 into the black at twenty one feet out of a government 1911, drop the mag, clear the weapon, and turn around with a huge grin on her face.

To give credit where it's do, I stole your methods, pax. I teach the methods on your site for people who have trouble racking the slide. I have yet to run into a student who couldn't rack the slide after being taught your techniques.

Thank you.

The conclusion I've reached after teaching hundreds of students (I'm a fairly new instructor) is that there's no way to tell who is going to like what.

There certainly is no single weapon that everyone will like, there is no "right" weapon.

Good luck, WhiteFeather, and again, welcome!

Alnamvet
September 13, 2007, 12:13 PM
...and I was feeling guilty for posting 'cause I am a guy...almost deleted my posts thinking my thoughts were not welcome...they still may not be.