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omega8omega
September 6, 2007, 09:56 PM
Well...
I did it.
She was made between 1914 and 1918, still works perfectly.
Just bought for her new leather dress and wooden "overall"


http://www.czgrips.us/images/Broomhandle%20ls%201.jpg

http://www.czgrips.us/images/Broomhandle%20rs%201.jpg

The question is - refinish or not :\

w_houle
September 6, 2007, 10:01 PM
Not... definantly not! I love it! How many lands/ grooves down the barrel? Don't use .30 Tokarev

MosinM38
September 6, 2007, 10:34 PM
Nice gun ;)


I love those Broomhandles. But ;) a little pricey..
I ended up getting a Charter Arms Explorer 2...

One question.... Did you get it because you like the looks of it and the nostalgia??? I think the Broomhandle (The look of the mag in front of the trigger) is a beautiful gun.... Dad says I am nuts.

Wildalaska
September 6, 2007, 10:50 PM
If it is all matching DO NOT refinish

Don't use Tok ammo!!! Fiocchi is the only Broomie ammo you should use unless you can dig up the older Remington stuff at a show,

Inspect the bolt stop carefully for fractures and make sure you change ALL springs before extensive shooting. Get the Wolf spring kit. Be carefull to reassemble rocker correctly after replacing hammer spring or you will have a major problem.

I may have some strippers around I can send ya for postage, call me

I love Broomies. You need a Pith Helmet :)

WildfungunsAlaska TM

Mike Irwin
September 7, 2007, 12:13 AM
I love Broomies, but I won't shoot them anymore.

I've seen one too many fractured bolts, and that has killed my comfort level.

I've never heard of one completely shedding the bolt back at a shooter, but I really don't want to be the first to experience that.

Yellowfin
September 7, 2007, 12:24 AM
If you need a part like a bolt go to a machinist's shop and have one made. It can't be too expensive I wouldn't think. By the way, how much did you pay?

Manedwolf
September 7, 2007, 12:57 AM
I've seen one too many fractured bolts, and that has killed my comfort level.

I've never heard of one completely shedding the bolt back at a shooter, but I really don't want to be the first to experience that.

In most cases I've heard of that, it was either one of the Chinese copies, or someone was a moron and used Tokarev 7.62x25 because it was cheaper, which is about as foolish as putting .45 LC +P Buffalo Bore in an original Colt SAA.

Yes, it will fit, yes, it might work once or twice, yes, it will eventually blow up the gun.

Not saying it can't happen otherwise, but most cases I've heard of were due to the wrong ammo, or it being the Chinese clone of the gun.

Wildalaska
September 7, 2007, 01:03 AM
It can't be too expensive I wouldn't think.

One off Broomie bolt, unheatreated? By a COMPETANT machinist?

$1,000 minimum.

Wildyouatleast6toolchangesAlaska

MosinM38
September 7, 2007, 08:15 AM
If anyone gets Jerrys Sports Center Retailer magazine.

In the last 2007 Fall Hunting catalog there is a company that is selling 7.63 Mauser ammo. It is on the same page as the Savage Rifle's...(Sorry. Don't have the catalog here.)... just a thought leastways.

P.S> They also have 7.5 french, 7.5 Swiss, 6.5 Carcano and 7.65 Argentine.

grymster2007
September 7, 2007, 09:51 AM
One off Broomie bolt, unheatreated? By a COMPETANT machinist?

$1,000 minimum.

Back when I was a COMPETANT machinist, $1,000 would probably have been a good start.... now I think I would have to charge more.:)

omega8omega
September 7, 2007, 09:51 AM
Thank you for responses.
I like these guns as they are a very important piece of firearms history and russian civil war.
All serial numbers, except one on inside of mag well are matching (even on grips), the bore is perfect. The only spot with pitting is on the left side of the gun, as shown on the picture, the rest is fine.
I made 3 shots of S&B ammo at IPSC target and all shots were in A zone from 25 yards. So it is a shooter, but I am not sure that I will shoot it a lot. I may buy another one, Bolo perhaps, for shooting.
I ordered and received yesterday wooden stock/holster with leather harness.
It is repro but I just had to have it.
Now I want to get spare bolt stop and some clips, so Alaska I will call you soon.

zeroskillz
September 7, 2007, 11:10 AM
What can I say....
Sweeeeeeeet.

Manedwolf
September 7, 2007, 11:17 AM
I made 3 shots of S&B ammo at IPSC target and all shots were in A zone from 25 yards.

S&B makes Mauser pistol ammo? I didn't think they did?

Actually, I just checked...they don't.

If it's their 7.62x25, DO NOT USE THAT IN A MAUSER! That's meant for a Tokarev. You'll blow up the gun in your face, it's WAY too hot. :eek:

omega8omega
September 7, 2007, 11:23 AM
S&B makes Mauser pistol ammo?

7.62x25 - dimensions are practically the same as original round, velocity is very close, not sure about pressure, so I am not shooting till will learn more about this round

Manedwolf
September 7, 2007, 11:24 AM
NO! It's not the same!

DO NOT USE THAT AMMO.

You're lucky you didn't blow up the gun.

The Tokarev 7.62x25 round is way in excess of the chamber pressure the Mauser was designed to handle!!! :eek:

7.63x25 Mauser chamber pressure = 27,000psi
7.62x25 Tokarev chamber pressure = 40,000psi

Order some Fiocchi 7.63 Mauser ammo for that, it's all that's safe to shoot.

omega8omega
September 7, 2007, 11:48 AM
well, it means that I have VERY GOOD Broomhandle :)

Thank you for the warning

omega8omega
September 7, 2007, 11:59 AM
what do you think about ammo made by prvi partizan
of the Republic of Serbia. 7.63x25?

James K
September 7, 2007, 12:20 PM
Everyone tosses around figures proving that the Tokarev ammo will wreck broomhandles, but when the Tokarev was first issued, the Russians still had Mausers in the inventory, and I find it hard to believe a country would issue ammo that would blow up its own pistols. The "Toke" was made to use the Mauser ammo, not vice versa.

Aside from that, the breakage of bolts is NOT just on Chinese or some other copy, or just with "hot" ammo. That bolt is rather weak and if it breaks, the rear of the bolt can and will come back in the shooter's face. I knew one fellow it happened to (German pistol, Remington ammo) and he had the bent and broken shooting glasses amd an eyebrow cut to prove it. That bolt turned out to have a runout of the firing pin hole at the front locking cut, seriously weakening it, but I have seen another broken that did not seem to have any area of weakness.

Bolt breakage certainly does not happen often, but it does happen, and I really have to recommend not shooting those old guns with any ammo, at least until closely inspected and even magnafluxed to detect any incipient cracks in the bolt or bolt stop.

Jim

buzz_knox
September 7, 2007, 12:24 PM
I thought the Czech loading of the 7.62 was the one that was extremely hot, while the Soiviet and Mauser loadings were comparable.

Manedwolf
September 7, 2007, 12:29 PM
Everyone tosses around figures proving that the Tokarev ammo will wreck broomhandles, but when the Tokarev was first issued, the Russians still had Mausers in the inventory, and I find it hard to believe a country would issue ammo that would blow up its own pistols. The "Toke" was made to use the Mauser ammo, not vice versa.

Um...Jim? You're talking about a country that simplified the Browning design to have no safety on the Tokarev because it was cheaper.

You're talking about a country that, in the Great Patriotic War, would mow down its own troops with machine-gun fire if they retreated. Battle of Stalingrad mean anything? One rifle for every few troops, with orders for the next soldier to pick up the rifle as someone was killed?

Little historical perspective there. Conscripts were expendable.

And the Tokarev's round was specifically designed to penetrate thick German coats and steel helmets, that's why it has such extreme velocities. Fedor Tokarev knew what he was doing. A Tokarev round will go right through a German steel pot helmet with a neat little hole, blow up a melon inside and dent the other side. That's why it's loaded like it is. It's an evolution of the Mauser round, and a much hotter load.

Mike Irwin
September 7, 2007, 01:06 PM
"You're talking about a country that, in the Great Patriotic War, would mow down its own troops with machine-gun fire if they retreated. Battle of Stalingrad mean anything? One rifle for every few troops, with orders for the next soldier to pick up the rifle as someone was killed?"

"You're talking about a country that simplified the Browning design to have no safety on the Tokarev because it was cheaper."

Those are what are known as Non Sequitors to the discussion at hand, Maned Wolf.

They have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion of the ammunition.

"And the Tokarev's round was specifically designed to penetrate thick German coats and steel helmets, that's why it has such extreme velocities."

Wrong.

Jim and Buzz are correct -- the 7.62 Tok as loaded by the Soviets during World War II and 7.63 Mauser cartridges are ballistically very similar.

The Czech loadings intended for the CZ 52 and their home-designed subguns of the 1950s are considerably hotter. I witnessed Czech ammo destroy a very very nice TT-30 some years ago in a relatively small number of shots.

As for the safety design of the Tokarev, you neglect mention the other design changes that the Soviets made -- making the feed lips part of a detachable unit (attached to the lock mechanism). This made the gun FAR more reliable as even moderately damaged magazines could be used successfully.

Then there's the design change of turning the locking lugs on a lathe instead of milling them. It reduced the number of machining steps and time it took to produce a barrel by probably half.

Oh, and John Browning modified his own design to make it cheaper and easier to produce. Ever hear of the Browning Hi Power?

Finally, as for the Soviets mowing down their own...

Funny, the Germans did that too... Only they were Jews.

That's also, however, a non-sequitor.


In the 1920s the Soviets and the Germans, being international parriahs, had some active trading partnerships.

One of the things that the Soviets bought in quantity were C-96 Mauser handguns and the associated ammunition.

The C-96 was a partial standard in the Soviet Army, along with the Nagant, until the Tokarev was developed in the 1930s. The 7.62 Tokarev round was a direct offshoot of the 7.63 Mauser round. The dimensions were changed somewhat to suit Soviet manufacturing capabilities, and the ballistics improved, but only slightly.

At that time it appears that the Mauser pistols were withdrawn from active service and warehoused.

During the eary years of the Great Patriotic War, however, the Soviets needed guns... LOTS of guns, and began issuing the C-96s again. The original stocks of German 7.63 ammunition were long gone, so the Soviet Mausers were issued, and functioned well with, Tokarev ammo.

I've heard it claimed, but don't know for sure, that the Germans, faced with HUGE stocks of captured Soviet ammunition during the early days of the war, started issuing their own C-96 Mausers to secondary troops and issued those individuals Tokarev ammunition.

By that time

Manedwolf
September 7, 2007, 01:37 PM
As for the safety design of the Tokarev, you neglect mention the other design changes that the Soviets made -- making the feed lips part of a detachable unit (attached to the lock mechanism). This made the gun FAR more reliable as even moderately damaged magazines could be used successfully.

Then there's the design change of turning the locking lugs on a lathe instead of milling them. It reduced the number of machining steps and time it took to produce a barrel by probably half.

It's not a bad design...I have two, a 1946 Tula with the CCCP grips and a 1952 Polish Radom. Nice, slender design, reliable...but definitely not safe to carry in any method but Israeli carry.

They made it more reliable, yes, but they also did away with the manual safety and grip safety of the Browning, did they not? Once chambered, all you can do is carefully lower the hammer, and hope your thumb doesn't slip. There's no cocked-and-locked. And even then, AFIAK, it's still not safe to carry with the hammer down on a round.

Mike Irwin
September 7, 2007, 01:49 PM
"They made it more reliable, yes, but they also did away with the manual safety and grip safety of the Browning, did they not?"

Did I say that they didn't?

Once again, though, I ask what does the safety, or lack of a safety on the Tokarev, have to do with a discussion of the AMMUNITION?

I can answer that question pre-emptively...

Absolutely nothing.

But to address your last point, Soviet doctrine with the Tokarev appears to have been that it was NEVER to be carried chambered and holstered, and that a round was to actually be chambered only just before it was to be fired.

Manedwolf
September 7, 2007, 01:50 PM
I had just meant that as a suggestion that perhaps safety in terms of all aspect of safety wasn't the highest concern for the Soviets during the war, that's all.

Mike Irwin
September 7, 2007, 01:52 PM
"during the war"

The Tokarev's basic design was laid out in 1929-1930.

No war at that time that I know of.

omega8omega
September 7, 2007, 02:20 PM
Let me say from the first hand experience - Safety never was highest concern for Soviets, still is not.
But Broomhandles were never issued to troops, only to commissars and high rank officers. (Who were concerned about their OWN safety) And I know for a fact that 7.62x25 ammo was used in Broomhandle mausers.
I don't have any safety statistics though

Another thought - would difference in caliber 7.63 versa 7.62 play role in reducing pressure? I think physics should work here... And (as always) I can be wrong...

oldbillthundercheif
September 7, 2007, 02:41 PM
Better safe than sorry. Especially when "sorry" is having your beautiful kraut pistol damaged. If you are not going to be shooting it constantly, having to use more expensive and hard-to-find ammunition should not be too big of a deal, and if you are going to shoot it constantly, the right ammo is the best idea in that scenario as well.

I bet the Rooskies fired plenty of 7.62 out of their Mausers, but do you really want to base your own safety standards on those of the red army?:D

Mike Irwin
September 7, 2007, 03:20 PM
"But Broomhandles were never issued to troops, only to commissars and high rank officers."

In the open stages of World War II in Russia there are indications that C-96s were given to the troops as a means of getting as many of them armed as possible.

I've avoided saying this before now, but...

I've used the ammunition interchangably before, mainly surplus Tokarev ammunition in C-96s Mausers.

Of course, I was young, dumb, and working for American Rifleman at the time. :)

But, as I noted, the Germans also fired plenty of Tokarev ammunition out of the C-96s that they had on the Eastern front. That is, if you believe the Germans.

The reason you can do this is because the Tok cartridge is dimensionally smaller enough than the Mauser cartridge that it will fit in the Mauser chamber, but not the other way around.

This also may be the genesis of the stories that the "Commies could use their ammo in our guns, but we couldn't use our ammo in their guns." I can't tell you how many times I've heard that over the years. Mostly those stories are complete balderdash, but in the case of the 7.63 Mauser and the 7.62 Tokarev, it's true.

MosinM38
September 7, 2007, 05:44 PM
I thought (Correct me if I am wrong.. Probably am ;) ).

That 7.62 Tokerov was OK but not great... As long as it wasn't the hot Czech Ammo or Submachinegun ammo... I dunno. I heard that somewhere.

w_houle
September 7, 2007, 09:11 PM
I thought the "Red 9" (not to be confused with the "Bolo Broomhandle") was issued more often and that the only broomhandle mauser to outpopulate the 9x19 c-96 was the Chinese copy in .45acp
Edit;just for fun (http://www.1896mauser.com/ammo.htm)

Webleymkv
September 8, 2007, 01:29 PM
I believe FNM makes 7.63 Mauser ammunition as well. At any rate, FNM and Wolf Gold (same as Prvi just a different box) is plentiful and inexpensive enough that there's no reason to risk shooting 7.62 Tok ammo, particularly S&B or unknown surplus, in a gun that will never be manufactured again. Save that ammo for the Tokarevs and CZ 52's.

omega8omega
September 28, 2007, 10:00 PM
Well, I did it again...
M30. restored by Federal Ordnance in 198x. Matching numbers. Mechanically very good.

WildPayForwardAlaska - thank you very much for the clips. They work great, but hold only 8 rounds. May they were made for 6round Broomies?
Anyhow - thank you and I owe you.

Still have a question - what do you folks think about 7.63 PRVI ammo?

Cremon
September 28, 2007, 10:18 PM
Don't mess up that finish!! That's a beautiful antique. That had to be hard as hell to find. Did you stumble across that, or find it in an auction?

Wildalaska
September 29, 2007, 12:05 AM
They work great, but hold only 8 rounds. May they were made for 6round Broomies?
Anyhow - thank you and I owe you.


Who knows>>> I have stuff everywhere...glad they work after a fashion :)

You dont owe me, just pay it forward

WildweallneedtodeothatmoreAlaska TM

GW45NUT
September 29, 2007, 01:38 AM
Nice Broom handle. My cousin has one of those and is in the process of restoration. Good luck and happy shooting.

radom
September 29, 2007, 03:36 AM
now thats a nice 96 and no I would not refinish that one at all. This one has had the finish redone some years ago but the only good thing I can say aobut it is the holster is a original.