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View Full Version : Is this the best CCW? Maybe so....


SA2112
September 11, 2007, 06:03 AM
I'm not sure, but am leaning in this direction.

In a CCW, I prefer a weapon with a total of 8 rounds of ammunition. PERIOD. While I practice every other Saturday morning, and am a very accurate shot, in a time of stress-fire, one has to admit adrenaline might allow for a few missed shots despite frequent range trips... hence my preference for at least 8 round capability.

The Cylinder & Slide Custom Kahr Carry Package is a finished version of a Kahr PM9 9mm. OEM, the PM9 is...

Length: 5.3 inches
Height: 4.0 inches
Weight: 14 oz / magazine 1.9 oz.
Capacity: 6+1 (7+1 with magazine extension).

Cylinder & Slide, long known for its exacting work, performs the following...

1. Full reliability package.
2. Trigger pull smoothed and lightened.
3. Full carry bevel (???)
4. Tactical texture of polymer grips.
5. XS 24/7 night sights.
6. Recrown barrel 11 degrees.
7. Radius/polish trigger.
8. Chamfer around magazine release.
9. Test fire for reliability and zero sights.

Certainly not cheap @ $1395.00 but how much is your life worth?

Personally speaking, I greatly prefer the .45 ACP, but lets face facts, with MODERN, predictably expansive, ammunition, the 9mm has become a respectable caliber.

With the above modifications, IMHO, this firearm seems to be a major contender for the "Best CCW" available at this point in time.

While I'm sure C&S can perform the same modifications of Kahr .40/.45 pistols, the magazine capacity would be less than the 8 rounds I prefer.

At any rate, I expressed my desire for an 8 round, major caliber, but very small/easily concealed weapon... and my determining factors.

I'd like to know what others think so please reply.

Suggestions?

Unregistered
September 11, 2007, 06:32 AM
I think I would pass.

If your gun is already 100 percent reliable, then the reliability package is unnecessary.

I have no idea what a full carry bevel is, or how it would make the gun any better.

I don't need grips with a "tactical" texture. I think "tactical" is just a marketing tool used by gun companies.

Recrowning the barrel is unnecessary, especially in a small gun used for concealed carry.

Why do I want the area around the magazine released chamfered? I see no way that would improve anything.

I don't need to pay someone to test fire for reliability and zero the sights. I can do that at the range.

I think the only important things in that package are the night sights and trigger work. But you can get both of those done for less than $250 easily.

Also, if you ever sell your gun, you will get almost nothing for the extra work you are talking about putting into it.

Now, if you like the idea of having a custom carry piece and it makes you happy, then go for it. But I don't think you are really doing much that will help the gun perform better (except night sights and trigger work) and you will never get your money back out of it. Trust me. Been there, done that, not doing it again.

Redneckrepairs
September 11, 2007, 07:06 AM
My Kahr pm9 has night sights from the factory and they shoot where they look .
The trigger smoothed right up after a couple hundred rounds and is light enough to shoot accurately ( i can break clay pidgins at about 20 yards with the little beast). After the first couple of hundred rounds my Pm has never had any reliability issues whatsoever . Carry bevel?? come on what are you going to do to this snag free little beast to improve it for carry since it has no place that pokes rubs or snags as shipped from the factory . Grips ?? I promise you if you want anything done to the grips it will be to make them less tactile ( smoother) not more " tactical " . In short i would say pick up a current production pm ( or at least one with a serial prefix of ab or later ) to avoid the early issues some pms had, and spend the rest of that $$ on quality ammo and leather .

PSP
September 11, 2007, 07:16 AM
I'm glad you've found your perfect CCW but, why not carry the Kahr .45 if that is the prefered caliber?

FWIW, I have a K9 and a T9. I find them to be very well made and reliable but accurate eludes me. The trigger is just too long and lacking crisp, clean breaks.

SA2112
September 11, 2007, 07:19 AM
^I've not found the perfect CCW... I'm still looking, hence my post.

You might want to actually READ the post you are replying to.

PSP
September 11, 2007, 07:29 AM
This part threw me off...

With the above modifications, IMHO, this firearm seems to be a major contender for the "Best CCW" available at this point in time.

I'd like to know what others think so please reply.

Suggestions?

Happy hunting.

sholling
September 11, 2007, 11:04 AM
I have to agree completely with Unregistered and Redneckrepairs. The C&S package is completely unnecessary and way overpriced. The factory night sights are about $100 when ordered with the weapon and shoot to point of aim. The trigger of my PM40 is just fine for what the little pistol is going to be used for but if yours needs a trigger job go for it. The rest of that $1395 is $1100 worth of completely unnecessary fluff. Save your money for one more spare magazine, some quality leather, some premium carry ammo and plenty of practice ammo.

SA2112
September 14, 2007, 08:39 AM
sholling,

I appreciate your reply.

I guess what really concerns me about the PM9 is some of the reliability issues associated with the polymer models. We've all read posts about this I'm sure. The steel version of the 9mm hasn't had the same problems associated with it, at least as best I can determine.

Many years ago, I was one of the first few citizens in Arizona with a CCW permit... and over time, I decided to let it lapse. A few things have made me decide to carry again... Virginia Tech... and the fact that a disgruntled, psychotic, meth addicted, former patient entered the Level One Trauma Center I work at with with a concealed sawed off 12 gauge shot gun and 21 rounds of ammo. But for a retired ex-cop now working security, and his Czech security trained German Shepard, my hospitals "body count" might have been splashed all over nationwide news.

I'm looking for a RELIABLE, major caliber (and I consider a properly loaded 9mm "major") that I can carry in a pocket when off duty, and in a locked weapon container in a jump bag when on duty in the Emergency Room. I'll go with the stainless steel version of the Kahr, but would prefer the lightweight of the polymer. Hence the reason I was interested in a Cylinder & Slide version of the PM9.

(for what its worth, the German Shepard chewed the hell out of this guy. That dog, and that guard, are now on my Christmas list)

Alnamvet
September 14, 2007, 08:54 AM
...do you REALLY want to own a gun that someone is offering to make "reliable"? What does that say about the gun box stock?

SA2112
September 14, 2007, 09:00 AM
Nearly every OEM item I am aware of can be improved... unless it is a one-off custom make.

Alnamvet
September 14, 2007, 09:02 AM
...improvements that are purely cosmetic in nature appeals to those who must have something different...but reliabilty packages makes me wonder.

gvf
September 14, 2007, 09:51 AM
Depends on what you mean by Best - Best for who? you or the BG? The best for me is a Colt Detective in a pocket holster. The best for the BG - or stopping the BG - is a big .357 4" Colt Python or .45 Gap 7" Glock, because they're BIG, SCARY-Looking and Very Powerful, Very Accurate, easy to get a good grip quickly because they're full size.

Are they the Best for my comfort? No, but I can do fine with the Python in an Alessi IWB and the Glock in an Uncle Mike's OTB. So, I tend to carry these more than the little one.

Just my opinion, but while CCW can't be painful, in the long run you don't Carry for your comfort but for the BG's DIScomfort.

SpectreBlofeld
September 14, 2007, 02:14 PM
I'd like one of these...
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/jdarkcrown/myhomepage/gadget.html

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/jdarkcrown/images/asp_2000_004.jpg

Playboypenguin
September 14, 2007, 02:34 PM
I have several guns that are meant for CCW. None of them are perfect for every situation but all of them are perfect for some situations. :)

Some days my ParaOrd 1911 is perfect and other days my Seecamp LWS380 is perfect. It all depends on the circumstances of that particular day. :)

The best thing to do is own multiple CC weapons and be able to choose the appropriate one for you needs that day. Barring that decide what needs/circumstances are going to be the most common ones for you and try to find a gun that meets those requirements.

ooreach
September 14, 2007, 02:46 PM
PBP, love your zombie tag line... Yes, i'm still searching for the gun the size of a wallet with at least 7 rounds. I can carry much in my smart carry, but darn it, I want some comfort. I've chosen to carry 24/7 so I want to be comforable and conforted by what I carry. And even though I'm 100% legal I still don't want to print or feel confined. Taurus pt111 pro is the best i've found in 12+1 auto, but if I could get away with a slightly thicker grip i'd look into the xd45 for the grip safety. I use revolvers so a saftey is only a secondary concern, as long as my fingers stay where they belong it wont go off.

the pm9 looks good. I know there thin, if you can rent it, try it on the range.

cabbynate
September 14, 2007, 03:02 PM
One more thing you may want to consider is that if you ever need to use this weapon in self defense, most likely you will be sued by the bad guys family, wife or who ever. The prosecuting attorney is going to say "This The Cylinder & Slide Custom Kahr Carry Package semiautomatic gun was custom built to kill!!!!" This man Paid an Extra $500.00 to make sure he would be able to kill what he shot at!!!!

I don't feel this way at all but the prosecuting attorney will use everything against you he can find and most jurors are not gun savvy. It ma be in your best interest to find something that works well almost stock from the factory for CCW. Better yet ask your lawyer what he thinks about the gun you are looking at and all the modifications and see what he thinks........

MTS840
September 14, 2007, 04:13 PM
I just don't get it. With all the offerings from companies such as Glock, HK, Sig Sauer, Beretta and Smith and Wesson, I think I could find an out of the box gun for CCW without sending it to somebody for a 'reliability package.' Police and military agencies all over the world use guns from these companies for good reason. With proper care and maintence, they work well as designed. Everything else is up to the shooter.

LUPUS
September 14, 2007, 04:54 PM
I do not want to waste my and your time by just repeating all the words spelled by MTS840. Just my 0.02$.
Best

Wiskey_33
September 14, 2007, 05:06 PM
Why are you set on 8 rounds?

sholling
September 14, 2007, 05:42 PM
SA2112,

I have a PM40. I have no way to prove it yet but I suspect that the wear issues I've read about were a teething issue in early production pistols. So far after after 350rds or so I haven't seen it on mine. In fact it's barely broken in.

The issue with mine was a failure to go fully into battery due to a poorly formed feed ramp. After completing my mandatory 250rd break-in I gave customer service a call and they had me overnight it at their expense. Nice folks! To make sure we were on the same page I included the bullet (only) from an unfired FTF which helped them to locate and solve the issue right away. They returned it a week later a changed weapon. I cannot attest to reliability yet because I've only put 100 flawless rounds through it since I got it back. Ask me again after 200 more rounds. It's a 50 mile drive to the range so it'll be a week or two more before I go back.

Now that I've frightened you off, let me say that I suspect that there are probably more issues with the PM40 than there are with the PM9. The PM9 has been around a lot longer and the 9mm is not going as challenging to feed smoothly as the 40S&W. Even with the issue that I've had I consider $1300 to be too much for something that will probably not be an issue, and if it is then Kahr will fix it for free.

michael t
September 14, 2007, 06:52 PM
Just get a Colt Defender and have the perfect CC weapon in 45 . Kahr is far from perfect.

Playboypenguin
September 14, 2007, 06:59 PM
Yes, i'm still searching for the gun the size of a wallet with at least 7 rounds.
How about the Rohrbaugh R9s. It is very small and with one in the pipe the capacity is seven rounds. For even smaller still the Seecamp LWS380. If you do not mind something bigger (too big for a true wallet carry) but still very smal, as well as powerful, check out the Kahr MK40. :)

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Handgun%20collection/RohrBaugh.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Handgun%20collection/LWS380.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Handgun%20collection/KahrMK40.jpg

Doyle
September 14, 2007, 07:28 PM
For 8 shots and absolute reliability, you can't beat a Makarov.

Socrates
September 14, 2007, 08:08 PM
Wow. Take the only Kahr that's reliable, charge 1000 dollars for a 'reliability' package, and, the guys at cylinder and slide must be taking lessons from Enron...:rolleyes:

Now, I might consider that worthwhile if they can get the 40 Kahr to work.

REally, wouldn't you be better off carrying 3, or 4 S&W pre lock snubbies for that kind of money???

S

zukiphile
September 14, 2007, 08:40 PM
Is a Sig 239 too large?

I have large hands, and that is about as small as I can go comfortably.