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View Full Version : Why all the negative talk about DAO?


dwatts47
September 4, 2007, 12:25 PM
Is it the type of Gun (glock, walther, etc.. ) or is just that if it ain't Single action, it aint ok?

evan1293
September 4, 2007, 12:33 PM
Well glocks aren't really a traditional DAO, they're safe action which can be shot almost like a single action by prepping the trigger and shooting to reset. The problem with DAO guns is that they require more trigger movement to fire which can lead to reduced accuracy and can also be slower depending on the shooter. There are some really good shooters that shoot DAO guns (ie Todd Jarrett and the LDA) so DAOs aren't all bad. Typically they're more difficult to shoot well and thats why people don't like them as much.

JohnKSa
September 4, 2007, 12:35 PM
1. The DAO concept is often looked on as a PC solution to preventing Negligent Discharges by creating a longer & heavier trigger. Some people abhor anything that has even the flavor of PC.

2. It's a longer and heavier trigger. That's enough for many folks.

3. The concept was popularized by "non-traditional" guns. Many people despise the idea of anything that relates to "non-traditional" firearms.

4. It's sometimes seen as a solution to the variable trigger pull of a DA/SA auto. Many people feel that this variable trigger pull is not a problem. Many others feel that the proper solution is an SA Only auto carried cocked and locked.

RsqVet
September 4, 2007, 12:45 PM
Now that there are choices like the Sig DAK and the HK LEM there is not a whole lot to be angry about or po-po about double action only, though most if given the choice would still take a single action gun or traditional DA / SA type set up.

These "new" DAO triggers are only recent developemnts (relitivly) and if you talk about non striker (i.e. Glock et. al.) guns with traditional DAO lockwork these guns left much to be desired for shooting fast and well under pressure.

Add in the fact that many end users who have to use DAO guns also have rather heavy mandated triggers and you can see why folks might be down on it because a DAO gun with a 10 pound trigger is not really what you would call a shooter's gun...

Much of what I have said obvioulsy applies to those who have had their guns selected for them or mandated. If we look at civilian firearsm sales and exclude the wildly popular glock, then folks seem to have voted with their dollars and chosen to buy few DAO guns... guess if given the choice folks chose the gun that shoots the best for them... SA cocked and locked guns scare some so they go to a traditonal DA/SA gun.

I forget who said it first but a few trainers view the DA / SA systme as the best carry trigger.... relitivly hard first shot and then easy and accurate second shots... of course others complain that it's ahrd to master the transition...

dwatts47
September 4, 2007, 12:58 PM
I'm not knocking the Single action variant of any pistol, It just seems that we as a whole use Single action triggers as , gulp, a crutch to prevent learning to transition to other weapons.

Manedwolf
September 4, 2007, 01:02 PM
1. The DAO concept is often looked on as a PC solution to preventing Negligent Discharges by creating a longer & heavier trigger. Some people abhor anything that has even the flavor of PC.

And it's seen by some people as a personal safety choice, too. I carry a PT745 DAO in a Smartcarry sometimes because I will not carry a chambered, thus cocked, SA/DA version in that locale. The safety can be bumped off.

Being able to shoot a DAO is another matter. Don't drag the gun to the side. Practice. I can shoot mine accurately just fine, and it doesn't have a ten-mile trigger pull, either.

Musketeer
September 4, 2007, 01:31 PM
This could be messy...

DAO as applied to autopistols is as has already been explained not a true double action only. In autos like the Glock it does not cock and drop the hammer (striker or whatever you wish to call it) from a full at rest position but from a sort of half rest, neither fully down nor cocked. It is a longer and heavier trigger pull than a SA gun like a 1911 but it is still shorter and generally much lighter than a true double action revolver.

As applied to the Glock you get a gun with great reliability and no manual safety. The manual is not seen as needed since there is no hammer in the cocked position waiting to fire at the pull of the trigger (regardless of its weight or length of pull).

Because the pull is longer and heavier than a single action auto many dislike it.

Because it is an auto with a higher capacity than a revolver but lacks any manual safety large department police chief love it. Less $$$ spent on training but the unions are happy with the added firepower.

I like single action autos and I like snubby revolvers. I do not like Glocks or their many DAO offshoots.

Why?

1. In an auto I like the short light pull of my 1911 or Firestar. I depend on the manual safety and have no problem actuating it on the draw. If I am going to have a light short pull I want a manual safety to prevent any accidents, and they do happen. When in my hand the safety goes off and the finger is off the trigger. When out of my hand the safety is on so two separate mechanical actions are needed to fire. Sorry, but on all but the horrendous NYPD 2 trigger for the Glock the pull is too short and light in my opinion for use without a manual safety.

2. For a revolver I like the long heavy (but smooth) pull of my 2" Cheif's Special. No safety but the pull is so long and heavy that it is not going to be drawn by accident. Sorry but again on all but the horrendous NYPD 2 trigger for the Glock the pull is too short and light in my opinion for use without a manual safety.

The Double Action revolver has the pull it does because it needs to overcome the spring for the hammer. This works out to allow its use without a manual safety. The Glock and most DAOs though in my opinion have too light and short a pull to use without a manual safety. I could see a DAO with a manual safety and a light short pull as benificial long before I could see turning the Glock into a NYPD trigger, making it less shootable, simply to overcome the idea of less training and lack of a safety. Better though to have a sa auto with a manual safety or a revolver with a long heavy and smooth DA pull.

The beauty of an auto is its own action will accomplish much of the work for you, allowing you to simply pull the trigger to drop the hammer and fire. The DAO auto though is a step backwards as I see it, making you do more work when there is no real reason aside from the PC correctness of DAO for doing so.

DA first shot follwed by SA is a horrid compromise that I abhore. I have a PPK/S that is real nice but do not use it. How do you practice? Full mags with DA first pull, 50/50 DA/SA, 90/10 DA/SA? What is reasonable? No thank you. When I am carrying a gun I want to know the trigger is the same EVERY time and not have to worry about a new pull the second time I pull the trigger. The idea looked good to police depts because the heavy first pull was a nice way to save training dollars (less accidental shootings by officers with their booger hooks where they don't belong). Training though is a better solution.

Manedwolf
September 4, 2007, 01:41 PM
So basically for some people, what I see is that they don't like DAO because they, personally, can't shoot DAO well. :)

ATW525
September 4, 2007, 01:53 PM
Why all the negative talk about DAO?

I couldn't tell you. I've carried DA/SA guns, SA guns, DAO guns and now safe-action semi-DAO guns. Honestly I'd be unlikely to carry either a DA/SA or SA gun again unless I didn't have a choice. I just don't see a reason for the extra levers and complexity involved with their designs.

My experience with a straight-forward DAO design (a Beretta 96D) was that it was very revolver-like and easy to shoot if one was willing to put forth the effort into developing the basics of trigger control and marksmanship.

New breed of "impoved DAO" designs being offered by most manufacturers these days are even easier to master.

dwatts47
September 4, 2007, 02:01 PM
+ 1 .... GOOD expericences with DAO including the beretta DAO series guns.

Interesting how I'm not the only one that sees "I only like Single action" to mean "I never learned DA".

Whirlwind06
September 4, 2007, 02:08 PM
I had a Kel-tec P11, it is a true DOA auto. Long 9 pound pull with a skinny plastic trigger. No pre-set hammer. I got pretty good with it (after adding a trigger shoe).
A lot of dry firing and the recoil of that light weight pistol messed up my wrist :( It did not help at least. Too much time sitting in front of a computer I suspect is the main culprit. Going back to SA now. And bigger guns that will absorb more of the recoil. Even DA/SA guns work better for me and my aching wrist

Musketeer
September 4, 2007, 02:10 PM
Interesting how I'm not the only one that sees "I only like Single action" to mean "I never learned DA".

As I said the very concept of a DAO auto seems a waste. You get a longer and heavier trigger pull than absolutely needed by a semiauto handgun because you have a problem working a lever that has been present for approx 100 years...

At the same time you get an unsafely short and light pull compared to a DA revolver.

I shoot my J frame and I shoot my SA autos. I don't own any DAO autos because I see them in the same light as improving a horse by adding a fifth leg.

JohnKSa
September 4, 2007, 02:19 PM
At the same time you get an unsafely short and light pull compared to a DA revolver.Without getting into the safe or unsafe issues, this statement is far too general to be accurate.

If you compare SOME DAO autopistols to SOME revolvers that's probably true. But I've definitely messed with more than just one or two DAO autos that have longer and heavier trigger pulls than some DA revolver triggers.

The Beretta DAO pistols (to pick just one common example) have trigger pulls that are remarkably similar to a typical DA revolver trigger.

Musketeer
September 4, 2007, 03:00 PM
If you compare SOME DAO autopistols to SOME revolvers that's probably true. But I've definitely messed with more than just one or two DAO autos that have longer and heavier trigger pulls than some DA revolver triggers.


Very true. My statements were in the context of the Glock type of DAO shared by many other striker fired autos.

Yes, the DA pull of an auto can be lengthenned and increased in force until it becomes similar to or less than that of some DA revolvers. I just don't see the point. One of the beautiful things about the semi auto action is that it will do the work of cocking the hammer/readying the action for the next shot that had to be done 100% manually before with the auto. This resulted in a GENERALLY more shootable firearm. Yes a TRUE double action auto like a Berretta can do this and a Glock with a NYPD trigger can simulate this but I just don't see the reason. Why make a weapon harder to shoot well?

Like I said, I believe DAO are all the rage because they swept the LEO market. Hi Cap autos firing the 9mm, then .40, were in demand by the police unions in large cities across the nation. At the same time elected leaders did not want to be handing out autos with "hair triggers" that would hang them in the press or pay for significant new training utilizing a safety so they made a political choice. They went with the "DAO" wonder nines and all patted themselves on the backs. Of course nobody wants to pay any real attention to the increase in NDs that the departments who have switched from the revolvers to the manual safety free DAO guns... NYC addressed it by turning the trigger pull back into that of a revolver and it still hasn't solved the full problem...

easyG
September 4, 2007, 04:19 PM
Interesting how I'm not the only one that sees "I only like Single action" to mean "I never learned DA".
Who has never learned to shoot a DA pistol???:confused:

Considering the vast amount of DA/SA and DAO pistols on the market today, compared to the meager amount of SA's available, I think that it's rather unlikely that you will find many who have never learned to shoot DA.

But there's just no getting around it....a SA makes for more accurate shooting.
And folks like accurate shooting.

I'm not knocking the Single action variant of any pistol, It just seems that we as a whole use Single action triggers as , gulp, a crutch to prevent learning to transition to other weapons.
Now that you've mentioned "transitioning to other weapons".....

Most folks learned first to shoot rifles and shotguns.
And those rifles and shotguns most likely had nice short light-weight SA triggers.
So it's only natural that those folks would prefer that same nice short light-weight trigger in a handgun.
And why would you want to transition from your rifle with it's short-travel, light-weight trigger to a DAO pistol with a longer-travel, heavier-weight trigger?

For that matter, who here on this forum would prefer a DAO rifle or shotgun?

dwatts47
September 4, 2007, 04:49 PM
EasyG

I'm only stating that by the sound of peoples response to another thread it would seem that some folks are stuck on SA as they never learned to shoot Double action pistols. In the thread "when buying a semi auto, what does it have to have..." most people vehemently denounced the shootability of double actions of almost every kind.

My curiousity peaks when I hear folks say "if I have to shoot a sig, I'll just put that first shot into the ground...", Insinuating that If it's not a 4.25# single action trigger, its useless.

No I don't want an 8 pound trigger on my Rem 870, but I don't want a 1.75 pound pull on it either.

easyG
September 4, 2007, 05:07 PM
"if I have to shoot a sig, I'll just put that first shot into the ground...",
Yeah, I don't get remarks like that either.

But given the choice, I will always prefer a SA pistol over a DA one.

Axion
September 4, 2007, 08:22 PM
I don't like true DAO triggers because it's hard for me to shoot quickly when every shot requires that long pull. I don't mind the long pull on the first shot, for safety's sake, but after the first shot I want a good crisp SA trigger.

That said not all DAO is created equal. Though the QA trigger on Walthers, as well as Glock's safe action trigger, are technically DAO they are much shorter and I can shoot them well so I like those.

Alleykat
September 4, 2007, 08:30 PM
Hmmmmm. Five million Glocks in service. Let me see now, this is really tough...how much weight do I give to Musketeer's opinion? Hmmmm...yeah, that's really a tough one! ;)

saskuach
September 4, 2007, 10:19 PM
I've never thought about it as described by Musketeer. With DAO you're taking a fully automated process (a handgun cycling) and basically adding red tape to slow it down and make it seem safer. So really it should be called a BA Pistol - a Bureaucracy Action Pistol.:barf:

RsqVet
September 5, 2007, 01:02 AM
In defense of Glock, I don't think of their design or other similar striker fired designs when we speak of DAO; The glock trigger is very good in my opinion and closer to a SA trigger than say a sig DAO gun (not the DAK trigger).

Folks can rail against those who prefer SA guns all they want, physics and physiology combine to make the human engineering equation much infavor of SA guns when it comes to "shootability", can a DAO gun,maybe one with a rediculusly heavy pull pull be shot well, sure we all knwo it can but how much mreo trianing and practice will that take.

The flip side is of course if you are talking single action guns people worry about trigger disapline and so forth.

There is obvious a happy middl eground that might be the glock, or reasonably well designed DAO guns such as the DAK / LEM guns, or plain old traditional DA / SA guns...

oldbillthundercheif
September 5, 2007, 03:03 AM
I've just never been as good of a shot with a revolver or DAO as I am with a single-action design. I'm working on it and I'm sure I'll get better, but that's just the way it is right now.

I did pick up a DAO .32 Kel-Tec the other day, though.

You get a longer and heavier trigger pull than absolutely needed by a semiauto handgun because you have a problem working a lever that has been present for approx 100 years

Nice.:D

varoadking
September 5, 2007, 04:55 AM
With regard to DAO trigger pull...any action can be smoothed and lightened. I have a 4586 and 1086 that are a great testimony to that process...

ATW525
September 5, 2007, 06:15 AM
It takes maybe about 20 good dry fire trigger pulls a night to build and maintain skill with a DAO trigger. The main component people are lacking is the finger strength to pull through smoothly, but with even a modest practice routine this is quickly overcome.

Ocraknife
September 5, 2007, 07:22 AM
I believe guns are tools. Sometimes it takes practice to learn to effectively use a tool, to me it is that simple.

SA autos take practice to learn to remove the safety (assuming it is left on or to pull back the hammer if it decocked) before shooting, sounds easy but under durress it may not be.

DA/SA require practce to get used to the radical differences in trigger pull between the first and consecutive shots.

DAO require practice to get used to the longer harder trigger pull.

Each have their unique advantages and challenges and all have certain limitations which have to be considered and trained around to fully maximize their potential. All will do the job they were created to do.

IMTHDUKE
September 5, 2007, 09:12 AM
OK....I am trying to learn something here. When DAO is discussed, I keep hearing, (except for DAK ). I have a Sig P239 SAS w/DAK trigger. What catagory would that fall into? I love the way it shoots and to me there is no problem with the trigger that is smooth as butter.

Most of my guns are 1911 types, but have a Colt Pocket Nine DAO. It has a trigger that is unbelievable hard to pull. Took it to a smith to see if he could do a trigger job, but he would not attempt it. I have thought about selling it for this reason, however, being a Colt and the $ value increasing, decided to keep as for now.

Other than 1911, what are some pistols that are SA/DA....pistols not revolvers.

easyG
September 5, 2007, 09:47 AM
I love the way it shoots and to me there is no problem with the trigger that is smooth as butter.
It's not really a matter of "smoothness"....both DAO and SA triggers can be very smooth (or rather rough).
But a SA trigger will usually require MUCH less pounds of force, and far less travel, to drop the hammer (or release the stiker).
This is why a SA is typically (but not always) easier to shoot more accurately....less force being applied to the trigger and less trigger movement before the hammer falls typically means that the site picture is less affected.

Other than 1911, what are some pistols that are SA/DA....pistols not revolvers.
Actually, most 1911's are SA ONLY.

Here are some more SA's available (but I'm sure it's not all of them):

Most 1911's
CZ 75B SA
Browning Hi-Power
Browning Buck Mark
Ruger Mark III
FN Five-Seven
FN FNP-9 (or FNP-40)
SIG P220 (some models)
S&W 22
S&W 41
Springfield XD's

There are too many SA/DA pistols available right now, so I will not list those.

IMTHDUKE
September 5, 2007, 10:05 AM
Then, from what you say about trigger....where does the DAK fall? It moves to half cock and is almost like a SA drop the hammer function.

easyG
September 5, 2007, 10:11 AM
Then, from what you say about trigger....where does the DAK fall? It moves to half cock and is almost like a SA drop the hammer function.
I don't know....I've never fired a pistol with the DAK.
But if it's anything like the Glock trigger (which fully cocks and releases an already partially cocked striker), then yes, it's ALMOST like a SA....but no quite.;)

IMO, it seems like alot to go through just to not have a manual safety.

dwatts47
September 5, 2007, 11:00 AM
The DAK is Double action only, as the hammer cannot be manually cocked and must be operated with the trigger. Hence double action
Action 1: trigger cocks the hammer
action 2: trigger releases cocked hammer.

Since you cannot manually interupt the process at any time, it is not anything like a single action. On single action only gun (most 1911's , hipower etc..) the trigger does not posses the ability to cock the hammer, it provides only a single function... to release cocked hammer.

IMTHDUKE
September 5, 2007, 11:08 AM
Thanks guys....I need to have this info.

I like the Sig w/DAK that I have, but detest the Colt Pocket Nine DAO. I may be putting that one up on the auction block.

Oh....one other question.......where would that HK P7 fall in this.

dwatts47
September 5, 2007, 11:15 AM
HK P7M8 and P7M13 are both squeeze cocked single action guns.

Can't fire unless you cock it with squeeze mechanism. I have found these guns SA triggers to be nothing short of fantastic. I don't own one though so any HK'ers that can tell me otherwise.. I'm all ears.

ATW525
September 5, 2007, 11:37 AM
IMO, it seems like alot to go through just to not have a manual safety.

IMO, a manual safety seems like alot to go through just to have a slightly lighter/shorter trigger.

ZeSpectre
September 5, 2007, 11:42 AM
In my experience

Some people can't adjust to having one heavy pull and then a bunch of light pulls (DA/SA).

Some people can't adjust to having a safety to mess with (or with the idea of carrying a firearm cocked) (usually SA)

Some people can't adjust to having all heavy pulls (DAO)

Some people can't adjust to having all light pulls (SA)

What's my point? That's why they make different guns for different people. Find what you like and take it to the range as much as you can! I grew up with revolvers, to me "safety" is having a drop-safe gun and keeping yer damned finger off the trigger if you aren't ready to shoot, but I'm not gonna pick on anyone who wants a different method of operation as long as it works for them.

dwatts47
September 5, 2007, 11:53 AM
+ 1 :):D:p

easyG
September 5, 2007, 12:13 PM
IMO, a manual safety seems like alot to go through just to have a slightly lighter/shorter trigger.
Except when you consider this:

1) There's no rule saying that you must use the safety.
Just like when you're shooting a rifle or a shotgun, the safety is there if you want it, but you can leave the safety off if you don't want to fool with it.

I've known a few guys who get worried when they see someone with a cocked pistol, but they don't bat an eye when they see someone with a "cocked" rifle or shotgun.

2) I've never known anyone who could not shoot more accurately with a SA than a DA.
As good as you might be with a DA, I promise, you will be even more accurate with a SA.

That's why they make different guns for different people. Find what you like and take it to the range as much as you can!
I agree, but I still don't understand those who simply refuse to recognize the accuracy advantage of the SA.
There's a reason why the most accurate firearms are SA and not DA.;)

ZeSpectre
September 5, 2007, 02:16 PM
I agree, but I still don't understand those who simply refuse to recognize the accuracy advantage of the SA. There's a reason why the most accurate firearms are SA and not DA.

for some people it's not that they "don't recognize", it's that they don't care.

I had a friend who used to tease me about my"lack of accuracy" and my "huge groups" until I pointed out that I was intentionally shooting a spiral pattern, not trying to rip one single hole. (DAO trigger by the way). That's my personal SD training and others can take it or leave it :D.

ATW525
September 5, 2007, 02:19 PM
As good as you might be with a DA, I promise, you will be even more accurate with a SA.

I've owned SA autos (having thought among much the same lines at the time) and I respectively have to disagree. Once I took the time to learn the DA trigger, it simply didn't prove to be true. Propper trigger control will lead to an accurate shot regardless of the type of trigger.

DPris
September 5, 2007, 02:20 PM
Speaking as a former firearms instructor back when my department switched from the .38 Special Model 64 S&W, I'll say that a long DA trigger can be hard for many people to master, especially those who don't put the effort in to do so. We always had people who needed remedial work or re-qualifications scheduled because they didn't pass with the rest of the guys & gals.
Switching to autos brought scores up immediately for the majority, and dramatically for the "shooting challenged" officers. Without having to deal with the longer and harder DA pull required in qualifying, the much shorter SA trigger makes a marked difference.
My personal opinion is that a DAO auto removes one of the primary advantages of the pistol vs the revolver- that short & easy to work with SA trigger.
And, the SIG DAK is a DAO action. Both it and the non-DAK standard DA SIGs drop the hammer to the same at-rest position for normal carry.
Denis