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View Full Version : Thia will probably start another caliber war....but


kristop64089
August 30, 2007, 06:37 AM
I'm not trying to kick a dead horse, but I just ordered a G33(.357sig). Some people wanted to know why I wanted that caliber, my simplist reply is....Because I want it.

Now, my question is this. I don't need thirty tables of ballistics, or Homers handload guide, but it's often said it can't do nothing that a +P+ 9mm can't

Who the heck shoots +P+?(and why?), and what guns are rated for it? and why put so much stress on a gun thats not rated for it? and if you wanted .40 preformance in a 9mm size bullet, that costs as much as +P+, why not buy .357sig?

I am a bit of a gun collector, which is part of the reason why I bought it, I have seen all the charts and pix on wound cavitation(which always seem worse w/.357sig). I priced ammo not much of a difference in the SD loads.

Definately not cheap for practice, but if it's a carry gun why practice w/anything other than what you will carry?

just curious.

Officer's Match
August 30, 2007, 08:54 AM
Georgia Arms makes some fine high performance practice loads at very affordable prices. I really am interested in 357sig for my 23 via barrel change. Let us know how you like it.

Manedwolf
August 30, 2007, 08:58 AM
Who the heck shoots +P+?

I do, for one. Winchester Ranger +P+ 127gr. Fine round, exceptional in combat pistols like the Beretta or Taurus 92s. The only thing recommended is a heavier recoil spring.

FirstFreedom
August 30, 2007, 09:57 AM
Because I want it.

That's good enough reason!


Who the heck shoots +P+?

Some do, of course. I have Buffalo Bore +P+ loaded up in my home defense pistol, a CZ75 SP01. BUT I admit I don't *practice* with this load, so I may be asking for trouble. Besides, if one did practice with this load, it would be mega super expensive, and could batter the gun unduly.


and what guns are rated for it?

That I don't know, but it's been oft repeated that CZs are very strong and hold up to regular +P. Don't know about +P+.

and why but so much stress on a gun thats not? and if you wanted .40 preformance in a 9mm size bullet, that costs as much as +P+, why not buy .357sig?

Good question, good point. I guess the only answer is the higher capacity of the magazines of the 9.


not much of a difference [in price] in the SD loads.

OK, I'll buy that:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=946392&t=11082005

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=611943&t=11082005

Only a relatively minor difference.

but if it's a carry gun why practice w/anything other than what you will carry?

Very good question. Maybe you shouldn't. But running a lot of cheap stuff through a gun improves your shooting/marksmanship skill set, even if the recoil feels slightly different. As long as you shoot a 100-200 rounds of your carry stuff to make sure it's ultra reliable, then practicing with cheap otherwise still makes sense. I am hypocritical on that, since I've not run but a couple rounds of the Buffalo Bore through my home defense gun. But on my carry CZ75 compact, I have run a bunch of Speer gold dots through, the same round that is carried in that one.

BUT, if you can afford it, there's definitely something to be said for shooting ONLY your carry ammo, to become 100% familiar with the feel of the increased recoil & blast of the hot carry loads.

Spenser
August 30, 2007, 02:42 PM
Just my opinion, but I hate using supercharged ammo in something just to get stopping power equal to another caliber. Why not just shoot the other caliber?

I have no idea whether it's true or not, but my tiny little mind's logic dictates that a high pressure round will have more room for error in the load. It's probably going to be harder on the gun than standard pressure loads. It's not as fun to shoot because of increased recoil, muzzle flash, etc. Just more things to go wrong.

So I'd agree: why do 9+p+ when you can simply step up to the .357 in a standard load?

Having said that: I'm not a .357 Sig fan. However, I concur with the original poster's logic in selecting that caliber over a hopped-up 9mm. Makes much more sense to me.

longeyes
August 30, 2007, 03:42 PM
I have settled on Ranger T +P+ in my 9mm Glocks for SD purposes but I am also looking at a .357sig Glock, in my case the G32. I like the fact that I can, with a barrel swap, also shoot .40 if I want.

Curious how the recoil is in the G33...

VA9mm
August 30, 2007, 03:47 PM
I fear beating up my Beretta with +P+. I'm fine nailing the X-ring with DPX +P and have total confidence with it.

Richard
August 30, 2007, 03:53 PM
Kris, you missed one point. What is that? The 357Sig is one hell of a hoot to shoot. We are talking kick, noise, and flame. I have 357Sig barrels for my Glock 23 and 27, I love to shoot both! Regards, Richard:D

Socrates
August 30, 2007, 04:14 PM
I'm not going to get into the caliber, but, I do have to ask why you didn't buy a larger caliber, like the 27, 29 or 30, and just swap in a barrel if you want to shoot the 357 sig?
Plus, you'd be able to shoot heavier bullets, the only failing the 357 sig has, other then being a 357, and not a 40, 10MM,or 45.;)

S esq.

Fremmer
August 30, 2007, 04:32 PM
Hopefully, Steve Camp will comment.

He taught me a thing or two about +p and +p+ 9mm rounds, too. ;)

kristop64089
August 30, 2007, 05:54 PM
Check this link out(it was actually posted in one of my threads)
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964

I'm definately not a ballistics expert, but correct me if I am wrong (i mean it too :)), but isn't the cavitation in the would channel greater with the .357sig, then the others compared.?

I'm not going to get into the caliber, but, I do have to ask why you didn't buy a larger caliber, like the 27, 29 or 30, and just swap in a barrel if you want to shoot the 357 sig?
Plus, you'd be able to shoot heavier bullets, the only failing the 357 sig has, other then being a 357, and not a 40, 10MM,or 45.

Well, to answer this, I checked before my purchase. I can do the .40 barrel swap, 9mm barrel mag swap with the g33.That was the driving sales point for me. I have this issue and it's this....I want to shoot the "main"caliber designed for the gun. I wanted a .357 sig. I won't mind shooting .40, or 9mm out of it. But, what I didn't want was a 40 to shoot 357 with(can ya see what I'm talking about, I'm kind of neurotic about it:o)

I have A bundle of nines, one being a CZ 75 PCR D, which is the best nine IMO, an xd-40, SA 1911, Witness 10mm, S&W 637, even Tanfoglio .25 acp.
What I was lacking was a powerful sub-compact that was in a proven platform,and was easily upgradable(add mags plus extension, add extension, drop in barrels) at relatively low cost. I had a Kel-tec P-11 and shooting target loads was uncomfortable, not to mention "hot" loads. The guns are simply not designed for them.

Well, that got me to thinking if they are not designed for them, that will surely increase the failure ratio, and shorten gun lifespan. I Decided to get a gun designed around a badass cartridge. I did not get a chance to shoot one before I bought(hard as hell to find), but I re-assured myself that nothing is more miserable than a Kel-tec p-11 shooting +p's.


Curious how the recoil is in the G33

I get it Saturday will let you know Sunday(I'm actually kinda geeked about it)


I am not trying to start a movment for the sig round, But it just seems so hated and I want to know why?It definately fills a niche whether we like it or not. I think it's like everything else in life, if you don't understand it, insult it.

I don't reload (yet, I am going to take my hand at it tho) But since it is Glock I wouldnt anyhow so I don't even need that argument.....

So, I guess you can say I bought into the Glock perfection BS, but they have one hell of a marketing dept.(they have actually nick named the G33 "the pocket rocket", who could resist)

AK103K
August 30, 2007, 07:17 PM
I got my first 357SIG a couple of years ago. Next thing you know, I have 5. :)

Most people I know that have them, love them. One thing is for sure, it stirs up a lot of blood. :)

After the usual barrage of nay sayers, who were usually big 9mm proponents, (now it seems to be the 10mm crowd) I emailed Speer and asked their opinion on the differences. Hey, they spend a lot of money on research, so I figured its probably got a little more credibility than all the heated banter and apples to oranges ballistic comparisons thrown at you when you ask.

Speers answer.....

The 9mm is a 35,000 psi, +P is
38,500 psi and +P+ is 40,000 psi. The 357 SIG is a 40,000 psi.

Bullets of the same weight will approximate the same velocities in SIG and +P+.

The difference is gun construction, all 9mm's will not handle +P+. All
of the 357 SIG's are made to handle the pressures for the caliber.


Two things to keep in mind here.

One, so far, the only maker I've seen that actually states in writing that +P+ is acceptable for use in their pistols, is Hi-Point.

Two, while the +P+ 9mm and 357SIG are close, the comparison is of a maxed out 9mm, and a base power/loading of 357SIG. The SIG is just getting started.

As for the blast and flash, I really havent noticed that its a lot of either. I shoot both indoors and out, and either I'm using some sort of low flash ammo, or those who say it is, are using something I'm not. (Speer Lawman, Federal, my reloads using AA#9) I dont think its all that loud either, and I shoot it out of three different barrel lengths. I do wear ear plugs when I shoot though, maybe some dont.

You also hear all sorts of horror stories about reloading for the 357SIG. Truth is, its not hard at all to load for. It does require one extra step, either lube or a .40S&W carbide sizer die. If you use a powder like AA#9, you get a full case of powder, so the bullet cant set back, (which seems to be a big worry and screaming point for some people) and a fairly hot load that works well.

As far as saving money reloading, I dont know if you really will. At least I wasnt really saving all that much, but I'm comparing case lot factory (at the old rates) to what it cost me to reload. The savings difference was about that of 9mm factory bought in bulk, a couple of bucks a box of 50. I know the prices on everything has gone up a good bit, maybe its become cheaper to reload. The dies were pricey, (I use Hornady) and you need to buy the extra .40 die if you dont want to lube. You also cant just use any old 9mm bullet. 357SIG specific bullets or something like the 147 grain JHP's. Standard 9mm profile bullets are to short.

Socrates
August 30, 2007, 07:34 PM
HMMMM.
I think I like the G33 better then the 26/27. Anyone done any chronographing yet with a G33?

The barrel is shorter then I would like, but, I suspect you could probably get a 4" barrel cheap, and drop it in. However, from the one 26 test, that showed 9mm averaging about 1200fps out of that little 3.48" barrel, I might be shocked by the velocity that little gun produces.

Strange: for once Hogdon actually used a 4" test barrel for a caliber. Their max loads for 147 grain XTP's result in 1254, 1173, and 1110 fps. However,they are being safe, and only going to 38.7k max.

Doesn't look much different from the +P 9mm loads out of the 26.

Still, what you do have is what I consider excellent stats for a SD round. Looks like between 13-16" of penetration, and,
.49" to .64" of expansion. In other words, it's doing what it's supposed to: gives you 357 magnum performance in a 10 round, pocket gun.

S esq.

WESHOOT2
August 30, 2007, 07:43 PM
What is the difference between (my) 9x19 'hotties' and 357 SIG?


buncha babies; go try a 9x25 Dillon.....:D

kristop64089
August 30, 2007, 08:03 PM
can i get a barrel for my witness 10mm?

kristop64089
August 30, 2007, 08:16 PM
Socrates, to be honest, I didn't do a whole lot of research as far as ballistics(i'm a simpleton, details somtimes confuse me:o).....I took the logic of "it picks up were 9mm leaves off" and ran with it.

Seemed to me, a good starting and stopping point.

Socrates
August 30, 2007, 08:17 PM
Why? From what I can gather, the 9X25 Dillon is a sort of .38 Super on steroids, or, in other words, a cartridge who's construction might come from some class of shooting.

When I look at it, it makes most sense if your trying to make major caliber, using a light bullet, and high velocity, for low recoil.

Other then that, here's my take. You take the 10mm, which has GREAT bullet results with the current bullets available, and, thanks to the larger surface area, expand extremely well,
pull out those stellar bullets, double neck down, first with a 357 sig die, then with the 9X25 die, and use a light bullet
at hyper velocity, that, chances are, won't work well. You don't really gain that much in velocity, and, you REALLY loose bullet weight, and expansion.
WHY?

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

vs.

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"

Because you can?

S J.D.

Socrates
August 30, 2007, 08:35 PM
On the plus side, you have the strongest 20 oz gun anywhere.
I suspect the only difference between the 26/27/33 is the spring rates.

The 29/30 have heavier slides, are heavier built, and have a .29" longer barrel.

Depending on what you can conceal...

I'd have gone for the extra 4 oz. and the stronger gun. But, when actually faced with trying to conceal the gun, the 33 maybe the best choice for me.

Here's Double Taps results for the .357sig:

DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

compared to .357 mag:

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

Here's a gello test from Brassfetcher:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Various%20.357SIG%20cartridges%20(Heavy%20Denim%20test).html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/357SIG%20various%20bullets%20Heavy%20Clothing.JPG
http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/357SIG%20various%20cartridges%20Heavy%20Clothing%20bullets.JPG

Jason_G
August 30, 2007, 08:46 PM
Well, I think alot of .357 SiG chambered pistols are probably nothing more than .40 S&W's with different barrels, and those .40's are nothing more than revamped 9mm's. It's the cheapest way to do it, and I'm almost certain some manufacturers probably take that route rather than make a .357 SiG from the ground up. If that's the case, then there's nothing advantageous about the chambering in comparison to a hot 9mm. Of course, there are .357's that are built as .357's, but then the drawback becomes a large case for that size bullet, and the cons that the size brings (capacity, mainly). If you are just wanting the chambering for the heck of it, or for some reason want to max out penetration, then it is a good caliber to do it. Personally, I'd probably either go with the 9mm or the .40 if I were choosing something in that size range, but different strokes for different folks. As long as the gun is a quality gun, and is built around that cartridge, it ought to be fine. I have entertained the idea of getting one before, but I guess I am just a .45 fan.

Best,
Jason

WESHOOT2
August 30, 2007, 09:48 PM
I know of one ammo manufacturer who's 10mm load knocked the gelatin blocks (yes, "blocks") OFF the table :rolleyes:

(forget the holes and cavity)

The reason the 9x25 died was from excessive recoil.

If velocity doesn't matter why is there a 300 KONG?

If bullet diameter doesn't matter why is there a 45-70?

If the 10mm / 45 ACP / 460 R / 356TSW / 357 SIG / 357 Magnum is so great why is there a 40 S&W?
And why is it the choice of American law enforcement?


FWIW, I wear a 22LR.
Its back-up is a 22LR.
I have other choices (normally close at hand).


Oh, so many questions.....

dwatts47
August 31, 2007, 01:05 AM
I'm also on the 127 +p+ boat.

A Glock 17. stronger recoil spring, and steel guide rod.

I don't need a nitch caliber like the .357 sig, but like the hottest loads there are.

Have hundreds of these down range... the G-lock isn't beat up by them at all. I shoots better tighter groups with this than anything. Also use 230 gr +p win ranger in a stainless sig with great results.

1wildpig
August 31, 2007, 02:31 AM
A friend of mine has a G33, I shot it a few times at 50 yds ringing steel every time...these little Glocks are something else. But, as far as being designed for the .357 sig cartridge - it's really not - the 26. 27. and 33 all share the same frame and slide, even the recoil springs...only differences from the G26 are the size of the hole in the slide (.40), the barrel, mags, ejectors and extractors....so, with that in mind, I'd say that the strongest one is the G26 with more steel around the chamber to handle what's inside. The 9mm Glocks seem to be the most durable ones they make. The good thing about it is that "IF" something does fail with it, Glock will make it right no matter how old it is....enjoy!

kristop64089
August 31, 2007, 05:48 AM
But, as far as being designed for the .357 sig cartridge - it's really not - the 26. 27. and 33 all share the same frame and slide, even the recoil springs...only differences from the G26 are the size of the hole in the slide (.40), the barrel, mags, ejectors and extractors

But, the few companies that produce .357 sig guns, test the round in these platforms (repetadley I'd think ) Other than taking around that is NOT recommended by many gunmakers and runningthe risk of catastrophic failure.

I'm not knocking around those that do, just explaining why I want .357sig, to the naysayers. (of course my line of logic could be flawed)

givo08
August 31, 2007, 07:56 AM
Definately not cheap for practice, but if it's a carry gun why practice w/anything other than what you will carry?

Because cost is a real factor to most people. You can shoot 2x as much 9mm for the same price but then buy premium 9mm loads and have just as good self defense performance. My 9mm defense load is over $1 per round...not many people can afford to practice exclusively with that, I just make sure it runs reliably in my gun and know where it shoots (POI vs. POA) and then practice with cheap FMJ.

My .45 defense load is the same price, and I can't afford to practice with that either, but the .45 FMJ that I do use for practice is $0.24/round, which still gets quite expensive. I certainly can't burn through boxes of .45 like I can with 9mm that costs $0.13 / round. I am much more comfortable hitting something quickly and accurately with my 9mm than my .45 because of the amount of practice time I have on it, which is directly related to the cost of practice ammo.

AK103K
August 31, 2007, 04:37 PM
Factory 357SIG practice ammo is only a couple of bucks a box more than factory 9mm, if you buy in bulk. You get to practice with the same full power ammo you carry, just a different bullet.

357SIG SD ammo also isnt any more than SD 9mm, and sometimes its less.


The one question that often pops into my mind when I hear the 9mm people say "practice with cheap, standard 9mm, and then use +P+ for carry" is, how does it help you learn to shoot your gun with what you carry? Your not practicing with loads that equate to your carry ammo, so its really not quite the same. Its kind of like practicing with .38's in your 357Mag. Wouldnt a .22 serve the same purpose if you just need to shoot something?

bigghoss
August 31, 2007, 05:41 PM
practicing with light loads or a .22 similar to your carry piece helps your shooting skills while preventing a development of a flinch. but you should still regularly practice with your carry ammo.

AK103K
August 31, 2007, 05:45 PM
Personally, I think practicing with the lighter loads would contribute more to the flinch. If what your shooting causes you to flinch, you need to work that out, not hide from it and delude yourself.

kristop64089
August 31, 2007, 07:06 PM
(my opinion here) If you are going to carry s**t hot loads, you HAVE to PRACTICE w S**t hot loads.

You can play all day with a .22 if you want, but lets be real here. We all carry for one reason, and most of us carry the most powerful ammo we can stand to shoot, in the gun we shoot. If you are going to use the +P+ for its intended purpose, you better be ready to compensate for the recoil, noise, and flinch.

You can't play all day with 115grn fmj, and then switch to 124 grn gold dot +P, and tell me you'd shoot the same with it unless you PRACTICED.

For this .357sig I have bought 150 rnds 125 target load, to get accostomed to the gun. after I break it in, i will shoot nothing but full house SD thru it, even if its only 20 rnds a pop, at 25 a box.

My lifes worth it, how 'bout yours?

AK103K
August 31, 2007, 07:55 PM
The difference between the 357SIG SD ammo and training ammo is not really noticeable, at least it hasnt been to me, between the Speer Lawman and Gold Dots. Even the slightly hotter hotter Double Tap, which basically closes the 100 fps gap between the base 357SIG and 357Mag, feels and shoots about the same.