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View Full Version : Which evil black rifle?


Playboypenguin
July 10, 2007, 08:17 PM
Let's pretend a certain footloose, flightless fowl was considering their first ever eveil black gun purchase.

Let's say their handgun safe was completely full but they have a single slot left in their long gun case.

If they were wanting to find a military style rifle that was...

- decently powered round
- semi-auto
- had a capacity of 20+ rounds
- and maybe even has a nice stainless barrel

...what would you suggest they buy?

Please post links or pics if you have them.

itman
July 10, 2007, 08:24 PM
I thing you need one of these http://www.ftknox.com/

j/k

That do you want to do with this new gun?

FirstFreedom
July 10, 2007, 08:40 PM
In that hypothetical *cough* scenario, I'd say that the intrepid adventurer is treading onto dangerous ground. You think handguns are addictive? But if said individual were to insist upon being a maverick and not heeding the warning, it's difficult to beat the ubiquitous AR15 family of rifles, in terms of quality, availability, varieties, accessories, etc. But you'd have to first define "decently powered".

W.E.G.
July 10, 2007, 08:46 PM
FAL

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25511&stc=1&d=1184118357

fisherman66
July 10, 2007, 08:51 PM
MP10

http://remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/mp5/mp510/mp510.gif

kristop64089
July 10, 2007, 08:54 PM
What fisherman said. Or an AR15m4 variant.

Indrid Cold
July 10, 2007, 08:59 PM
Armalite AR-10 with National Match trigger and barrel in black. You need this. Trust me. :D

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_135/products_id/411534423

HorseSoldier
July 10, 2007, 10:06 PM
A lot would depend on the budget available for such. Money for a pretty nice AK gets you a bare bones AR, nice AR money gets you nearly to M14 clone territory, etc.

If you can only get one, I'd recommend looking into the Lewis Machine and Tool Monolithic Rail Platform AR (budget allowing). The ability to swap barrels gives you a pretty compact alternative to the usual AR ability to swap uppers, plus it's one of the best civilian available ARs out there.

ws6_keith
July 10, 2007, 11:08 PM
Agreed, price point has a lot to do with it...also, what is it's intended role. For a multipurpose rifle that fits all your criteria, I'd pick the Saiga .308. Great round, semi auto, 20rnd mags available, but not in stainless. All for around $400, maybe a bit less.

http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_option.htm

http://www.raacfirearms.com/images/p_saiga_option.jpg

RevolverLover
July 10, 2007, 11:44 PM
A price budget would help alot for recommendations. I suggest looking at M14 clones but then again i'm bias. ;)

Playboypenguin
July 10, 2007, 11:47 PM
This would be a fun shooter but also a "SHTF/world overrun by killer fashion models" type gun. I do not want to spend over $1000.00 here in Oregon. Things here tend to sell for about 20% under retail.

RevolverLover
July 10, 2007, 11:50 PM
This would be a fun shooter but also a "SHTF/world overrun by killer fashion models" type gun. I do not want to spend over $1000.00 here in Oregon. Things here tend to sell for about 20% under retail.

So now we have a $1000 budget....do you want a .223 or 308?

ConcealCarryNY
July 10, 2007, 11:51 PM
M1a

Playboypenguin
July 10, 2007, 11:58 PM
do you want a .223 or 308
I am open to suggestions. I would love to hear the pro's and con's of both.

I am outside my element here. Even when in the Army I carried a sidearm and not a rifle so I have little experience with military type long guns.

Wildalaska
July 11, 2007, 12:02 AM
Colt M4 gery

WildeveryoneshouldhaveoneevenmesobybybushyhellocoltbouttimeigotoneagainAlaska

FS2K
July 11, 2007, 02:38 AM
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bcwa2s16m468.asp

Neato Cartridge for a Black Rifle. I want a couple myself. :)

joshua
July 11, 2007, 06:03 AM
Get an AR with a 16" bbl, Colt, DPMS, RRA, BM have been good to me. M4gerize it, doesn't matter. Then when you get another slot in the safe get a DPMS LR in 308. Let us know what you end up with. josh

Slugthrower
July 11, 2007, 06:50 AM
Many want you to join the ranks of the AR 15/ M forgery owners. I have a old AR 15 with a 20" bbl. The 16" bbl gives up about 300 fps. When using a rifle that shoots a small caliber round, it is very dependent upon velocity for terminal effectiveness. The 20" bbl. makes the 5.56 round effective to about 300 yds. the 16" about 200 yds., not a good trade off for portability.

The draw backs to the M16/4 clones are that you will only be able to use collapsible stocks, folding stocks are out. The ARs have a self soiling gas system. The conventional ARs get extremely dirty from just a few shots, they are also very difficult to get properly clean. You will need to buy special cleaning accessories to do so. A special chamber brush, a tooth brush, and plenty of cheap pipe cleaners is the minimum. You will want to get a forearm tool that helps you remove the hand guards. Trying to remove those guards without a buddy to help is a pain in the ___.

If you want to get all the "Barbie doll" accessories you will also want a A3 or A4 version, also you may want to buy a set of free floating hand guards and the accessories to go with that. The truth is that you will spend more in accessories on a AR than for the AR itself. Figure about 800 or so for the rifle and about another 1000 or more for the "Barbie doll parts" Many will buy EO tech sights, After market BUIS, laser sights, new mag followers, mag pulls, mag couplers, stronger extractors, etc.

Do yourself a favor if you do want an AR, buy a piston driven model, the standard gas system makes for a dirty rifle. The piston saves a lot of maintenance in that department.

Personally. I would wait for the FN SCAR-L or the H. They should be on the market in 08'. Folding, collapsible stock with a adjustable cheek piece, and built in fore arm accessory rails, in addition to having a piston driven gas system makes for a better rifle. IMO.

Have fun selecting your new rifle PBP. Welcome to the darkside.;)

blume357
July 11, 2007, 07:06 AM
but I have to say the comment about the

"SHTF/world overrun by killer fashion models" type gun."

gave me my first chuckle of the day, thanks!

fisherman66
July 11, 2007, 07:18 AM
Well, since you are buying on a shoestring I'll withdraw my MP10 suggestion and change it to AR clone.

FirstFreedom
July 11, 2007, 07:39 AM
Well, this is all you'll need to repel the fashion models from your presence:

http://www.norwalkpower.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=57

HorseSoldier
July 11, 2007, 11:40 AM
When using a rifle that shoots a small caliber round, it is very dependent upon velocity for terminal effectiveness.

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Fragmentation and all that are just fluffy bonus. Put one or two through someone's sternum and they're sitting down reflecting quietly on whatever recent mistake they made that prompted you to shoot them.

The draw backs to the M16/4 clones are that you will only be able to use collapsible stocks, folding stocks are out.

Collapsibe stocks are superior to folding stocks for anything except storage.

The conventional ARs get extremely dirty from just a few shots, they are also very difficult to get properly clean.

Not really and not really.

Do yourself a favor if you do want an AR, buy a piston driven model, the standard gas system makes for a dirty rifle. The piston saves a lot of maintenance in that department.


Most of the civilian piston uppers are from POF and have a pretty shaky reputation for durability and reliability. LWRC seems to produce a better product, but they're priced accordingly.

Since the AR is not especially finicky and not terribly hard to keep running with light cleaning, the piston uppers seem kind of pointless to me (and heavier than direct gas uppers) unless someone is planning on running a suppressor a lot.

Personally. I would wait for the FN SCAR-L or the H. They should be on the market in 08'. Folding, collapsible stock with a adjustable cheek piece, and built in fore arm accessory rails, in addition to having a piston driven gas system makes for a better rifle. IMO.


Agreed on that part, at least in theory. Hopefully I'll be toting around a .mil version some later this year to see if they really live up to the expectations.

tINY
July 11, 2007, 01:43 PM
Get the best of two worlds: AK reliability and cheap 223 ammo

Century arms is making a Galil that retails for about $1k....




-tINY

Manedwolf
July 11, 2007, 01:59 PM
Get the best of two worlds: AK reliability and cheap 223 ammo
Century arms is making a Galil that retails for about $1k....

Well. It's old Galil parts attached to a newly made US receiver, barrel not chromed. I'm not sure where their insanely high price, higher than a tricked-out Bulgarian Arsenal SLR-106, came from.

And Saiga is selling one for $259, a real Russian AK in 223/5.56 made at Izhmash armory, not by Century's dremel monkeys. :)

MDman
July 11, 2007, 02:02 PM
where can they be found at that price?

Manedwolf
July 11, 2007, 02:03 PM
A Saiga? Anywhere, pretty much. That's what I bought mine for in a gun shop locally. They're from $259-$289 anywhere I've seen them.

DonR101395
July 11, 2007, 02:11 PM
A Colt, LMT, CMMG or Stag M4, then buy another safe. For the under $1000 you can get any of the above except the Colt. Buy the complete upper and lower separately from any of those companies except Colt and save the 11% FET for a complete gun.
Beware they will multiply.

dustinlowery
July 11, 2007, 02:21 PM
good post by horsesoldier iv fired 1000+ rnds through my bushmaster without cleaning and only stoppage i got was empty mag same goes for my service C7A2 rifle AR's are the way to go until they get a good piston driven upper then that will be the way to go

ws6_keith
July 11, 2007, 05:08 PM
$1000 budget? How about both the .308 AND .223 Saiga's. Would still come in under the $1000 limit. Or maybe give up the .223 for a 12gauge?

http://www.raacfirearms.com/images/saiag12_adjsight.jpg

Diesel1
July 11, 2007, 05:09 PM
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s151/glocker12/Picture1240-1.jpg

I'd choose what I own, a Bushmaster M4 A3. For about $899.oo at FS guns in Woburn MA.
Craig

W.E.G.
July 11, 2007, 05:35 PM
What kind of magazines do the cheap Saiga .223 rifles require?

rgates
July 11, 2007, 06:08 PM
For Saiga's with $1000.00 you could get .223 and .308 and 12 g.

Slugthrower
July 11, 2007, 06:49 PM
The conventional ARs get extremely dirty from just a few shots, they are also very difficult to get properly clean.

"Not really and not really." HorseSoldier.

The military had to switch to a ball powder way back in the 1960s simply because regular powders would foul the receiver to the point of failure in a relatively short period of time. AR's get far more dirty that other semi-auto/select fire rifles. The AR has a forward bolt assist for good reason. The Ljungman direct impingement system is a dirty system. Just firing 40 rounds for qualification puts as much or more carbon fouling into the receiver as 200 rounds from a piston driven system.

I know that PBP likes his firearms very, very clean. I would dare say that he would want it Drill Sergeant approved clean. The AR is not the easiest rifle to clean without going to extra lengths to do so. So in PBP's case it would be a time and detail intensive task. I know most of us are satisfied with reasonably clean. PBP most likely will not be.

Shot placement is most definitely paramount, however if one doesn't place the shot properly, it is nice to have a margin of error. COM is ideal, yet we all know that in a dynamic situation that isn't always an option. FMJ rounds make the velocity important, in the civilian world we can just go with a HP round anyway. I guess it would all be in the persons preferences, regarding ammo choices and application. Hopefully, outside a military environment, no one will need to shoot a person with an AR, other than the police.

DonR101395
July 11, 2007, 10:26 PM
^^^^^^^:confused:What are you saying:confused:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Lane
July 11, 2007, 10:55 PM
I'm sorry to get off the topic of this post first off i love AK's and AR's but it does not matter how dirty an AR gets or for that matter any rifle. Its if it works when it is dirty and any AR iv ever shot does, especially my 20" chrome line bolt and chamber iv gone through 2,500 without a problem or a cleaning, my 16"colt lower and Bushy upper iv gone about 1500plus rounds before a jam. You do not need a piston driven system!

Playboypenguin
July 12, 2007, 12:29 AM
I know that PBP likes his firearms very, very clean. I would dare say that he would want it Drill Sergeant approved clean.
Believe it or not, when I was in basic training (which was about the only time I ever used an m16) my Drill Sgt. used to say that they needed to alternate which weapon I recieved because if I kept getting the same one I would eventually clean it into non-existance. :o

So, yes, I do like my firearms clean enough to lick. :)

tINY
July 12, 2007, 05:51 PM
I bet when PBP screwed-up he was issued the G3.....



-tINY

FirstFreedom
July 12, 2007, 08:58 PM
Believe it or not, when I was in basic training (which was about the only time I ever used an m16) my Drill Sgt. used to say that they needed to alternate which weapon I recieved because if I kept getting the same one I would eventually clean it into non-existance

Bwaaahaha! :D

Seriously, I think you need to decide caliber first - are you going to go with an intermediate round like .223, 7.62/39, or 6.5 grendel?

OR, are you going to go with something I'll call "full powered" for lack of a better description, like .308, .260 rem, or .243?

Give us that info, and the *realistic* budget, and whether or not you're willing to buy used, and I can narrow it down much more. But you like pretty bluing and stainless steel, so I don't think an AK style "fits" you.

Look at some of the available chamberings in ARs, just from DPMS:

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/

And here are a couple of DPMS choices in .223 that may fit the PBP genre:

http://www.dpmsinc.com/photo.aspx?path=http://www.dpmsinc.com/@ssets/images/firearms/large/223_arctic.jpg

http://www.dpmsinc.com/photo.aspx?path=http://www.dpmsinc.com/@ssets/images/firearms/large/223_race.jpg

http://www.dpmsinc.com/photo.aspx?path=http://www.dpmsinc.com/@ssets/images/firearms/large/223_bull_24_special.jpg

http://www.dpmsinc.com/photo.aspx?path=http://www.dpmsinc.com/@ssets/images/firearms/large/223_pardus.jpg (this one's kinda eye-catching)

http://www.dpmsinc.com/photo.aspx?path=http://www.dpmsinc.com/@ssets/images/firearms/large/mark_12.jpg

If you get a rifle in .223, then I'd agree with slugthrower to get a 20" or longer barrel, or at least 18" - less blast/noise, more velocity, don't give up much in the tradeoff of balance (though you do give up SOME balance). I'd go 20" if for a pure fighter, or 22 or 24" if a varminter/precision rifle.

homefires
July 13, 2007, 10:22 PM
Or you can do like I am! I have a decent SKS model D. I ordered a T-6 Stock to Slap it into , $79.00.... And Call it good! Ammo is dirt cheep. Parts are cheep. Magazines are cheep.

Ok the SKS is not as accurate as say a AR-15. I would trust the SKS before I would the AR. Less Moving Parts, Easy to Clean, Never had one fail on me.

Drop an AR-15 and a SKS in a lake, Come back in two weeks, see which one fires the first 20 rounds.!!!!

When I get done with mine I hope it will shoot 2-3" at 100 yards. If not better.

7.62x39 is comparable to 30-30 ballistic wise. Good for most North American Game up to Mule Deer.


We Just had two Black Bear Bites this week in New Mexico! Hummmmmmm!!!!!

Pointer
July 13, 2007, 11:29 PM
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/