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View Full Version : Who's polymer gun is best?


dwatts47
September 10, 2007, 02:26 PM
Let the plastic war begin!!

mako8551
September 10, 2007, 02:39 PM
hk

hoytinak
September 10, 2007, 02:40 PM
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9152/hkut9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Alnamvet
September 10, 2007, 02:46 PM
Glock, of course.

dwatts47
September 10, 2007, 02:50 PM
:D:o:pPoll is working now.

If you need assistance voting click "Glock" , you won't be wrong.

Silvanus
September 10, 2007, 03:09 PM
http://i23.servimg.com/u/f23/11/50/35/28/glock10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=24&u=11503528)

minsonngo
September 10, 2007, 03:10 PM
Glock.

longarcher75422
September 10, 2007, 05:47 PM
GLOCK of course!

quickcanary
September 10, 2007, 06:03 PM
Sigh... Threads like this tend to end up ruffling feathers. Besides, if everyone simply casts a vote and doesn't back up that vote with a reason, it's much less interesting and informative.

I would vote Glock simply because I own one and it's been flawless. But I will be the first to say there is no "best." Even if there were, this poll would be skewed because I'm willing to bet there are far more Glock and XD owners here than HK or Kahr owners based simply on the fact that not everyone thinks HK is worth the price of admission or that Kahr fills a void in their collection...

Oh well, that's my $0.02. Carry on. :p

FirstFreedom
September 10, 2007, 06:06 PM
Interesting Question: Strictly on overall function/quality, not value, I'd rank them roughly as follows:

1. Wilson KZ45
2. Walther
3. S&W M&P
4. HK USP, etc.

5. (tie) SA XD
5. (tie) Kahr

7. Sig
8. Taurus 24/7
9. Glock
10. S&W Sigma

The Kimber and the *other* polymer Wilson could be up there as well - I don't know enough about them to rank them. Actually, I don't know enough about MANY of them to rank them adequately - take my .02 opinion for what little it's worth - I've only owned the Wilson, the Taurus, & Glocks in polymer guns.

Taurus_9mm
September 10, 2007, 08:02 PM
I voted for the Springfield XD but am very partial to the Ruger P series as well. :p

Pops 1
September 10, 2007, 08:08 PM
Glock

kristop64089
September 10, 2007, 08:17 PM
MINE!(Glock)

rantingredneck
September 10, 2007, 08:19 PM
No love for Ruger?
P345 and P97 baby. Both flawless and damnably accurate.

EIGHTYDUECE
September 10, 2007, 08:19 PM
HK USP with the XD & Glock equally coming in close second.

The trigger pull of the USP is just much better than the striker fired guns.

I do see a XD .45 compact and a Glock 19 in my near future though:D

steinermd
September 10, 2007, 08:28 PM
My vote is for SA XD.

I have an XD 40 5" it shoot well and I have had no issues with it.

I don't know anyone who has a Glock, but I will try one someday
.

Axion
September 10, 2007, 09:17 PM
This thread is dumb (sorry but it is) how is a Glock any better then an H&K or a Sig Pro or a P99? It's not. How are any of the others better then the rest? They're not. They are all great, slightly different guns, pick the one you LIKE the best.

stmcelroy
September 10, 2007, 09:23 PM
Interesting Question: Strictly on overall function/quality, not value, I'd rank them roughly as follows:

1. Wilson KZ45
2. Walther
3. S&W M&P
4. HK USP, etc.

5. (tie) SA XD
5. (tie) Kahr

7. Sig
8. Taurus 24/7
9. Glock
10. S&W Sigma

Wow you must really be a Glock hater, how could the best selling polymer pistol(i'm just guessing based on LE sales)in the US for the past 20 years be worse quality wise than a Taurus, Kahr, XD and S&W M&P?

You rarely hear of a Glock not functioning right out of the box like some of the others.

There have been numerous issues with all things Taurus and Kahr polymer guns have been very hit and miss.

While the XD and M&P are nice they need many more years of use and abuse to prove they are better than a Glock.

I have owned HK's and XD's and they were no better than any of the Glock's I have owned just different.

RJM
September 10, 2007, 09:41 PM
I had a glock g21 but sold it. It was fine and all, but didn't fit my hand well enough and quite frankly I could never get good enough with the trigger. Stock sights blew. Curiosly when I used to rent firearms a lot the Glock was the one that ftf and fte.

My vote now is for the XD, even though I own a Ruger P95 and have had extensive range time with an HK. The XD just fits me better, has been flawless and I am accurate with it, I have the XD9 Sub-compact, soon to be joined with a 5"tactical model in 9mm. Solid shooters.

Don't have enough experience with a kahr or an M&P to say. I will say the Kel Tec P3at that I had was the worse piece of junk ever and will never own a kel tec product again even if somebody paid me. Pile o crapola.

MyXD40
September 10, 2007, 09:44 PM
I don't understand the glock.. I wont knock it..but seems like this is the next best thing to sliced bread.

I'm for the XD
Then my S&W 4013TSW

MTMilitiaman
September 10, 2007, 09:51 PM
This thread is dumb (sorry but it is) how is a Glock any better then an H&K or a Sig Pro or a P99? It's not.

Simpler and therefore, mechanically more reliable as well as easier to operate and maintain.

It's simplicity also affords other advantages; it makes the pistol cheaper and easier to manufacture, which is at least in theory passed on to the consumer. It means a just about anyone can detail strip a Glock and repair or replace anything that can go wrong with a Glock, as well as making it easier to accessorize. For this reason, Glock mags cost about $20 while HK mags run a bit over $40, at least last time I checked. And the amount of options and accessories for the Glock is exceeded only by the 1911.

The Glock also has a better metal treatment/finish than either--by far, even HK's "Hostile Environment" finish can't hold a candle to Tennifer. Not in this world anyways--maybe in Tom Clancy's.

The Glock has a much lower bore axis, which makes it easier for most to control. This, when combined with a much shorter trigger reset makes rapid fire with the Glock much easier.

And despite having all of these advantages, Glocks still run several hundred dollars less than HKs, which means you can stock up on mags and ammo, or tinker with your Glock and fix anything you don't like about it and still pay less than an HK.

MyXD40
September 10, 2007, 09:54 PM
:rolleyes:

Silentarmy
September 10, 2007, 09:55 PM
I own
Glock (7)
H&K USP
Walther P22
All are equally Plastic! I would certainly carry any one of them before strapping 8 lbs of stainless to my ass and trying to keep my pants up! I had to snicker at the suspenders in the "show me your carry rig" post!!

MyXD40
September 10, 2007, 10:01 PM
I had to snicker at the suspenders in the "show me your carry rig" post!!

:Dlol

bigghoss
September 10, 2007, 11:02 PM
if there was a best one then there probly wouldn't be so many others.

Silvanus
September 11, 2007, 06:10 AM
It's not really about which one is best. More like which one do YOU prefer.

hoytinak
September 11, 2007, 06:23 AM
HK...the first polymer handgun with the VP70 in 1970

All these votes for Glock just show that most people have no taste. :D

Silvanus
September 11, 2007, 06:32 AM
the first polymer handgun with the VP70 in 1970

And what a great success it was, amazing:D

mes228
September 11, 2007, 06:48 AM
The most advanced, reliable, high capacity, accurate, at the best price, pistol in the world is the Glock 23. I've reached that conclusion after a truck load of pistols. It may take owning hundreds of pistols to reach that conclusion. With the exception of the trigger hindering target accuracy it's pretty much perfect out of the box. Great combat trigger but lousy for ultimate accuracy. Also I really dislike plastic guns and love blue steel and walnut. I have those too - but I carry a Glock 23.

Ocraknife
September 11, 2007, 07:59 AM
The most advanced, reliable, high capacity, accurate, at the best price, pistol in the world is the Glock 23

Why the 23? Most of the other Glock models have the same reliability, advancements and accuracy but come standard with more capacity. The G17for example comes standard with 17 round mags whereas the 23 has 13.

Officer's Match
September 11, 2007, 08:00 AM
+1 re:23

dwatts47
September 11, 2007, 11:11 AM
If there was a best one, there probably wouldn't be so many others.

Well in that case, JMB's original 1911 wasn't the best one either, since there are so many "improvements" for it, right?

Rinspeed
September 11, 2007, 11:31 AM
USP

bigghoss
September 11, 2007, 12:54 PM
dwatts47: thats why they made the 1911A1;)

mes228
September 11, 2007, 02:59 PM
Ocreknife, I carry the Model 23 with Model 22 magazines. You can purchase a small plastic collar that fills the gap between butt and magazine end. This converts the Model 23 to a 16 round .40 cal. pistol in a quite small package. This compares favorably to the Model 19 9mm and has the additional punch of the .40 caliber.

rman43
September 11, 2007, 03:22 PM
Mattel

MyXD40
September 11, 2007, 03:44 PM
I have a glock..it's a great GREAT tool. Perfect for throwing and knocking someone else!!

I just have the slide, too poor to afford the frame lol

And I think everyones "polymer gun is (the) best". Mine is just as good as yours! I think this thread is more like..what polymer gun does everyone seem to own? clearly a lot of peeps own the glock vs. any other brand..

dwatts47
September 11, 2007, 04:36 PM
Myxd40,

If what you posted is true, why the "raise your hand if you hate HK" thread?

What we're looking for, like everyone is every shooters opinion, not a poll of what they own.

Odd Job
September 11, 2007, 04:37 PM
I didn't vote.
I have a polymer pistol, a Vektor CP1. There is no way it gets a vote.
Of the other polymers I have used a Glock and an HK and I don't have a particular leaning towards either one. I did well with them, but there was no love (and you need that for a marriage :p)
So there it is, I need to shoot more polymers before I decide.

quickcanary
September 11, 2007, 04:58 PM
:rolleyes:

Since MTMilitiaman raised some very good points and you could muster only a sarcastic smiley, I'm guessing that means you begrudgingly submit to his presentation of the facts. ;)

Rimrod
September 11, 2007, 05:02 PM
I like them all the same. Which isn't very much.

Black Adder LXX
September 11, 2007, 05:45 PM
I like the M&P. The only Glock I've even remotely enjoyed shooting was the baby 40. Ergonomics are important to me. I haven't had the slightest problem with my M&P 9c and it's very accurate for a compact...

IanS
September 11, 2007, 05:50 PM
Hand fit/comfort, grip angle, the way the trigger feels, quality of fit and finish....all those things that people judge when they examine a handgun at a gunshop means nothing. Also, how a pistol shoots for someone at the range while they're relaxing with their buddies is overrated as well. Not until I take a pistol to a pistol class and have an instructor push me and the gun do I understand what really is "best" or more accurately "better" for me. And actually, as long as its realiable and reasonably accurate I realize the pistol itself isn't really that important. I'm usually the reason why I successfully run a drill or not, not the gun. (I'm talking Defensive pistol not timed competition)

I know that isn't a popular thing to say when most people want to talk about their favorite toys and whats "best" but that's the honest truth.

PPGMD
September 11, 2007, 06:09 PM
Sigh it's nearly all about personal preference.

Anyways this poll will have Glocks in first because there are simply so many out there, even though they are a good gun their marketing is a little over the top and too many people seem to drink their kool aid. Hk and XD will probably be 2nd and 3rd, they are popular, but not as popular as Glock. Followed likely by M&P and Walther.

Sigs aren't known for their polymer guns.

Austin HiPowers
September 11, 2007, 07:02 PM
H&K, without a doubt;)

MyXD40
September 11, 2007, 07:08 PM
dwatts, I didn't post that thread.

DaveShooter
September 11, 2007, 08:14 PM
Please make mine an mod 19 with good hollow-points.
DaveShooter;);););)

DonR101395
September 11, 2007, 08:21 PM
I voted Glock, but whichever one is in your hand at the moment you need it is the best one you can have.

Ocraknife
September 11, 2007, 08:46 PM
Ocreknife, I carry the Model 23 with Model 22 magazines. You can purchase a small plastic collar that fills the gap between butt and magazine end. This converts the Model 23 to a 16 round .40 cal. pistol in a quite small package. This compares favorably to the Model 19 9mm and has the additional punch of the .40 caliber.

I see, I might just have to check one out.

Greg Bell
September 11, 2007, 09:37 PM
HK. They did it first and best.

Greg Bell
September 11, 2007, 10:04 PM
Simpler and therefore, mechanically more reliable as well as easier to operate and maintain.

Not really. Further, dear lord don't ever re-install the slide stop into your Glock with the pins in wrong--the gun will lock back the slide on every shot. With the H&K, the slide stop cannot be installed wrong, and doesn't require tools or anything else to get at it.


It's simplicity also affords other advantages; it makes the pistol cheaper and easier to manufacture, which is at least in theory passed on to the consumer.

That is true, there is economy in scale. Of course, we don't all drive Yaris.



For this reason, Glock mags cost about $20 while HK mags run a bit over $40, at least last time I checked. And the amount of options and accessories for the Glock is exceeded only by the 1911.

That is true. If you need to hang doo-dads off your gun, the 1911 is it. The Glock isn't even a close second. Glock mags are a rip-off at $20, H&K mags are rape at $40.


The Glock also has a better metal treatment/finish than either--by far, even HK's "Hostile Environment" finish can't hold a candle to Tennifer. Not in this world anyways--maybe in Tom Clancy's.

Yes, but this whole "metal treatment" issue is more of a Tom Clancey issue than a real world issue. You can go to my blog where I basically treat my P2000 like crap for six months and it didn't rust or anything else.

http://web.mac.com/timetravelfoundation/iWeb/The%20LAMP/Gun%20Pics_files/P1010036_2.jpg

http://web.mac.com/timetravelfoundation/iWeb/The%20LAMP/Gun%20Pics_files/P1010013.jpg

Oh, and a note on those cheap Glock mags. My P2000 mags went almost 13000 rounds and never failed. Chuck Taylor reported his mags consistently failing at about 5000 rounds (springs). Basically, the P2000 mags, which are steel, made it to about 6500 rounds before I got bored. They never failed.

The Glock has a much lower bore axis, which makes it easier for most to control. This, when combined with a much shorter trigger reset makes rapid fire with the Glock much easier.

There is no doubt that the Glock has an excellent trigger reset. On the other hand, a lightweight safteyless trigger is going to be easy to shoot. Sometimes too easy.

The Bore Axis issue is so overblown it is ridiculous. Bruce Gray has addressed this numerous times.

And despite having all of these advantages, Glocks still run several hundred dollars less than HKs, which means you can stock up on mags and ammo, or tinker with your Glock and fix anything you don't like about it and still pay less than an HK.

Glocks are a great value. Not as good as and XD, but a good value none the less.


However...


The H&K guns consistently represent the cutting edge in combat handgun design. The Glock was basically a rip-off of the best features of the Vp70z (plastic frame, ultra-high capacity). The 3rd gen Glock adopted the light rail of the USP. Now the 21 SF is trying to finally get around to an Ambi-mag release.

Look at the newest HK offering, the P30. It has a totally user adjustable grip. Few people admire the Glocks grip, especially with the 3rd gen finger grooves. It also has an ambi mag release, an Ambi slide release (that you can actually use as a slide release according to the manual :D). This , and a lot of other nice features set the H&K apart. Is is worth $300 or so extra bucks? To me yes, but hey, I own them all. I love Glocks and H&Ks.

PPGMD
September 11, 2007, 10:14 PM
The Glock also has a better metal treatment/finish than either--by far, even HK's "Hostile Environment" finish can't hold a candle to Tennifer. Not in this world anyways--maybe in Tom Clancy's.

Comparing Tennifer/Melonite/Hostile Environment Finish is like comparing gasolines sure there are some minor differences having to do with EPA standards in the US, and licensing rights of an exact formula. But for the most part they are pretty much the exact same process with the exact same results.

Hk (HE), Glocks(Ten), Walther(Ten),
M&P (Mel) and XDs(Mel) will rust, but it's very very rarely from any of the parts treated to a salt bath nitriding treatment. It's generally springs and roll pins that rust.

JohnKSa
September 11, 2007, 11:15 PM
Further, dear lord don't ever re-install the slide stop into your Glock with the pins in wrong--the gun will lock back the slide on every shot. With the H&K, the slide stop cannot be installed wrong, and doesn't require tools or anything else to get at it.In all fairness, Glock recommends that you not disassemble the gun to the point of removing the slide stop unless you have training. The slide stop in the H&K is removed as part of the field strip procedure.Chuck Taylor reported his mags consistently failing at about 5000 rounds (springs).Yup, IMO, the G17 magazines are really 15 or 16 round magazines, not 17. Loading them all the way seems to shorten the spring lifespan.The Glock was basically a rip-off of the best features of the Vp70z (plastic frame, ultra-high capacity).I think that's an overstatement. It bore some similarity, but other than the obvious, it's more different than similar.

All that said, I think the USP is a more refined gun than the Glocks.But for the most part they are pretty much the exact same process with the exact same results.Yes and no. The results depend somewhat on the specific steel alloy the finish is applied to. In addition, the thickness/depth of the treatment can be altered by varying the process.

PPGMD
September 11, 2007, 11:25 PM
Yes and no. The results depend somewhat on the specific steel alloy the finish is applied to. In addition, the thickness/depth of the treatment can be altered by varying the process.

Sure there are differences but in the grand scheme of things they are very minor that shouldn't effect the consumer at all unless they get a bad batch.

denfoote
September 11, 2007, 11:32 PM
http://usera.imagecave.com/denfoote/SW40F.jpg


:eek::cool::eek::cool:

MPanova
September 12, 2007, 05:28 AM
I could not vote because you left off Taurus. :mad:

Ocraknife
September 12, 2007, 07:21 AM
I prefer H&Ks to Glocks and the Khar but I haven't owned any othe polymer gun for comparison. Except the Ruger 22/45 which doesn't count.

jonny wong
September 12, 2007, 04:33 PM
HK

Alnamvet
September 12, 2007, 06:16 PM
Glock

michael t
September 12, 2007, 06:34 PM
Kel Tec, smal,l light ,and lifetime warrenty. Oh and cost what those other guns should cost.

hpg
September 12, 2007, 07:06 PM
Glock for me........hpg

rootbeerlover
September 12, 2007, 07:20 PM
Long time lurker, 1st. post. As a question of best polypistol. Best for what. Pride of ownership, Probably Hk. Very reliable, Glock hands down. Collector value only, Hk Vp70z, Knight's sort of design Colt 2000. Cross an Uzi with a Glock and you get the B&T clone of the Steyr SPP that DSA is bringing in. Big, but if it is at all like the SPP it'll feed everything and have near rifle like accuracy if you use the sling/lanyard strap. There again, best for what purpose?

hottbarrell
September 12, 2007, 07:34 PM
With the exception of the 10 round magazine follower feed problem on the early guns and ONE instance of a reloader that didnt know what he was doing I ve scoured the internet for P99 problems and that's all I could find.My personal 40.cal has to date 2000+rounds and not one ftf fte with every type of ammo (what's on sale mostly)not to mention I consistantly out group a friend of mine "ex military" who has a hkp2000 and knows how to use it,but I always seem to hold a little tighter groups.:D

Greg Bell
September 12, 2007, 07:37 PM
Oh yeah, the P99 is a great pistol. Really, really underrated.

Glockeroo
September 12, 2007, 07:38 PM
Glock is 1st, then any of the other imitators are next.

dwatts47
September 12, 2007, 09:45 PM
+1 to Glockeroo

J. Parker
September 12, 2007, 09:50 PM
The poll is absolutely correct.....Glock is the obvious winner followed by the nice H&K pistols. The others are certainly contenders but alas just pretenders.:)

JohnKSa
September 12, 2007, 11:19 PM
I think what this poll proves is which polymer pistol is most popular. Which is fine with me since I have a hard time with the concept that there could even BE a "best gun".

Best for a specific application, perhaps, but just flat out "best"? That's a tough one...

powder burns
September 12, 2007, 11:49 PM
I think it just illustrates what popular conception is, rather. How often do rap songs cite references to glocks and tec-9's as opposed to sig saurs and mp5's? People still buy Ford trucks all day long. Personally I don't see whats so great about an ergonomically challenged pistol with no external safetys, so I'll cast my vote for the usp with the xd close behind and glock trailing 3rd. This of course is only because nobody mentioned other candidates like the new sig p250 or the products made by taurus or tanfoglio etc.

jmlpa
September 13, 2007, 09:49 AM
I love my M9A1 9mm Steyr.

ronc0011
September 13, 2007, 10:43 AM
http://www.adlinda.com/kimber1.jpg

I don’t have any experience with the other models but the Pistol I do have is the “Kimber Pro Carry Ten II” 45ACP. It is a 1911 type pistol but it holds 13 rnds in the magazine and one in the chamber for a grand total of 14 rnds of 45 ACP. The trigger is clean and crisp, the ramp and slide is stainless and it will print quarter size holes at 12 yards. Actually it probably will do better than that but I can’t hold it that steady. The polymer grip allows for thin walls on the grip thus allowing for the fat magazine and 13 rnds of 45 cal. Because it is built on the 1911 platform it is thinner than a lot of the newer semi autos I see these days. In fact I see a lot of 9mm and even 380s that are fatter than the 1911s. It has the bull barrel so there is no bushing (fewer parts). The trigger reset is very short, probably less than a 1/8 of an inch and it will unload 14 rnds as fast as you can run the trigger.

The balance and the heft of this gun is great and the more I shoot it the more I like shooting it. I say that after having it for close to a year now and shooting it nearly every weekend.

Right now it is the same gun I took out of the box new so needless to say after all this time I have begun to speculate on some tweaks I might have done to it, such as Meprolight sights… actually that’s about the only thing I can think of that I would like to change. It has black sights that are sometimes hard to see. Like for instance against a black target.

Alnamvet
September 13, 2007, 03:06 PM
Glock wins the Tough Guy Challenege.

I knew that already.

MyXD40
September 13, 2007, 03:30 PM
Ronc0011 Nice lookin gun:cool:

quickcanary
September 13, 2007, 04:44 PM
nobody mentioned other candidates like the new sig p250

That's probably because it's new, it's not popular (yet, anyway), and there's just no way to tell if it is the "best" or not.

I agree wholeheartedly with John. I said it early on in this thread and I'll say it again...there is no best pistol. Best for you or me maybe, but it's all subjective.

I think best for the $$ has to go to Glock. I say this because even though they cost more than Taurus and Kel-Tec, I'm almost positive there are less lemons and if something does break you should be able to fix it yourself. HK is nice, but they aren't perfect either and they are IMO overpriced (even though I plan on getting one at some point).

skeeter1
September 13, 2007, 11:09 PM
I voted for the S&W M&P, but in all honestly, it's one of only two polymer-framed guns that I've shot, the other being a Glock. Of the two, I thought the S$W was the better gun.

presidingglock
September 14, 2007, 01:40 AM
Perfection = GLOCK

GalilARM
September 14, 2007, 03:25 PM
I think we all knew how this "poll" was going to turn out before it even started....

Of course Glock gets the most votes because it is the most prolific and most popular. They're great guns for the money, but I think there is better to be had.

Here's my (relatively) unbiased opinion, based on many of these guns that I have shot or owned.....

#1 HK USP: probably second to only Sigs in accuracy, very very reliable, ability to carry cocked and locked, price is getting more and more reasonable

#2 Walther p99: very underrated, pointable and ergonomic, and very accurate. The decocker is a big plus in my opinion too...

#3 SA XD: more ergonomic than the Glock, just as accurate and just as reliable. Only real downside is that its harder to do work on (no parts availability)

#4 Glock: Less ergonomic than the XD, but pretty similar in every other regard. Easy maintenance and repairs, tons of add ons.

#5 SW M&P: Everything about it seems comparable to the XD and Glock but its just not proven yet.....

#6 IMI Baby Eagle: IMO one of the most under appreciated guns around, theyre accurate, reliable, and not too expensive. Its also one of those guns that not too many people have.

Effy
September 14, 2007, 03:37 PM
I went with the M&P. I shot several polymer guns before I decided on a purchase, and the M&P fit the bill as far as ergononmics, accuracy, price, and customer service. Sure it's not proven, but time will take care of that. I have 2500 rounds through my MP9 full size and no issues, so it's proven itself to me so far.

Ciao,
Effy

LUPUS
September 14, 2007, 04:59 PM
I used to own a P99 and now I am going on with a HKP2K.
It is really very hard to make a choice between them.
I finally voted for the HK.
Best.

CritRxDoc
September 16, 2007, 02:30 PM
They are all good weapons, but glocks are my personal choice.

Cremon
September 16, 2007, 02:38 PM
My younger brother owns HK's, and I am very impressed with them. I've shot them before - very accurate handguns. They don't fit my hands all that well, but they fit him like new body parts.

Alaskanmonte
September 16, 2007, 04:51 PM
Springfield XD.

buster55
September 16, 2007, 05:21 PM
All good guns in the poll,Glocks have proven themselves with price,reliability,& great customer service if needed.I certainly would not have a problem owning or trusting any of the guns listed.;)

fwcofficer
September 16, 2007, 09:10 PM
Glock

Redneck_Riot
September 17, 2007, 08:56 PM
HECKLER and KOCH USP! rains supreme in my polymer framed collection
its the most accurate in my hands and never has any problems 3000 rounds and counting

Walther P99 .40
Sig Arms P2009 9mm
Glock 23 .40
FN FNP -40
HK USP .40/ 45acp

Thunderhawk88
September 17, 2007, 09:29 PM
S&W, Ruger, Glock........I have all three and they are great.

P7fanatic
September 17, 2007, 10:37 PM
HK.
But if you don't have the money for an HK, you get a Glock.
So, there are more Glocks out there since they are cheaper.
So, I'm sure it is the Glock that will win the poll.;)

JAXX
September 17, 2007, 11:29 PM
It makes me wonder what if the USP was priced around 550 bucks? Would most of these Glock guys be singing the praises of HK? I know there are a few people on here who have bought a HK then purchased a Glock later due to preference. That's to be expected, no one makes anything that suits everyone. However, IMO I feel that most of the people who by Glocks due so because a HK or a Sig (new) are out of their price range. Then they rant and rave about how good their Glock is when in reality most are comparing them to cheaper guns they had owned before they spent more money for a Glock. I'm not trying to piss the Glock guys off here, this is just my opinion on the matter, so no offense meant. I forked out more money for my USP, and I couldn't be happier with it's performance. If your Glock is working good for you, that's great. Many people here are claiming their weapon is the best, yet they have no experience with any other weapon to compare it to.

MTMilitiaman
September 17, 2007, 11:36 PM
I spent a grand on an HK which performed just well enough to make an expensive paper weight, then spent half as much on a Glock, which turned out to be at least twice the pistol.

If I didn't have problems with screwing someone by selling them a defective handgun, I could have already sold the USP, and the proceeds would have likely went to another Glock.

Having owned an HK, I can honestly say, I'd still buy a Glock if the prices were reversed.

In fact, with the headache my HK has given me, you'd almost have to pay me to take one.

JAXX
September 17, 2007, 11:42 PM
Every brand has lemons. If you'd have experienced a KB with a Glock like some on this forum have, then I'm sure you would feel different about Glocks too. But you have had great experiences with your Glock, as I have had with my HK. I'm sorry that your HK didn't perform well for you.

RB047
September 17, 2007, 11:43 PM
I also agree that the above make great guns. While i am biased toward Glock, I like the M&P also. I think considering the length of time the Glock has been on the market and the number of owners, compared to the rest, this poll is actually pretty close.

MTMilitiaman
September 17, 2007, 11:45 PM
It's not just that I got a lemon. Even if the thing was reliable, it is still just another polymer framed DA/SA pistol with a mediocre trigger and a high bore axis. It isn't worth the money they charge for it.

JAXX
September 17, 2007, 11:50 PM
It's not just that I got a lemon. Even if the thing was reliable, it is still just another polymer framed DA/SA pistol with a mediocre trigger and a high bore axis. It isn't worth the money they charge for it.

When people start to convey their opinion as fact handed down by God, that's when they loose credibility in my opinion:rolleyes: Your opinion is that HKs are overpriced. It probably wouldn't be too hard to find people who see Glocks in the same light;)

MTMilitiaman
September 18, 2007, 01:41 AM
When people start to convey their opinion as fact handed down by God, that's when they loose credibility in my opinion

Don't ask a question then get your panties all bound up when you don't get the answer you were looking for.

You were curious if people would buy the HK instead of the Glock if they were the same price. I for one said "no, not a chance." If you were simply making a statement in the form of a question, and looking for everyone to grin and nod in agreement, you've come to the wrong place.

At any rate, I certainly don't see how stating an opinion, with support, that differs from yours, and sticking with it, is conveying as fact handed down by God. I ain't even religious...

Your opinion is that HKs are overpriced.

I don't see how someone can drop that kind of money into a polymer framed handgun and not feel ripped off with that trigger, but whatever.

The HK should run the same price as a Glock, and you're right, maybe if it was, more people would own them. Alas, they are not, and I think a good many people, including myself, are justified in feeling they overpriced.

dwatts47
September 18, 2007, 02:19 AM
Actaully, GalilArm, I started this poll to see what the owners of multiple brand names acutally prefered and believed in... If I'd wanted something esle I'd have named the poll "which polymer gun do you have?"

I own pistols from 5 of the manufacturers above... in most cases more than one of each manufacturer's gun.

The other guns are, for the most part, stellar in their interpretation of what a polymer gun should be. I say interpretation because, like it or not, Glock set the standard of what a polymer gun needed to be long ago. Other manufacturers then added what they felt like where the things that Glock missed the mark on, hence people that wanted cocked and locked carry bought an HK and viola..."the HK is a better pistol than the glock".

see Where I'm goin here? I never wanted to hate on anyone for disliking the G-lock or liking some other gun. It breaks down to this... the 'best' most copied most modified, most timeless STEEL pistol is what? Yep the 1911.

so to me the "best" most copied, most modifed polymer gun is yet again, the one that really started it all. MHO

thanks all for your votes/posts:)

LUPUS
September 18, 2007, 03:43 AM
I do not want to offend any one but, seeing many many posts that claiming the HKs are overpriced got annoyed me so much.
I have been a SIG shooters for many years and a very dedicated snob of their P series pistols. I had owned five of them at different times for different time frames. The only one stays with me is KG date coded P226. Since its locking block do not fluctuate in the frame when the slide is taken off, since it is cut to exact dimensions it must be. The decocking lever does not touch and chipp the frame, when it is let to go back freely to its initial position, since the recess at the very rear of the lever where it goes through the sear is machined deep enough to keep the distance to prevent it touching to the frame when this part is back to its position in the support plate. The slide works straightly in symmetrical manner during cycling, since the barrel lug works inside the locking block, which locks the barrel when the pistol returns to battery and guides it during the recoil is perfectly and symmetrically cut. You can check out this part by checking the feeding ramp of your SIGs. In most of them, especially the newer ones, you will not see equal amount of metal on the both sides of feeding ramp which means that the barrel hood, lug, feeding ramp are not cut at the same equal distance from the sides in the CNC machine, so to their exact dimensions. Most of the time, such artefacts are tolerated, but these are the reasons of many FTFeed/Extract issues due to the inproper feeding angles and extractor positioning, mostly solved by readopting the extractor. After aproximately 5K rounds, the anodising of the frame rails is rock solid in my belowed P226, while the newer ones I bought, ( all were 9mm and only a P229 had a solid block slide which most afficanados blame the high pressure .40SW with higher slide velocities and block slides with tighter frame fits responsible of the frame rail wear ), chipped sometimes just after 50 rounds! I do not want to mention the just plain cheap phosphate finish on them.
I do not see any people claiming that SIGs are overpriced, since they are not observing such kind of manufacturing artefacts unless they effect the function of the pistol. And also the manufacturers' main excuse for such artefacts are always the same; Hey, they do not effect the function, so do forget about them and continue to pay us high end dollars.
For example, many people may claim you that the fit and finish of the BHPs are better than the CZs, Rugers,etc since they do not see how the surface of the pistol left from the factory; when the baked on laquert finish on BHPs stippled for any gunsmithing procedure, you will observe almost no final metal finishing work is done. I do not talk about the inner finishes and small parts, but if you get a chance to check out a BHP pistol with the exterior finish is stippled, you will see what I mean. But, again many people do not hesitate to pay more bucks to them than CZs,Rugers, mainly because of the mark snobbery.

When it comes to polymers, who molds the frame which is the hardest to tell it is a plastic from the distance; I think the underrated SIGPro gets the edge here.
When you check the junction points of the two halves of the frame, which one offers the cleanest molding and seaming without any plastic artefacts left on it, HKs,SIGPros and then P99s are the winners I suppose.I think Glocks are the only polymer framed pistols that their recoil spring assembly can be seen from the outside when the pistol in full assembly condition.
When you check the parts inside the frame and slide, which one has the least amount of stamped parts which are so easy and cheap to manufacture, HKs and SIGPros again takes the edge.
The amount of the steel, its molding and adopting style into the polymer frames, the amount and the style of the machine cuts on the slide resulting more labor time on the CNC machines are also some of the other cost determining factors. Also another cost effecting factor is the manufacturer's phylosophy of QC, if it is not oriented around letting parts out with small artefacts, supposed that they will not effect the function, it will definetely increase their cost.
Any manufacturer may let some substandard parts from their factory, but the amount of them and their approach to this subject determines their quality.

People always claim that the HKs are overpriced for just another plastic piece, while accepting the Glocks reasonablely priced, even when compared to metal framed pistols with lesser amount of stamped small parts and all around counters needing much more CNC operations such as CZs, Rugers,etc. HKs are not the pistols paid just for the snobbery and cool factor, especially when compared with other ones that are paid in that way. They carry much more value than these factors, especially when I check the small details I mentioned about on different brands of pistols.
God is in details, but also the devil is hidden in details.

I admit that Mr.Gaston and his staff are really genious people for inventing a really easy and cheap to manufacture, very reliable service pistol, and achieve to market it with the prices that taken by most people as reasonable. But not the best one that defines the perfection.Just my 0.02$.
Regards.

JAXX
September 18, 2007, 11:55 AM
It's not just that I got a lemon. Even if the thing was reliable, it is still just another polymer framed DA/SA pistol with a mediocre trigger and a high bore axis. It isn't worth the money they charge for it.

Don't ask a question then get your panties all bound up when you don't get the answer you were looking for.

You were curious if people would buy the HK instead of the Glock if they were the same price. I for one said "no, not a chance." If you were simply making a statement in the form of a question, and looking for everyone to grin and nod in agreement, you've come to the wrong place.

At any rate, I certainly don't see how stating an opinion, with support, that differs from yours, and sticking with it, is conveying as fact handed down by God. I ain't even religious...

MT, when you make a statement like the one above, even if you have the experience with 1 pistol to back it up, it's still just your opinion. When you say it isn't worth the money they charge for it, that is still just an opinion of someone who obviously is pissed off about their experience with HK. That's all fine and dandy. Wether or not you think I was just "looking for everyone to grin and nod in agreement" really doesn't matter to me. Like I said earlier, what gets under my skin is when people make statements from opinion and expect us to take them as facts. When I posed the question about pricing differences between the two guns, if you think I was waiting on pins and needles for you to give me the answer "I wanted" then you are sadly mistaken. At this point I already knew where you stood on HK and that is your opinion, that's fine. My "panties" are not in a "bunch" and frankly I tried to keep the conversation a little more civil than that. Obviously that was a mistake. More often than not, it seems, that you cannot disagree with a Glock guy without them getting all defensive and start mudslinging. That is unfortunate in my opinion.

IN MY OPINION, HKs are some of the best built combat weapons in the world. Look at any tactical unit worldwide. Sure, they don't all use HK pistols, but there is some type of HK weapon in their stable. That says alot to me about quality and dependablity. I see that quality with the USP series as well. Frankly, you cannot get that type of quality, dependabilty and reputation without paying a little bit for it. That is my opinion, backed up with facts.

MTMilitiaman
September 18, 2007, 01:26 PM
More often than not, it seems, that you cannot disagree with a Glock guy without them getting all defensive and start mudslinging. That is unfortunate in my opinion.

Ditto for the HK snobs ;)

What you pay for in an HK is the added complexity of the design, and the prestige that is supposed to come with the brand. The complexity of the design does next to nothing for the end user and only serves to increase the number of parts that can fail or break, and the prestige quickly evaporates as soon as this happens, if not before.

So while it is just my opinion, it is an opinion shared by a lot of people. There are better options available for less money than the USP. Even if one is looking for a DA/SA pistol, the SIG Pro offers better ergonomics than the USP, its trigger certainly isn't any worse, and it costs considerably less.

Again, just my opinion, but you get a lot more for the money when you buy a Glock. In this case, less is more. The Glock is simpler to operate and to maintain. The Glock has a lower bore axis and while its trigger will never compare to a tuned 1911 trigger, it is consistent, light enough to be efficient, and boasts an incredibly short reset. Parts, mags, holsters, and accessories are everywhere, and priced fairly enough that the average person can afford. Forty-bucks for an HK mag is ridiculous. People can swallow twenty bucks for a Glock mag.

My opinion? Yes. But obviously, I am not alone.

Alnamvet
September 18, 2007, 02:16 PM
...since the opinion makers have voted Glock top dog, then I am to assume it goes beyond opinion...could it be Glock's are the best?:)

JAXX
September 18, 2007, 03:51 PM
At this point, arguing my opinion any more is futile. Glock guys cannot be told that there is any pistol out there is better than the Glock they own. That's fine, everyone should be happy with their purchase. You're happy with your Glock, I'm happy with my HK. I'll leave it at that and call it a day. Happy and safe shooting to all:)

quickcanary
September 18, 2007, 06:52 PM
JAXX, have you personally owned a Glock? Do not assume that the Kool-Aid flows freely into my mouth; I just want to know this before I respond to a post you made above. :)

JAXX
September 18, 2007, 07:13 PM
No, I have never owned a Glock. I spent some time with one however before I moved out of California. I was actually contemplating the purchase of a Glock so I spent some time with a newer rental with multiple range sessions. It just did not suit me well. The grip angle was very uncomfortable for me. I'm not taking anything away from Glock, they seem to be great guns, especially for the price. They're just not for me. My USP suits my needs better and is far more comfortable to me.

quickcanary
September 18, 2007, 07:50 PM
OK, thank you. I gathered by reading your posts that you did not, but just wanted to make sure before I ass-umed.

I think it's unfair to some Glock owners to assume that they bought their weapon simply because HK is out of their price range. I'm sure that's true in some cases, but personally speaking, I bought my Glock because it gave me what I was looking for in a pistol for a lot less money than an HK. When I say HK I am specifically referring to the USP, as at the time I wasn't very knowledgeable and didn't know very much about the P2000. I make a pretty good living and while I could certainly make the conscious decision to buy an HK, I went with the Glock over the USP because I felt it was a much better value.

I've had the opportunity to put several mags through a USP full size and it was a fine machine to be sure. There were no malfunctions during its operation. But it didn't leave me with the feeling that "Yes, this gun is worth paying twice what a Glock would cost." The Glock offers many of the same characteristics of the HK -- reliability, durability, ease of maintenance, and the ability to digest just about any ammo without complaint (among other things). Additionally, it offered some advantages as well. The Glock was smaller, had a lower bore axis which for me meant less muzzle flip, was simpler in design and aftermarket & replacement parts are easy to find and comparatively inexpensive.

That's not to say the HK doesn't hold any advantages to the Glock, but after carefully considering what I needed and wanted in a pistol, the Glock offered a lot of pluses with very few minuses. I also happen to be one of those that doesn't have an issue with the grip angle, even after shooting several 1911s (which I thought would have me spoiled for sure). While they do shoot great and point great, they haven't managed to make me roll my eyes in disgust at Glocks.

I do plan on purchasing an HK. The P2000 definitely has my attention and I am eagerly waiting for reports on the HK45. But I can just about promise you that when I do buy one, I won't pay full price for it, simply out of principle. It's not hard to find lightly used P2000s and USPs in the $600-$700 range, which I consider reasonable. But unless something drastic happens I will not pay upwards of $800-$900 for one. It is my opinion that they are priced too highly for what they deliver when there are other guns that would make me just as happy for less moolah, which means more practice time at the range (or more guns!). The Elite/Expert series may be another story, as I have no experience with those or any real desire to own one.

MTMMan was obviously soured by his experience but I believe he had some good points. As did you. And as much as I love my Glock, I don't believe in Glock Perfection because I don't think any gun is perfect. But I also don't think HK's "No Compromise" slogan is appropriate for the same reason. Especially in the case of the USP, where several compromises have already been named. You could mention ANY gun and I guarantee people could come up with suggestions that would improve it.

Sorry for the long read, but I wanted to explain *my* opinion although it may very well differ from yours. But such is the spice of life. :) I'm not here to bash everything HK makes or to say that everyone must own a Glock; I just wanted to provide another viewpoint on the matter.

JAXX
September 18, 2007, 08:14 PM
I appreciate your input QC and respect your opinion.

GW45NUT
September 18, 2007, 10:23 PM
H&K is by far the most reliable and best of the plastic guns I have owned. I have somewhere between 12-15K rounds through it without a single stoppage. Mine is the USP45C. I have owned 11 Glocks covering the entire spectrum of calibers and all have failed at one time or another. This is not meant as a knock against Glock, I have had some real great shooters and had lots of fun shooting them. I will likely own more too. But the H&K gets my vote as the best because of it's reliability. It is also very accurate.

Kermit
September 19, 2007, 02:27 PM
I don't know if I lean more towards perfection of not compromising, but I really like my Glock & my USPs. If I had to choose, I'd probably go w/ my USP as the better / best polygun :D

Silvanus
September 19, 2007, 02:37 PM
So you had 11 unreliable Glocks GW45NUT? You must be the unluckiest person I've ever heard of:eek:

Glk17
September 19, 2007, 07:40 PM
The best polymer pistol is reliable, durable, easy to work on, excellent parts supply and has a proven track record. Yeah......a Glock.:cool:

Thunderhawk88
September 19, 2007, 08:31 PM
The best Polymer Pistol is the one that has worked best for you, not someone else, regardless of name, cost, size, color, snob appeal, etc.

GW45NUT
September 19, 2007, 11:01 PM
Silvanus,

I was not implying my Glocks were bad. In my eyes a couple of stoppages every now and then do not make a weapon junk. There is usually a reason behind a stoppage. Without getting into a 900 word essay about this, the most common problems that caused failures in my Glocks were spring related and easy fixes. One Glock 30 I owned broke 4X and was finally exchanged at my request by Glock for a brand new G32. This was the most extreme case. Yes, my USP45C has never failed. This one is a real keeper. One day though, something will finally break on it. It is the nature of the beast. When that happens I will fix it and continue shooting the heck out of it. Though I must confess that lately my DW PM7 has been seeing more range time. Man, a nice running 1911 is a blast to shoot!:)

The Body Bagger
September 20, 2007, 03:08 AM
http://i23.servimg.com/u/f23/11/50/35/28/glock10.jpg

swman
September 20, 2007, 06:34 AM
Once you shoot an M&P you realize the rest aren't as good, especially if you use the correct palm swell. As much as I like to shoot the G17&G22, the M&P wins hands down.:)

Rasputin
October 5, 2007, 09:54 PM
Glock Duh!:D i own a G17 and my uncle has a g22 that he has put 20,000+ rounds through without one problem. but if he were here he'd say h&k usp 40, and my dad would say xd9... me G17 like i voted Lol

Surefire_U2
October 5, 2007, 10:52 PM
I have more Glocks than any other polymer pistol.

However...

My favorite is....


XD45

If Springfield made parts easier to get, I'd probably switch completely over to the XD. The XD45 for me is significantly more ergonomic than Glocks, and has features I prefer (like standard metal sites).

Because Springfield isn't open about their spare parts, I probably won't get another even though I prefer them by far over Glock or any other polymer pistol.

TNFrank
October 6, 2007, 08:52 AM
Another vote for Ruger. My KP-95 is built like a tank and as reliable as any gun I've ever owned.

mballai
October 6, 2007, 09:05 PM
I've owned and shot a whole variety of polymer guns, but the Glock gets my vote as the most well-supported gun in 9mm. I'd go with an HK if I wanted a combat gun in 40S&W. I'm still not entirely satisfied with the offerings in 45 ACP.

NWCP
October 7, 2007, 02:36 AM
Glocks don't fit my hand and I'm not fond of the fire control system. I prefer HK and Kahr, but then I own several and shoot them well.

MyXD40
October 7, 2007, 02:41 AM
MY GUN IS THE BEST. Daisy powerline black/chrome bb gun.

http://b9.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/01201/98/72/1201552789_l.jpg

even11
October 7, 2007, 02:49 AM
The best Polymer Pistol is the one that has worked best for you, not someone else, regardless of name, cost, size, color, snob appeal, etc.

+1 Perfectly stated

XD got my vote btw...

-Dane

TheNatureBoy
October 7, 2007, 07:34 AM
Best hard plactic gun? Depends on my most recent purchase. In this case a XD-45.

_________________________

Nakanokalronin
October 7, 2007, 02:30 PM
XD of course. The Glock is always ahead because its been out longer which in turn has been distributed more. XD is safer, just as reliable and have seen tourture tests equal to Glock only with 10,000 more rounds. :p

Oh yea, and the XD has a better grip angle than the Glock and feels like a single action 1911 when fired as it just releases the striker. :D

Glock sounds like Block.:p

ooreach
October 7, 2007, 02:42 PM
taurus, love the little guy

HDTVSELLER
October 7, 2007, 02:59 PM
xd all the way

Rasputin
October 7, 2007, 04:18 PM
Nakanokalronin

XD of course. The Glock is always ahead because its been out longer which in turn has been distributed more. XD is safer, just as reliable and have seen torture tests equal to Glock only with 10,000 more rounds.

maybe you should read this before assuming that glock hasnt been tested as extensively.

One of the more recent thorough tests was performed by the FBI, which was very well documented in the 1998 Autopistol magazine (Harris Publications) and the 1998 Glock Annual magazine. Believe me, if there was an out-of-battery problem and/or Glock design flaw during the 120,000 round torture test, the FBI would not have declared the Glock models 22 & 23 the overwhelming winners.


150k plus 15k w/o cleaning below on G21

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

100k test below G17

http://membres.lycos.fr/shooter/glock/glock4.html

Chui
October 7, 2007, 08:12 PM
The M&P design is a more modern (and better) design than that of Glock at this point of the pistols' history. Glock has sat on large profits, truncating previous designs (subcompacts) and developing pistols for odd calibers and marketing their own caliber as opposed to doing what S&W and H&K have done (namely, IMPROVE the basic design and continue to march forward):


Ambidextrous slide catch mechanisms
Mutiple stock geometries with easy changing


I also like the material selection of the M&P (Zytel over Nylon) with steel reinforcements strategically placed. I also like the stainless steel slide, barrel and stainless steel guide rod and chrome silicon recoil spring. To be honest I'd like to have polygonal rifling, as it should be cheaper in the long run to produce (hammer forge initial costs are about $850,000 or more since the dollar is nosediving...)

The M&P trigger/sear combo comes out as a single unit which as an engineer I also like. It's also easy to do any trigger work if that suits your fancy.

The pistol has steel magaxzines. Why is this important? Because steel alloys are stronger than polymer for equal volume which means a magazine of adequate strength will be thinnner with the steel alloy as opposed to the polymer. I'd prefer stainless as carbon steel will rust, but take a good look into the inner steel lining of Glock mags - they tend to rust so take care of them every now and then. BOESHIELD works wonders.

All of these add up to a more ergonomic design which, for most persons, will shoot better for them. I also find there is somehow less FELT or PERCEIVED recoil which assists in faster shot to shot split times WITH better grouping on average.

Things I wish the M&P had:

Much more aggressive checkering. Being a Springfield TRP guy I like sharp 20 lpi for a carry gun. Your mileage (and skin) may vary. :D

That's my opinion based on sound engineering background (20 years) which includes materials, materials processing, design and testing and a lot of experience with HK, Glock, Sig, M&P, Type 1911s pistols.

predecessor
October 9, 2007, 10:53 AM
My vote was for "other" - in this case, the FN Herstal Five-seveN - Polymer encased slide even!

1man
October 9, 2007, 07:28 PM
HK

cohoskip
October 10, 2007, 05:40 PM
I love my XD .45 - shoots great & straight...

roman3
October 10, 2007, 06:16 PM
Ummm Glock but where was the choice for the Beretta PX4 :confused:

CritRxDoc
October 10, 2007, 07:06 PM
No question, Glock:D

281 Quad Cam
October 11, 2007, 12:59 AM
I came on here wondering if I should post about my newest dilemma, and this thread already seems to have alot of going back and forth between Glock and USP.

Yesterday I got a new 9mm USP, and it represents a bit of a dilemma because I already own a Glock 19. I was very excited about the new USP and was sure I was going to be selling the Glock off, but once I got the beautiful H&K home, it started to get uglier.

It's big. For the same 15 rounds its very big. For the same (within 1mm) sight radius it's big. For the same barrel length (within 2 or 3mm I estimate) its big. Yes it's a full size and the 19 is a compact, but shouldn't I be getting barrel length, capacity OR sight radius in trade?

The USP's grip feels no less like a 2x4 than the Glock's, and indeed their thickness is nearly the same.

It's thin plastic trigger bends when pulled in D/A mode. Everyone assures me that it will not break, but it seems like an odd choice for them to have made it so thin and flexible.

The H&K's safety is capable of being switched on whilst in D/A mode. Many guns like the CZ-75 prevent this. This seems to remove the ability to carry D/A safety off to me, because it can become engaged in the holster during a day of activity. So for all intents and purposes, this gun cannot be carried D/A like the Sig, CZ, XD, Walther, or Glock all of whom leave you absolutely sure your gun is D/A safety off. The safety can become engaged without your intent, and to avoid a mixup, should either be used, or at least anticipated.

The Glock goes bang if the trigger is pulled. Call that a negative if you want, but I don't have children and the trigger should produce the same result every time it is loaded and pulled.

This might be more of a combat oriented nit-pick, but the pistol doesn't seem to be able to be dismantled easily or at all in the dark. It requires the visual cue of lining up the slide stop pin, both to remove and insert it, also giving you one more loose part to keep track of. In combat, which I admit me and my pistol will never see, light is at a premium, be it in the woods or a powerless city.

The Glock requires no visual reference and leaves you no extra pins or parts. Reassembly is placing the slide on the frame and racking it, done.

I'm not buying Glock perfection, nor H&K's no compromise... I don't think anything I've listed has been from their ad campaign or folk lore.

All that said I may still keep the H&K because, it looks nicer and supposedly it shoots much better. I think I'll be doing a lot more casual shooting than using it for combat.

quickcanary
October 11, 2007, 08:02 AM
The USP's grip feels no less like a 2x4 than the Glock's, and indeed their thickness is nearly the same.

I'm glad someone else noticed this. The USP is indeed large and the grip feels akin to holding a brick. Yet somehow when people talk about holding 2x4s or bricks, they always bring Glock. I guess that's because more people have been able to hold a Glock, or that to say anything negative about HK is forbidden.

The P2000s ergonomics seem to be superior to the USP, which isn't just a brick -- it's a very expensive brick. If I'm going to pay for a reliable plastic brick, I'd rather shell out $500 than $800 so my money goes to Glock. At least the G brick is more reasonable in size. :)

And I wouldn't put much stock into the USP being a much better shooter. I guess some people have to believe that in order to avoid buyer's remorse due to paying so much, though (not talking about you specifically, 281). Sure, they're accurate for many people, but the same thing can be said about Glocks, XDs, M&Ps, etc. :confused:

swman
October 11, 2007, 11:54 AM
You've got to be kidding me! Try an M&P and you'll forget about that other gun from the Land of Arnold.:)

demondeacon
October 11, 2007, 12:00 PM
My vote is for the Glock. I have owned three and never had a problem from any of them.

I owned a Heckler and Koch USP Compact in .40 S&W. Notice I said "owned" - past tense. I was very disappointed in that weapon - especially considering that they sell for a premium price. My Glock 23 was more comfortable, easier to shoot, more accurate, and easier to break down and clean. The USP Compact also had a very sharp recoil. I had to buy a grip sleeve to make it somewhat more comfortable to handle. Another negative - according to their website, H&K would not endorse changing the barrel to a .357 SIG. You will pay more money for factory replacement magazines too.

quickcanary
October 11, 2007, 12:53 PM
You've got to be kidding me! Try an M&P and you'll forget about that other gun from the Land of Arnold.

That's a negative, captain! :) I've fired the M&P 9mm full size. While there's no denying it was a nice pistol and felt great, I certainly haven't forgotten about my Glock 19, and actually prefer it. They've each got their pluses and minuses, of course. But in my case, the Glock had fewer negatives.

evan1293
October 11, 2007, 01:13 PM
That's a negative, captain! I've fired the M&P 9mm full size. While there's no denying it was a nice pistol and felt great, I certainly haven't forgotten about my Glock 19, and actually prefer it. They've each got their pluses and minuses, of course. But in my case, the Glock had fewer negatives.

Just wondering...what exactly were the negatives you found with the M&P? I love the glocks but after handling an m&p .45 today I was considering picking one up.

quickcanary
October 11, 2007, 01:44 PM
I really wasn't a fan of the hinged trigger. Supposedly the trigger smooths out after several hundred rounds, but what I didn't really care for was the actual design. I might have gotten used to it after several hundred rounds, but the trigger design is obviously different than that of a Glock, XD, Sig, 1911, and a number of different pistols. This obviously doesn't bother everyone, as a lot of people love the M&P. I just found that I prefer a more standard trigger design.

Then, after visiting the forums more, I started reading the complaints of the mag drop issue. Supposedly 1 in 5 M&Ps were affected, but Smith is trying to make it right for the owners and I honestly don't think I've read one report of this happening to the M&P 45 (that's not to say that it hasn't; only that I haven't heard of it). So it may be a non-issue on the newer runs.

On the plus side, the pistol certainly feels comfortable to hold and the sights are better than the regular Glock sights. I also like S&W's policy of paying shipping both ways if the gun needs to be shipped back to them for repair. When Bud's was running the M&Ps for $439 delivered, I strongly considered buying one. The fact that S&W were giving away 2 free mags and a range bag with purchase didn't hurt, either!

evan1293
October 11, 2007, 03:11 PM
You know, now that you mention it, the hinged trigger did look a little flimsy. I suppose if the lower half of the trigger took a hit, it could snap it off. What specifically was the mag drop issue? Was it that the mags would get hung up in the well / mag release?

cohoskip
October 11, 2007, 03:42 PM
Tactical XD45 w/5"bbl

hknut
October 13, 2007, 07:26 AM
Lets go with the Original Polymer hand gun HK a good 10+ years before the Block!

dbsoundguy
October 13, 2007, 07:57 AM
Who's polymer gun is best?

HOLY SMOKE BATMAN...:cool:

did not know there are so many now...
been away from guns to long i think.....

Hmmmmmmm...;)could be the best one is the one that..YOU.. have or are going to have:D

Elliot
October 13, 2007, 11:38 PM
I voted for Glock because, because I totally trust them. I have not had any experience with other polymer weapons so my opinion is not worth much.

JAXX
October 15, 2007, 06:44 PM
The H&K's safety is capable of being switched on whilst in D/A mode. Many guns like the CZ-75 prevent this. This seems to remove the ability to carry D/A safety off to me, because it can become engaged in the holster during a day of activity. So for all intents and purposes, this gun cannot be carried D/A like the Sig, CZ, XD, Walther, or Glock all of whom leave you absolutely sure your gun is D/A safety off. The safety can become engaged without your intent, and to avoid a mixup, should either be used, or at least anticipated.


That's like saying that because the weapons you mentioned don't have a safety, they cannot be safely carried. I can say from experience, that while carrying my compact USP .40, the safety/decocker has never moved from the position I want it in while in my holster and it is my CCW. If you make the decision to carry safety off, in DA mode, there is no reason that the lever should move unless you are unfamiliar with your weapon. That means you need more practice with said weapon. That level of unfamiliarity with a weapon should not be the reason to bad mouth it. It's all about range time with whatever weapon you choose. I have the utmost confidence that my HK will perform flawlessly if an when I should need it.

281 Quad Cam
October 15, 2007, 09:07 PM
If you make the decision to carry safety off, in DA mode, there is no reason that the lever should move unless you are unfamiliar with your weapon. That means you need more practice with said weapon. That level of unfamiliarity with a weapon should not be the reason to bad mouth it. It's all about range time with whatever weapon you choose. I have the utmost confidence that my HK will perform flawlessly if an when I should need it.

JAXX, I implied that the safety could possibly be moved by sitting against it, shifting your weight around on it, things of that nature whilst it is still in the holster. It has absolutely nothing at all to do, in any way, with unfamiliarity with the weapon, practice with it, or increased range time with it.

I did not, however say that it WOULD move, just that it is possible.

JAXX
October 15, 2007, 09:24 PM
JAXX, I implied that the safety could possibly be moved by sitting against it, shifting your weight around on it, things of that nature whilst it is still in the holster. It has absolutely nothing at all to do, in any way, with unfamiliarity with the weapon, practice with it, or increased range time with it.


With the high quality holsters on the market today, being designed for specific weapons, I really don't see how the lever could possibly move while being holstered. The amount of travel neccessary would be practically impossible unless there are people out there who buy 700 dollar weapons and stick them in 15 dollar holsters. Maybe there are, but I have yet to hear of that happening to anyone.

281 Quad Cam
October 15, 2007, 10:29 PM
With the high quality holsters on the market today, being designed for specific weapons, I really don't see how the lever could possibly move while being holstered. The amount of travel neccessary would be practically impossible unless there are people out there who buy 700 dollar weapons and stick them in 15 dollar holsters. Maybe there are, but I have yet to hear of that happening to anyone.

Well Milt Sparks would be the first place I check, so if a quality holster can keep it under wraps than........... Well....... Thats good enough for me, I suppose. Beretta's still have this problem though! :D (whole new can of worms)

cdouglas40
October 15, 2007, 10:52 PM
Right now I own two xd45s. I bought the xdgap first (I know I should have stuck with the acp). Liked the gun so much I recently picked up the acp. Now I don't put any quality gun down. I have friends that love the Glock and well they work in law enforcement so I would have to say that Glock makes a great weapon. However, right out the box I got 1" and 1.5 groups at 7 yrds with my xd45 acp. So I'm sticking with Springfield.

But I guess it comes down to what you can afford and the feel of the gun. I like the way my springfields feel in my hand. They are easily to shoot and easy to maintain. My shooting buddy won't have any gun without a hammer. But he also got 1.5" groups with my acp. So go figure.

Quail Fat
October 15, 2007, 11:19 PM
http://www.defensereview.com/stories/hk/HK45-StillLife.jpg

dwatts47
October 16, 2007, 12:44 AM
I voted for Glock because, because I totally trust them

+1 :)

Chui
October 16, 2007, 10:38 PM
Everyone should go handle an M&P and the new H&K P30. If the H&K were made here it could be perhaps $200 cheaper and we'd see ze Austrians change their ways since S&W is now eating Glock's lunch in the LE acquisitions. How long will that last? I dunno. An M&P45 the exact same size as the M&P9/40 would "seal the deal" with non-LE persons as Glock has refused to produce such a pistol. Oh, well.

dwatts47
October 16, 2007, 10:45 PM
An M&P45 the exact same size as the M&P9/40 would "seal the deal" with non-LE persons as Glock has refused to produce such a pistol. Oh, well.


Gaston does do things his own way...

still not buyin' an M&P though. :D

Rasputin
October 17, 2007, 07:27 PM
Glock = Best:cool:

Lets keep this Thread Kicking

bulldawg042
October 17, 2007, 07:34 PM
Anyone know of a range anywhere in the Atlanta area that has a good selection of polymers??? A few friends and myself are going to the range to shoot this weekend and one is buying a gun immediately after and another may do so as well. My experiences with 3 of the ranges in the area would be that the only polymer they have is the Glock and maybe a XD. I'd like to find a range that has a H&K USP, Springfield XD, and S&W M&P to compare for them, not to mention for me to decide on a future pistol. I currently own a G17 and S&W 1911 Doug Koenig edition and plan on buying a S&W .38 Special this weekend.

JessR45
October 17, 2007, 11:46 PM
Glock is still the one for me. I've just about run the gamut of polymer pistols out there, including HK USP,P2000,P2000SK, Kahr PM9, XD-9, 40SC and 45, S&W M&P 9 and 40C, even a CZ TT and I've come full circle and back to Glock. I never realized Glock always had what I needed for a fighting pistol; no more and no less, until I tried other brands. Believe me, I've tried to get away from Glock.... but the more I try the more I come back to it. I guess I've been assimilated :)

Thanks,
Jess

Elliot
October 19, 2007, 12:59 AM
I have owned two Colt combat commanders. One was a series 70, the other was a series 80 enhanced model. I got real tired of tweaking them so that they would feed hollow points. I never did get either one of them to work consistently. I owned a Sig P220, nice weapon. That thing even jammed on me. FTF and FTE. The mags were way over priced also. I always hated Glocks, the dang trigger felt horrible after shooting my Colts. The polymer frame felt cheap also. I went to the range with a buddy of mine. He was shooting a G27 using WWB ammo. I was shooting the Colt and the Sig using WWB and some high dollar hollow points. Both of my pistols experienced FTE and FTF problems. His silly little G27 with the WWB ammo just kept going bang, bang, bang. He let me shoot his G27, and that’s all it took. I sold the Colt and the Sig and bought a G27 and a G23. I have never looked back. My Glocks don’t let me down and I don’t have to baby them. I don’t have to tweak them. I don’t have to polish the ramp in order to use hollow points. I don’t have to buy $35 magazines. I feed them the ammo that’s on sale, and never have problems. The Glocks are also very forgiving if I don't clean them as often as I should. I buy brand new Glock factory hi-cap magazines for $20 and they work every time. I don’t have to tune or polish the magazine feed lips either.

Elliot
October 19, 2007, 01:17 AM
I have a friend who owns a Glock in 45 caliber. He prides himself in the fact that he has never cleaned it. The slide is so filthy, you can write your name in the scum. The inside looks like someone poured a handful of fireplace residue into it. It shot just fine, never jammed once while we were at the range. Are there other weapons which perform this reliably? I am sure there are many. The difference is, I have seen Glocks perform. I'll stick with Glock, and vote for them every time. You gotta go, with what ya know.:o