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gvf
August 30, 2007, 02:51 PM
self-deleted

Trapper L
August 30, 2007, 03:00 PM
At my house it's pretty simple, all of my guns are loaded. Pistols are not on safety and there is a round in the chamber. As the old country judge once told me "The difference between a rock and an empty gun is the price".

No, I don't have kids at home anymore but my girls were raised around guns just like I keep them now. I don't believe in dry firing any gun.

Mark B
August 30, 2007, 03:14 PM
Remove magazine, lock the slide open, look into chamber from breach end, close slide replace mag??
Please don't take this as being argumentative of your post but I would think that pulling the trigger (anytime) is the worst way to make sure a gun is unloaded??

Silvanus
August 30, 2007, 03:17 PM
Remove magazine, lock the slide open, look into chamber from breach end, close slide replace mag??
Please don't take this as being argumentative of your post but I would think that pulling the trigger (anytime) is the worst way to make sure a gun is unloaded??


+1

I don't get the original post:confused:

DAdams
August 30, 2007, 03:19 PM
Where did you come up with that procedure? Very strange to say the least.
There are other processes that have stood the test of time that don't involve the rigamaroll you are going through. No offense of course but I don't see where the action of a withdrawn magazine in concert with removing the round from the chamber does not accomplish the same thing? An empty gun is an empty gun.

PSP
August 30, 2007, 03:23 PM
Best way to check if gun is unloaded is of course to dry-fire. But some think that's unnecessary it seems. So, my second best way for them or anyone: I dry-fire myself, but first, I always put a bore light in the chamber- after checking it visually and by hand - while pointing the gun at a mirror. If it's empty you can see all the way back to the firing pin. Just make sure the mirror is on a safe-wall. Then I dry-fire. This may seem over the top, but so's getting shot I hear.


This post is a joke of course...not funny, but a joke. Putting such poor and dangerous advise on an internet forum could lead some inexperienced person to follow this nonsense. You should have the courtesy to delete the original post IMHO.

gvf
August 30, 2007, 03:43 PM
self-deleted

WSM MAGNUM
August 30, 2007, 03:45 PM
Best way to check if gun is unloaded is of course to dry-fire. But some think that's unnecessary it seems. So, my second best way for them or anyone: I dry-fire myself, but first, I always put a bore light in the chamber- after checking it visually and by hand - while pointing the gun at a mirror. If it's empty you can see all the way back to the firing pin. Just make sure the mirror is on a safe-wall. Then I dry-fire. This may seem over the top, but so's getting shot I hear.


You need a review of gun safety again. Why go through all that when it is quicker and safer to just drop the mag., and rack the slide a few times, and lock slide open and look into the chamber.

Hoss Fly
August 30, 2007, 03:50 PM
Best way to check if gun is unloaded is of course to dry-fire :eek:

I could be reading that wrong but - but-------------
O hell no, i can't belive you said that :barf:
That just ain't right!!!!!!!!!!!

Jammer Six
August 30, 2007, 04:33 PM
It's right at the end of a standard clearance drill.

It's the way the military uses, and the way one of my leagues uses.

At our league, you drop the mag, open the slide, inspect the chamber, show the empty chamber to the range officer, when he says "clear!" you lower the slide, point the weapon down range, put the sights on the berm, and pull the trigger.

A click means the weapon is clear. A bang means you screwed it up, and are in for a ride the rest of the night. Sometimes, it means you need a new range officer. (Not always, some people run through the drill without waiting for the range officer, and they do it so fast that the report and the range officer's "stop!" command happen at the same instant.)

No safety rules are broken.

Average Joe
August 30, 2007, 04:53 PM
Dry fire to see if a gun is loaded, surely you must be joking....

gvf
August 30, 2007, 05:01 PM
self-deleted

Hoss Fly
August 30, 2007, 06:14 PM
I SAID: the best way to check if a pistol is empty is to dry-fire it in a safe direction - to fail-safe it, after dropping the slide, looking inside and feeling inside. And it is the best way. And it is SOP, read the old thread. It is to prevent AD. So, if it's loaded by any chance, it discharges safely so no one is harmed.

-As I mention in the old thread: it is SOP in my friend's unit in IRAQ anytime HQ is entered, and there is an apparatus outside to dry-fire into. There are severe repercussions if this isn't done.

-Civilian: from International Defensive Pistol Association standard range commands:
Unload and Show Clear: Command given to the shooter to unload
his weapon and show the SO a clear chamber or cylinder.

Slide Down or Cylinder Closed: Command given to the shooter to
lower the slide or close the cylinder of an empty weapon.

Hammer Down: Command given to shooter to dry fire into the
berm to show a clear weapon.



-International Practical Shooting Confederation:

8.3.7 "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" – After issuance of this command, the competitor must not resume
shooting (see Rule 10.6.1). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must
perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:

8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer or decocker, if
any).

- From Glock manual:

Under: UNLOADING:

#4: Allow the slide to spring forward by releasing it. Pull the trigger into full pulled position with the pistol pointing in a safe direction.

I don't care how you unload your guns. But castigating me is a bit much.

Thats a bit more info than you first gave :rolleyes:
You did deserve the "castigating" for the first post :rolleyes:

JAXX
August 30, 2007, 06:57 PM
Geez, and this whole time I thought the best way to see if the gun was loaded or not was to look down the barrel and see the round staring back at me. Glad I don't pull the trigger to make sure of it:eek:

Tom2
August 30, 2007, 07:16 PM
Well dry fire is the last step in the military procedure, apparently, I can't remember for sure myself. But stating that as the opening line as if it is the first thing to try.... Sorta like shine your Bic lighter in the gas tank to make sure it is empty.....if it is real empty, yer OK!

CGSteve8718
August 30, 2007, 07:55 PM
Yeah, the initial post was worded a little strangely.

In the military, dry firing your weapon was mostly done after a disassembly and cleaning as a way to function check your weapon to make sure you put it back together correctly and everything appears to be in working order.

When handling a weapon for instructional purposes, I have never seen or heard of anyone dry firing it. If you handed your weapon off to someone or vice versa for some kind of demonstration, all that was ever done was a good visual inspection of it (by racking and locking slide or charging handle) prior to doing so.

At any kind of live range, you just showed the coach or line NCO or whomever that you're clear, and you put your weapon back in condition 4. If you have saved rounds, you let them know and clear it at this point as all firing should be over for that string or whatever exercise, there is no reason to pull the trigger.

As for Iraq, we unloaded our weapons prior to returning to a base from outside the wire. Again, unload and check it. There is no need to pull any triggers. Since I was there late (2006), this clearing is getting out of hand. Not that safety isn't paramount, but on the large bases, there are clearing barrels literally everywhere you go to the point of being facetious, and most of the people on those bases never leave it so they never have their weapons in condition 1 to begin with. It's just officers and new commanders wanting to have their say but that's another story.

The only time I dry fire is for a function check after a disassembly and cleaning or dry fire exercises.

DonR101395
August 30, 2007, 08:00 PM
I SAID: the best way to check if a pistol is empty is to dry-fire it in a safe direction - to fail-safe it, after dropping the slide, looking inside and feeling inside.

The best way as others have said is to visually verify it is empty. Once you visually verify it it is empty, dry firing does nothing except relieve spring tension on some firearms such as the M4/AR15.

OldShooter
August 30, 2007, 08:00 PM
If you notice, the thread entry GVF refers us to was written by GVF. That's a good way to back up your statement.

Unfortunately in the first entry he didn't give us the complete drill, including the mag drop and pulling the slide back to have a look, before pulling the trigger. Some poor newbie just blew a hole through the kitchen floor(or seven holes if he still had the mag in and kept pulling).

In gun handling, it's good to use precise language. Pull the trigger,............ but first be sure to unload the gun.

MyXD40
August 30, 2007, 08:01 PM
SIMPLE TO CHECK IF GUN IS UNLOADED. Release mag. Pull slide back twice. If one in chamber, it SHOULD fly out. Then 3rd time pull slide back, lock it in place. Look inside..kinda hard to miss a bullet..

I dry fire all the time. I usualy keep my handgun unloaded only when at home. Dunno why. But my XD also has an lil peice that pops up that tells me if theirs a bullet in the chamber, and the firing pin, has a lil silver pice the comes out to let me know the gun is cocked. XD yay!!

Lavid2002
August 30, 2007, 08:03 PM
sometimes when i shoot .22 rimfire the shot takes 2 hits to fire.....that would hurt haha.

The Tourist
August 30, 2007, 08:09 PM
At my house it's pretty simple, all of my guns are loaded.

This is a personal pet peeve with me. Why wouldn't you treat guns with respect. And why does that 'respect' have to end with firearms?

In like manner, do you know how many bandages I hand out? How do you think a knife is going to feel, sharpened with Japanese waterstones?

Take your shoes off, carpeting costs money.

I don't care if all of the women in this room have heard all of those words before...

We're getting really sloppy in this country. We don't even respect each other.

DonR101395
August 30, 2007, 08:14 PM
Tourist,
Why does it make you mad? Just having a hard time deciphering your post.

All guns in my house are loaded as well.................or at least they are treated as if they are. You never know when you're going to make a mistake, so you better treat them all as if they are loaded.

Lavid2002
August 30, 2007, 08:30 PM
No offence but it sounds like you just have some pressure built up inside you... Respecting a firearm and respecting someone are 2 completely different things. One is for safety the other is for respect and care for that parson. Just had trouble understanding...

Nakanokalronin
August 31, 2007, 02:14 AM
Best way to check if gun is unloaded is of course to dry-fire.

Ummm, no probably the worst way. Remove magazine, lock open slide, check chamber from the top end and if theres not enough light use a flashlight to be double sure.

gvf
August 31, 2007, 02:39 AM
self-deleted

ragwd
August 31, 2007, 03:09 AM
i was taught the push pull method of checking, lock the slide back push the pistol forward to see chamber , pull back to look down into mag well to see if there is a loaded mag there, do that twice then release the slide then dry fire into a bucket of sand.

Silvanus
August 31, 2007, 06:49 AM
The point of the thread was how to CHECK an UNloaded gun (and why it was titled as such) not how to unload it.

Then why don't you just pull the slide back a little bit and take a look at the chamber. That still seems a lot easier.

And your first post was VERY misleading. If you take the time to tell other people of your technique, you surely have a few seconds to spare to explain yourself.

Cremon
August 31, 2007, 07:03 AM
Sorta like shine your Bic lighter in the gas tank to make sure it is empty.....if it is real empty, yer OK!

Some poor newbie just blew a hole through the kitchen floor(or seven holes if he still had the mag in and kept pulling).

I am DYING over here!!!

joab
August 31, 2007, 07:13 AM
Best way to check if gun is unloaded is of course to dry-fire.preferably pointed at the neighbor's cat for negative audio confirmation

Hammer Down: Command given to shooter to dry fire into the
berm to show a clear weapon.
Not to check, but to show,to demonstrate to a range master who does not have the time to visually check each individual weapon in a group situation where failure to follow procedure can result in tragedy
This demonstration comes after you have been instructed to check for yourself that the gun is indeed unloaded

Eghad
August 31, 2007, 07:18 AM
Every firearm is always loaded until it is visually confirmed that the chamber does not contain a round which is done after releasing the magazine if necessary.

That way you will spend less time explaining holes and patching them not to mention a forgoing a possible trip to the emergency room or morgue for someone if you choose to dry fire it after you have confirmed it is unloaded. Your ears will thank you also.

Jammer Six
August 31, 2007, 08:34 AM
Tourist, who are you talking to, what are you talking about, why are you telling us, and what is your point?

JoeBlackSpade
August 31, 2007, 08:59 AM
ROFL!

Thanks! This thread is hysterical!
When you dry fire in the military, at the conclusion of clearing your weapon in all those sand-filled clearing barrels you are:

a.) Demonstrating that you have completely disarmed

b.) Performing a last-minute function check (as mentioned) before turning the weapon into the armorer. If there's no tell-tale click, the weapon may need repair. It makes no sense to store a broken weapon, only to find the problem later. Some military armories are designed around being able to distribute weapons in cases of emergency, where fast response is needed. In such cases, you don't want to respond to a problem, get a weapon issued, charge a round into the mag, and then find out it has a broken firing pin. The function check before the weapon is turned in prevents that, and it is standard SOP across the board almost universally. Not only will you dry fire after you have cleared the weapon, but you'll dry fire again after cleaning.


c.) Allow the firing pin/hammer to
"go home", so the weapon is not in a half-cocked or SINGLE ACTION mode.


Keep in mind that officers and NCO's are responsible to someone else for personally verifying that the weapons issued under their command are COMPLETELY CLEAR after a range evolution is finished. Should they run around and look into EVERY CHAMBER of EVERY WEAPON, three or four times per day (or more)? The better solution is to have your guys walk through the paces with you, and then do a mass check, by having everyone point at the berm, and sound off with a "click". There are many applications for this added safety procedure, and it appears in many different settings, but the point is to make the system as double or triple redundant, since you've got literally hundreds of thousands of weapons fired in so many different capacities by so many different people.

This is why there are SO FEW N.D.'s in the military.

So after you unload and show clear, you are rigorously demonstrating that the weapon is completely inert, with the magazine well empty, the chamber empty, and the hammer is at rest on the empty chamber.

:D

The Tourist
August 31, 2007, 10:22 AM
Tourist, who are you talking to, what are you talking about, why are you telling us, and what is your point?

The crux of this thread entails handling of firearms. The proper mindset is that "all guns are always loaded."

If that is the correct manner, why do we have things like "accidental discharges"? In effect, an AD is just sloppy gun handling.

My position is the phrase "proper mindset." And that idea also includes learning what you are doing--and learning what is expected from you.

For example, several years ago Ruger offered a rebuild kit for its single action revolvers to prevent these "accidental discharges." However, for 100 years people knew that a single action revolver was best carried loading only five chambers.

People had no respect for the revolver, didn't bother learning a manual of arms for that firearm, blew their foot off, and blamed Ruger.

Same with knives. I sharpen with Japanese waterstones, the same tools you use to sharpen samurai swords. What does someone think is going to happen when he fingers the blade? (There's even a name for this, we call it "tickling the dragon.")

To conclude, I believe that safety around any piece of machinery--not just guns--begins with proper training as a child. And if the concept of respect is truly learned, a person uses this idea in all aspects of life.

RsqVet
August 31, 2007, 11:31 AM
Maybe I don't get something here... Is it just me or is this about the stupidist suggestion ever?

Should we all keep borescopes around to check our rifles as well?

Seroioulsy why do folks keep coming up with new (not better) ways to do the same old things?

gvf
August 31, 2007, 12:23 PM
I posted originally and have deleted that for several reasons: one was that I should have specified that after MY own way of checking to help see the chamber after unloading - using a light for the chamber and then a mirror to check the barrel - I did not then dry-fire it standing and pointing the gun at the mirror. I assumed that would be understood. I do it later, pointing the gun at a large bin of sand-like material in my yard, used for other purposes but allowing a safe "stop": should gun be loaded by any remote chance.

Now, using a light is my way and was offered as a suggestion for most people who see no need to dry-fire. It helps me to see better and the mirror to check if there is any obstruction in the barrel, including somehow a round, or a cleaning element, whatever. I also said I do this after checking visually with my eyes alone and then by feel. And I also said the gun was unloaded that was being checked.

Dry-firing and my light ritual are fail-safes. I use them should I be distracted and give a hurried glance at the chamber in bad light while distracted or impatient. There is a built in fail-safe.

I'm not stupid, and I'm not an idiot, nor all the other screaming imputations that this suggestion made to be helpful has generated - by many.

So, I also deleted the post because I do not want myself using a forum that has so many willing to characterize people they do not know, and so hostile and contemptuous of common friendliness or any simple difference in practice from their own.

And for those others who did not understand I dry-fired in a safe place - yes, I am sorry if that caused some confusion and it could have been clearer.

Go check your guns anyway you want. Post whichever way you want as well.

I'm using other sites in the future.

FirstFreedom
August 31, 2007, 12:37 PM
Aside from the dry firing stuff, there's nothing wrong at all with using a mirror to look up the barrel to the breech face to double/triple check for unload. The gun is not pointed at you obviously. Pretty good idea really, as a redundant measure.

IM_Lugger
August 31, 2007, 01:19 PM
I know you can see the firing pin when you look down the barrel even with the action closed with no flashlight or mirror, if there's enough light in the room... I've done that myself BUT only after racking the slide to see that it's unloaded.

I guess I just don't understand why you wouldn't just pull/lock the slide to see if the chamber is empty?If you want to dry fire than you should use a snap cap which would block the firing pin.

Jammer Six
August 31, 2007, 06:20 PM
Tourist, the first safety rule does not say that "all guns are loaded."

It says "TREAT all guns as if they were loaded at all times."

If you clear a weapon and dry fire it downrange, it is, as a matter of pure fact, not loaded. Your rule is, therefore, at that moment, simply not true.

The first rule is about attitude-- exactly what your rant was about.

Rather than putting your (and my) safety at risk by blindly following a rule that is demonstrably untrue at times, I suggest you follow your own hollering, get some training, and learn what a proper attitude is first, and rant later. I prefer gun safety rules that are not grounded in imagination.

If you shoot next to me, and demonstrate that you are following rules written by the tooth fairy, I will correct you, and teach you safety.

Have a nice day.

joab
August 31, 2007, 08:07 PM
My pinky or thumb nail has always served me well
I just don't get the need for a mirror

Action open, the gun wont fire
If you can see your nail at the end of the barrel your good to go

The Tourist
August 31, 2007, 08:10 PM
The first rule is about attitude

Fair enough.

How would you then handle the knives at my house?

varoadking
August 31, 2007, 08:13 PM
Best way to check if gun is unloaded is of course to dry-fire

Did someone actually say this? :eek:

Ignore for the moment the obvious that has already been rehashed...but the term "dry-fire" applies to an unloaded weapon. You would have to verify it was unloaded before you could "dry-fire" it...

shaking head

The Tourist
August 31, 2007, 08:17 PM
Did someone actually say this?

VK, after being gone for most of the day--and now reading the recent posts--I'm with you.

In fact, I was taught to check a chamber and clear a weapon before I actually got to shoot one.

My first question is, what if you're a deer camp and there are no mirrors?

Jammer Six
August 31, 2007, 08:40 PM
I'll be darned. We're going to get along.

I have no idea how I'd handle the knives-- my knife folds up, and it never occurred to me that it was dangerous.

"This part good, this part OW! Hold it by the good part."

So tell me how knives should be handled. :cool:

The Tourist
August 31, 2007, 09:13 PM
So tell me how knives should be handled.

I did not say "knives," as in knives in general. I said "knives at my house."

I just saw a le cordon bleu trained chef cut herself on national TV.

My point is that I believe the crux here is care and respect. For the purposes of this debate, this is a gun forum. That topic is reflected in how we handle firearms.

Shakey357
August 31, 2007, 09:22 PM
Reading all of these posts reminds me of one of the best quotes regarding firearm safety I ever heard: "Do you know what gun kills the most people? The unloaded one".

varoadking
September 2, 2007, 06:37 AM
Hard to believe this thread has been dormant for several days now... :D

Shane Tuttle
September 11, 2007, 09:28 PM
Tourist, the first safety rule does not say that "all guns are loaded."

It says "TREAT all guns as if they were loaded at all times."

If you clear a weapon and dry fire it downrange, it is, as a matter of pure fact, not loaded. Your rule is, therefore, at that moment, simply not true.

The first rule is about attitude-- exactly what your rant was about.

Rather than putting your (and my) safety at risk by blindly following a rule that is demonstrably untrue at times, I suggest you follow your own hollering, get some training, and learn what a proper attitude is first, and rant later. I prefer gun safety rules that are not grounded in imagination.

Well, Jammer, I guess Jeff Cooper himself was just an ignorant imaginary. Of course, we all should take what you state as gospel...seeing that you "have a line of customers out the door"...:cool:

As far as using a mirror...I think it's a valid point, but don't agree with it necessarily. The issue being if the loaded gun happens to go off, whatever the reason, there will quite possibly be shattered glass. Injury might be a result.

MyXD40
September 11, 2007, 09:37 PM
using a mirror..sounds like a lot of work to me.

Sorry but some of you are way tooooo scared. Now for me, an all black gun(interior), not hard to tell if theres a bullet..o0 see that shinny gold thing in there..that's just bling bling!

Now I know I'll have some haters about the too scared thing, so to cover myself from having to knock the smarts into your head, I release the mag, pull slide black twice. 3rd time lock it open. visual check, release slide, if my XD then I run my index finger across the top to feel if the lil notch is up to indicate theres a bullet in the chamber, then dry fire.:barf::barf:

BluesBear
September 11, 2007, 09:57 PM
Now before we all have to grab our umbrella's to keep from getting doused by the backsplash perhaps we ought to establish a few things.

If you're going to quote Cooper at least quote him correctly and completely and not use the Reader's Digest condensed version or just whichever part you choose to include.

I copied these down many many years ago so here are the four rules, in their entirety, as originally stated by Cooper himself.

1. All guns are always loaded until you establish whether they are or not.2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction at all times: on the range, at home, loading, or unloading.3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target and you are ready to shoot.4. Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you haven't positively identified.

However even Cooper himself changed a word or two over the years;
We hoped by this time that the standard rules of safe gunhandling would have become universal throughout the world. They have been arrived at by careful consideration over the years, and they do not need modification or addition. We trust that all the family have them by heart in all languages, but for those who came in late here they are again:

All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)

Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.

Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

Those will do. We need all four and we do not need five. It should not be necessary to belabor this issue, but life is not perfect.
And yess even the Colonel himself had addredded the dissenters.
It is a continuing annoyance to see people messing around with the safety rules. The four that have been developed over the years suffice entirely as now stated. There is no need for more, and we really cannot get by with fewer. However, some half-educated enthusiasts keep trying to make up a new set, or to add or subtract, which does nothing but serve to confuse matters. A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded. This leads to disaster, yet we hear it all the time. Sometimes it appears we become so obsessed with the ephemeral goal of safety that we lose sight of the purpose of the exercise. Safety is not first. Safety is second. Victory (or success) is first.


Now it seems to me that everyone and their grandmother has their own way of repeating these rules and for the most part all of them are well and good. But if you're going to be debating the Cooper version then by golly get them right.

Jammer Six
September 11, 2007, 10:07 PM
Hey, Bear. How's it going?

I'm not going to debate him.

Didn't like him or what he said when he was alive, and dying didn't improve him any.

And now we have a perfect example of just what a *WONDERFUL* teacher he was-- his disciples don't remember what he said, even where the safety rules are concerned.

BluesBear
September 11, 2007, 10:28 PM
Howdy,

No worries Mate.
It really doesn't matter if you liked him or not.
He was a teacher not a Messiah.
However most of this teachings stand up very well to intelligent debate.

Personally I never cared much for Smokey The Bear. But he did teach me a great way to neutralize a campfire.




And I am still puzzled trying to decipher the "have a line of customers out the door" comment. :confused:
Perhaps I am really as stupid as several have claimed?

Jammer Six
September 11, 2007, 10:50 PM
I dunno, either. I think he was comparing my sales ability to Cooper's.

Personally, I'm not sure it has a bearing, but hey...

JohnKSa
September 11, 2007, 11:30 PM
Everybody cool down.

It's a good topic, but there's no need for it to be so HEATED.