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Ocraknife
July 18, 2007, 01:30 PM
I was told by a gunstore employee that the 7.62 x 39 round was less accurate than the .223 rem. I figured that it was mostly due to the rifles typically chambered for each round but he said the 7.62 x 39 was inherently less accurate.

Is this true? If so, why?

Thanks

Manedwolf
July 18, 2007, 01:35 PM
I was told by a gunstore employee... There's your first clue. ;)

It's also due to the fact that a lot of "gun store experts" :rolleyes: base that assumption on cheap milsurp 7.62x39 from somewheristan.

I always love when someone tries to compare the "accuracy" of a banged-up Romanian AK copy or battlefield pickup with a shot-out barrel shooting crappy surplus ammo to a National Match AR shooting Hornady competition ammo.

Pit a newly made Russian AK-103 against an issue M4, using standard military issue ammo, I don't think you'd see too much of a variance in accuracy at combat ranges.

Scorch
July 18, 2007, 01:43 PM
Qne of the biggest causes of inaccuracy in 7.62X39 rifles is varying groove diameter and varying bullet diameters. There are 7.62X39 rifles with groove diameters of .312", .311", .310", and .308". There is 7.62X39 ammo with bullet diameter of .312", .311", and .310". You can imagine the bullet rattling down the rifle's bore, in some cases. Quality of bullet construction and consistency of powder charge vary widely, also.

In and of itself, 7.62X39 is as accurate as many other cartridges when fired in a high-quality rifle designed for accuracy, with the appropriate bore diameter. I have seen 7.62X39 bolt action rifles that would shoot cloverleaf groups at 100 yds, so it's not the cartridge itself.

Gazpacho
July 18, 2007, 01:50 PM
The CZ 527 (bolt action rifle) is capable of firing Wolf 7.62x39 at 1.5MOA accuracy at 100 yards. For crap ammo, that is outstanding performance.

Ocraknife
July 18, 2007, 02:04 PM
So, we are in agreement that his assertion was false? They have a excellent condition Mini 30 with a scope for $450 is that a good deal?

Gewehr98
July 18, 2007, 02:34 PM
But I wouldn't buy the Mini-30 hoping for accuracy any better than an AK or SKS. (Sold my Mini-30 because it didn't do anything my AK wouldn't, and I could get 30-round mags easier)

Ocraknife
July 18, 2007, 02:40 PM
I wouldn't buy the Mini-30 hoping for accuracy any better than an AK or SKS. (Sold my Mini-30 because it didn't do anything my AK wouldn't, and I could get 30-round mags easier)

What kind of accuracy are we talking about here? I wonder if I would be good enough to notice a difference?

Manedwolf
July 18, 2007, 02:54 PM
Well.umm...no. :) The round isn't the problem. The Mini 30, like the Mini 14, has a barrel that's just too thin. After a few rapidfire rounds, it'll start shooting patterns, not groups, because that too-thin barrel heats up and changes shape. NOT an accurate rifle.

It's not the round's fault.

A good AK, as in a MAK-90 sporter or Russian Saiga, will be much more accurate.

Try a Saiga 7.62x39 for $279, you'd probably be happier. I see dust-covered minis for under $400 in every shop, here, because they're just not that accurate. People have traded up.

Gewehr98
July 18, 2007, 03:03 PM
And when my 7.62x39 handloads can produce 2" 100-yard groups from a Bulgarian SLR-95, then a 4" group from a Ruger Mini-30 just doesn't cut it. Hence me dropping the Ruger like a bad habit. I don't expect bughole benchrest accuracy from the AK, but I do expect an American-made autoloader patterned after the M1 Garand/M14 to do at least as good, if not better. :o

USMCG_HMX1
July 18, 2007, 06:40 PM
My SKS-D can shoot 2 inch groups at 100 yards with iron sights. If I could find a rail for it to mount some optics I'm sure I could get much better results with it.



Kris

Ocraknife
July 18, 2007, 07:59 PM
It is not easy for me to buy the right SKS, there are so many variants and I refuse to clean off cosmoline darn-it! Really, I wan't a fun centerfire plinking rifle that can cull deer and such without being distroyed by ammo prices. Maybe I need to buy another AR (I sold my last one.):(

45Marlin carbine
July 18, 2007, 08:01 PM
took some tinkering to get group size down on my M-30, now it's much better than any AK I ever shot. I've seen some decent shooting SK's. never owned a bolt gun w/the chambering but the round ain't an 'inaccurate round'

Fat White Boy
July 18, 2007, 11:32 PM
I'm sure that the 7.62X39 can be tinkered around with and made accurate in a specialized rifle. But, the original platform, the AK47 was never as accurate as an M16. Especially after about 300 yards. I have talked to Vietnam era snipers who said that as long as the AK's were more than 300 yards away, they felt reasonably safe. The AK was never meant for long range shooting. Remember all the talk about the studies from WWII that said most combat was at less than 200 yards? That is the AK's job, provide a volume of fire out to 200 yards...Remember, this is for the 7.62X39 cartridge. The newer, smaller caliber AK's may be more accurate at greater range. I don't know.

ARmasterzach
July 18, 2007, 11:49 PM
I traded my old romanian ak (along with several other run of the mill guns):) in torwards my bushmaster and It was the best decision ive ever made in buying a gun. the ak with wolf ammo was a fun gun and it was, but it just wasnt built for match grade accuracy. it was more of a pull the trigger real fast and hope you hit something kind of gun. But my friend has an egyptian ak and it is quite accurate with good ammunition so I dont have anything torwards the round. I really wouldnt mind having an ar chambered in 7.62x39:rolleyes: but thats kinda spensive

bullfrog99
July 19, 2007, 01:09 AM
Take 1 7.62x39, pull the bullet, neck down to .264 load up a 90% powder charge, place the case into rifle, fire form, load with 129 grain VLD bullet and get the most accurate combat worthy cartrige that can be put into an assault class rifle. 6.5ppc The 7.62x39 isn't inherintly innaccurate, but the firearms and ammunition made in and for it generally are.

BTW, I sold my bushmaster and bought an AK (RPK-47 with BDC scope to be exact) ... some people like AR-15's i'm not one of them.

If I were you, I would avoid the mini, they have the same accuracy level as an AKM, but without the reliability (mostly because nobody makes good magazines for them).

chris in va
July 19, 2007, 01:28 AM
Just get a Saiga 20" and enjoy.

rugerdude
July 19, 2007, 01:59 AM
+1 to that.

An SKS will do okay, but my yugo gets 4" groupings (10 shots) with wolf ammo and iron sights at 100 yards. With better ammo I'm sure accuraccy will improve, but a 150 dollar gun shooting as well as 450 dollar mini-30 makes me smile.

The saigas are well made, and even though they are based on the AK action, they are a cut above in terms of accuraccy and fit/finish from what i've read.

ARmasterzach
July 19, 2007, 02:46 AM
i want a saiga 12ga:D

Ocraknife
July 19, 2007, 06:13 PM
Where can I buy one of thos Saiga rifles and do they use AK mags?

PTR 91
July 19, 2007, 06:32 PM
No, Saiga's do not use AK mags. Gun show venders should have some saiga rifles.

Manedwolf
July 19, 2007, 08:19 PM
Saigas can use AK mags with a bit of modification requiring some tools and the installation of a bullet guide, but otherwise, they have to use either the Saiga mags, or the German-made mags modded for the Saiga by Surefire. The catch and some other elements are a bit different, necessary for them to be imported whole as sporting rifles.

Here's my Saiga in the top of this picture. It's got a Surefire mag in it.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1242/738005876_c8cd154a08_o.jpg