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View Full Version : Super reloads on a .30 caliber M-1 Carbine


Doug.38PR
July 10, 2007, 04:21 PM
Has anyone ever tried super reloads on an M-1 Carbine to get more velocity and power out of it? They say the gun is already equal to or more that of a .357 magnum handgun....and they also say that it will penetrate most body armor.
But has anyone ever tried heavy reloads on them?

Gewehr98
July 10, 2007, 04:33 PM
Also, the M1 Carbine is a gas gun. The gas system may be self-regulating, but only to a certain extent. Hot-rod at your own risk.

hdawson228
July 10, 2007, 06:16 PM
Since the M1 Carbine is a proven and sucessful battle weapon and lethal load, not sure of any need for super loads.:cool:

Rimrod
July 10, 2007, 08:23 PM
The .30M1 is more powerful than a .357 handgun, but not a .357 carbine. I love them and they are fun to shoot, but if I had to go into a gunfight it wouldn't be my first choice. Nor my second, third or fourth either.

TPAW
July 10, 2007, 08:41 PM
Using super loads would worry me. Even if the carbine was brand new military I'd be skeptical. Assuming your using a govt. carbine. I don't know, I'd say stay with what it was designed for. JMO

Deaf Smith
July 10, 2007, 09:54 PM
Ever hear of 'Super face'? That is what happens when you hot rod a .38 Super (it blows in the face.) The .30 carbine was made to work with a 110 gr bullet at 1990. It is not made to match a 30/30 or 7.62x39 and trying to make it match it will just give you 'Carbine face'.

If you want AK performance, get an AK. The carbine is petty good as-is. I'd leave it alone and enjoy it.

jrothWA
July 10, 2007, 11:00 PM
its not worth the trouble.
You want to hotrod get a bolt action that can handle that type of loads.
Carbine was just a secondary arm for rear eschelon personnel. It got upgraded as a "practical" arm.

The .357 carbine and .30 Carbine are about equal but choose the .357, as it more versatile.

Paul B.
July 10, 2007, 11:52 PM
I think that the M-1 carbine with FMJ bullets is a losing proposition. However, I'm of the thought that it might be a horse of a different color for defense using a proper soft nosed bullet. Any thoughts on that?
Paul B.

Dave R
July 10, 2007, 11:58 PM
One of the wonderful things about reloading is that you can use better bullets. Major bullet manufacturers have soft point and hollow point bullets for the M1 Carbine that will give it better performance, if you intend to hunt something with it. I dunno about deer, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a coyote, badger or other varmit.

Gewehr98
July 11, 2007, 12:45 AM
It was legal, I made a good, clean shot on the spike buck, and my family needed the meat. Having said that, I probably wouldn't do it again, even a couple of decades after I used it for that purpose.

However, Dad handed me a couple boxes of Winchester and Remington 110gr soft-point .30 M1 Carbine ammo for that hunting trip. I'd wager if you're not a handloader, the stuff is still available. Again, no need to hot-rod the round.

Just checked - it is very much available:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/defenseh_jh.htm

oldbillthundercheif
July 11, 2007, 12:50 AM
CorBon came out with a hot .30 carbine load a while back. I think they pushed it as far as safety allows. It may be worth checking out.

TPAW
July 11, 2007, 01:38 AM
Paul B asks:

I think that the M-1 carbine with FMJ bullets is a losing proposition. However, I'm of the thought that it might be a horse of a different color for defense using a proper soft nosed bullet. Any thoughts on that?

Perhaps, but it dropped lots of bodies in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam, with the FMJ.

USMCG_HMX1
July 11, 2007, 02:15 AM
I would expect that a SP would expand and dump all that kinetic energy into the target, up to about 150 yards.

I'm actually looking to buy one from CMP ..... anyone want to pass some word on the process I would definately love to hear about it.


Kris

FS2K
July 11, 2007, 02:28 AM
Perhaps, but it dropped lots of bodies in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam, with the FMJ.

and

The .30M1 is more powerful than a .357 handgun, but not a .357 carbine. I love them and they are fun to shoot, but if I had to go into a gunfight it wouldn't be my first choice. Nor my second, third or fourth either.

Personally speaking, my trusty Carbine IS my #3 choice, tied with my AR's and behind My FS2K and AK's. (Controversial yes...But it is what it is! LOL) Loaded with soft-points of course! :)

That is, if I EVER needed a rifle as a weapon...

Oh...and NO on the Hot loaded .30 cals....

Doug.38PR
July 11, 2007, 10:51 AM
Some ask, "why not just get an AK" or something else. I sold my M1 a year ago for 200 (because it was a Universal jamming piece of garbage). Then, at the same gunshow, bought an AR-15 for 750. Now I like the AR-15. It's a good gun. But it's a little large. I like the M1 Carbine because of it's size and simplicity. You can rack the bolt back with a twitch of your thumb practically. It's not too bulky. Not a whole lot of things hanging off of it. It shoots a larger bullet than the AR. While the bullet doesn't have near the velocity of say a 30-06, it is adequate as a rifle. BUT, I was wondering, if the power level of the rounds could be boosted a little to give it more penetration.

I know FMJ isn't the only one available (although it will give you more penetraion), JHP is also available in 30 Carbine.

Doug.38PR
July 11, 2007, 01:09 PM
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/video/rifleshooting/GATV0604_rifle2/index.html
http://www.auto-ordnance.com/ao_m1_f.html
good info on said gun

Magnum Wheel Man
July 11, 2007, 01:32 PM
but not great... that doesn't mean I don't love mine...

I also have a 30 Carbine Blackhawk, & an Automag 3 in 30 carbine...

I have loaded a bit hot for the Black hawk, & the AM-3, but only shoot factory loads in my rifle, as it's Mil Surp, & I don't wish to damage it... & the gas system is much more picky...

... IMO, probably the best improvement you can do is in bullet selection... I always wanted to do a a cast bullet pointed bullet mold, possibly boat tail & gas checked, as there is very limited bullets available...

I have also given thought to a 30 cal barrel with a quicker twist rate to stabilize a heavier bullet, chambered in 30 carbine... I always had a vision of a 300 Whisper cartridge out of a 30 carbine rifle... of course my gun building buddy always has to return me to reality in the fact that the action is just not strong enough for much more than factory ammo...

Gewehr98
July 11, 2007, 03:53 PM
BUT, I was wondering, if the power level of the rounds could be boosted a little to give it more penetration.

Just how much penetration do you NEED? A .30 caliber, 110gr bullet, either FMJ or SP, moving at 1,975fps and delivering 953ft/lbs of energy ain't nothing to sneeze at. It's even better than my 1600fps/158gr .357 Desert Eagle loads.

What do you plan on thumping or defending against? :(


BTW, your second link above points to a semi-auto replica of the .45 ACP M1 Thompson SMG, not the .30 M1 Carbine.

Doug.38PR
July 11, 2007, 04:30 PM
Auto Ordinance website is weird. THe link even says M1 at the end, but it winds up on the Thompson when you click on the link. You have to go to the rightside and click on M1 Carbine:rolleyes: (weird)

Anyway, as far as penetration goes, I'm talking about penetrating things like auto bodies (which actually most handguns can do anyway on modern average cars), car engines, brick walls, heavy body armor, and all those other things that high powered rifles are supposed to penetrate (30.06). I know it will never match something like the 30.06 or even .308 but I'd like to know I could get the most out of it as possible if ever I thought I needed to.;)

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8_3.htm
another interesting bit of info

Magnum Wheel Man
July 11, 2007, 04:50 PM
I don't think there ever was an armor piercing round for the 30 carbine, as it was really designed as a long hand gun... so it likely needs a heavy enough bullet to penitrate like the bigger 30's, & it doesn't have the rifling twist rate needed to stabilize a heavier bullet, & would require a steel core or ??? to get penitration with the lighter bullet

Deaf Smith
July 11, 2007, 04:52 PM
Yes Cor-Bon did come out with a .30 carbine load. DPX load. If you want max performance, within safe pressure ranges, that's the load to get. Then use the old 110 fmj for practice.

hdawson228
July 11, 2007, 06:30 PM
Engine blocks and brick walls? ? ? ? No plutoniam enriched ammo available.

bobn
July 11, 2007, 06:58 PM
i have loaded the hornady soft point bullet 110 grain. feeds well, kills wild dogs, small to moderate sized deer, porcupines etc. bobn

Ruger4570
July 11, 2007, 09:05 PM
My personal opinion is that hot loading a M1 Carbine will only cause grief. I suspect the bolt velocity increase will do no good for the receiver or the bolt. There is also the possibility of bending the action bar too. The bottom line is that the 30 Cal Carbine is nothing but a pistol catagory type cartridge so it can't possisbly be loaded up to the velocities of many of the posted cartridges. I have a USGI carbine that is actually quite accurate, at least the first 2 shots. It tends to string as it get hotter, as most do. I have used mine on Coyotes all the time out to 100 yards or so. It did a good job with some of the Hornady hollow points, even the Speer plinkers seem to shoot decently.

Gewehr98
July 11, 2007, 09:24 PM
Anyway, as far as penetration goes, I'm talking about penetrating things like auto bodies (which actually most handguns can do anyway on modern average cars), car engines, brick walls, heavy body armor, and all those other things that high powered rifles are supposed to penetrate (30.06). I know it will never match something like the 30.06 or even .308 but I'd like to know I could get the most out of it as possible if ever I thought I needed to.

Then get a .308 or a .30-06. Hot-rodding .30 M1 Carbine ammo so you can split engine blocks and then stuffing said blue pill specials into a gas-operated WWII carbine designed for the original fodder is a recipe for disaster. :(

Doug.38PR
July 11, 2007, 10:25 PM
Then get a .308 or a .30-06
M-1 Carbine is a lot smaller, lighter and simpler weapon. I'm not talking about making the gun unsafe or hard on the gun. But just pushing it to the bare limit to get the maximum effect out of it.

As for splitting engine blocks, I understand that's a tall order for any rifle, I was more or less exaggerating to make a point.

hdawson228
July 12, 2007, 02:21 AM
I suggest keeping within the gun's design limits. If you want 3200 fps ammo, then get the AR, and yes with enough rounds it will cut a hole in a cinderblock wall. Not sure about a brickwall.

gak
July 12, 2007, 10:00 AM
I'm talking about penetrating things like auto bodies (which actually most handguns can do anyway on modern average cars), car engines, brick walls, heavy body armor, and all those other things that high powered rifles are supposed to penetrate (30.06).

Someone may have already mentioned it here, but look in archives about 6 months to a year or so back and a very interesting post(s) depicting a fascinating penetration test of .30 Carbine favorably showed its abilities (2x4s, water, concerete block test). Also, my two Inlands shooting 110 gr military ball have never had any problems with "penetration" of they type you're talking about. I echo others comments about not pushing the envelope too far, but play around with bullet selection...and again give the new Corbon load a try.

Ruger4570
July 12, 2007, 11:26 PM
It is a friggin 30 caliber carbine for crying out loud. You expect to get Magnun performance out of it. It is basically a "pistol" kind of round. It does a great job of disabeling people, even killing some. It is not a great Cape Buffalo or Elephant round.
It is similar to a 357 mag round, no more, no less, well maybe less.
Why not just get a 308 Win or a lot of calibers that do better and have much more power. Screwing with the 30 Carbine is simply flirting with disaster.

Magnum Wheel Man
July 13, 2007, 07:56 AM
"it's about the same as a 357 Mag"

... er well maybe, but there are quite a few differences really...

... substancially lighter bullet... no one shoots a 357 magnum with a 100 - 110 grain bullet, so to put it in perspective... while the 125 grain hollow point 357 mag might be a great man stopper at 5-7 yards, no one would try & shoot people sized animals at 50 -100 yards with a 125 grain 357 mag ( or at least expect a high one shot kill rate )... & people are just not shooting these kinds of targets with a 30 carbine at 7-10 yards

... it is possible to shoot "longer" distances with the 357 mag...maybe with 158 - 180 grain bullets ( because of the better retained energy ), but to put that into perspective in the 30 caliber, you'd probably be around 140 grain 30 carbine bullet... so 1st off, the rifling twist rate of a 30 carbine barrel will not stabilize a 140 grain bullet, it was never designed to...the action will not cycle a cartridge long enough to hold a 140 grain 30 caliber bullet, without stuffing the base of the bullet into the case far enough, that it would result in a reduced powder load, or a highly compacted powder charge, which would likely raise the case pressure high enough to blow the action to pieces...

... I love my little rifle, but some people need to realize, that it was doomed right from the start, by design...

it was designed realistically to pistol specifications, it does not have the rifling twist rate or action strength to follow in it's own footsteps...

... IMO, it is likely ( or should be considered ) the predecessor to all the light semi / full auto carbine rifles we have today... but like the Model "T", it's not the same car as a Ford Mustang... it was just never designed to "hot rod"...

Rimrod
July 13, 2007, 09:51 AM
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/classics/m1_carbine/

The .30 Carbine cartridge was made for the .30 M1 Carbine. The pressure limits would have been set to what the firearm could handle and trying to make it more than it is is foolish at best.

It is a lightweight, simple and handy carbine that shoots a lightweight, simple and handy cartridge. If you want more power you will have to sacrifice that and go to a little heavier weapon such as an SKS Paratrooper model.

... no one shoots a 357 magnum with a 100 - 110 grain bullet...

Then why do the ammo manufacturers make them?

45Marlin carbine
July 13, 2007, 10:00 AM
I was considering the M-1 carbine among others when I bought my Mini-30 (really wanted an M1-A1 or FAL but couldn't find a good deal on used one and new was out of my budget), the carbine is a good design but shouldn't be 'hot rodded' from what I've read. I'm not dissapointed with my M-30 and I've since got a good deal on a Marlin Camp to go with my 1911. So I don't miss the carbine. That Marlin is a good piece of iron. I've thought of selling my Mini since I got it.

Magnum Wheel Man
July 13, 2007, 11:09 AM
Quote:
... no one shoots a 357 magnum with a 100 - 110 grain bullet...

Then why do the ammo manufacturers make them?


OK, that statement was meant for example... but since you took me litterally...

Midway lists 93 different 357 Magnum loadings, 4-5 are 110 grain self defense loadings, 4-5 are less than 110 grain magsafe & other frangibles, a few more are blanks, & I did see one with a 95 grain bullet ( which I was not even aware that anything 100 grain or less was available unless they were frangible loads ), most of the 110 grain bulet loads are listed as unvailble / out of stock, so maybe 1 or 2 are still available... of course I'd like to talk to the person whose favorite deer hunting load is a 110 grain 357 mag... :rolleyes:

Rimrod
July 13, 2007, 10:01 PM
I wasn't trying to rag on you Magnum Wheel Man, I knew there were 110 gr. .357s because I've shot enough of them. I don't know who makes them now, but I wouldn't base availability on Midways current stock.

Ammo & Ballistics II, 2nd edition, lists a Cor-Bon 110 gr .357 with a muzzle velocity of 1500 fps from a 4" vented test barrel. The 110 gr loads for the .30M1 are 1990 fps from a 20" test barrel. It would be interesting to see what the Cor-Bon loads could do out of a longer barrel.

Tom2
July 14, 2007, 11:17 AM
If you can swallow the price, that Winchester hollow point load is supposed to tear up jack and be really effective. Now it is too too expensive for plinking. I know you can get round nose soft point bullets cheap for reloading. You have to be careful, there is some variation in the bullets nose so seating is done carefully to maintain proper overall length. But that is the cheapest way to get more effective ammo. Anyone who is not under military rules should probably not use FMJ for anything but plinking and shooting matches. You get the full advantage of all that muzzle energy when you put in more effective bullets. I would not load hot, the guns are old, the commercial versions are crappy with excess headspace, you might break something, etc. Some light HP bullets are not the proper shape for a carbine load. They are too long and will not function. Others have too much exposed lead which I don't really like, too easy to damage them in handling and loading. Seems the best bullets are being held back by the makers for expensive factory loads.

Crosshair
July 15, 2007, 12:27 AM
There are some guns that can take blue pills all day long. The M1 carbine is not one of them. There is a very good reason why the SAAMI maximum chamber pressure is only 40,000 PSI for the 30 carbine. Simply put, the M1 carbine action is not strong enough to be subject to higher pressures. The case walls and web are not thick enough as well.

pinetree
July 15, 2007, 09:22 AM
Well I have a carbine on order. I have a home in the suburbs of Atlanta, a farm in Alabama and a couple acres on the Alabama River (on a reservoir w/ gators). To me these are great handy little guns with more than enough juice to handle HD, varmints, and plinking. Roughly 967#'s at muzzle and 600#'s at a 100yds is plenty for me. I bought Georgia Arms soft points yesterday. In the three afore mentioned situations, 50yds would be the max. If I need range, then it is one of my hunting rifles or my scout scoped M48.

Also, the carbine fits in with my Springfield GI 1911 (w/ Yost Retro sites) and Camillus Kabar.

I plan on reloading just to save a few $ not to "sup it up". If you want the max get Corbon's DPX.

tjg

OSTRICH
August 20, 2007, 06:37 PM
What would make the widest amount of damage if the gun is only 1 foot away.. 357 or 30 Carbine.. This seems like a simple answer.. Yet I have a 25 dollar bet with a friend on this.

USMCG_HMX1
August 20, 2007, 08:53 PM
Using SP ammo with the M-1 .30 caliber carbine, I'd say the .357 would be a close second place. Someone posted a pic of gelatin that the .30 round just tore up.




Kris

U.S.SFC_RET
August 23, 2007, 08:58 PM
Don't slough off the 30 cal Carbine and don't compare it too readily with the 357 mag. a rifle is a rifle and a pistol is a pistol. The M1 Carbine is a great Home defence gun as it is. I definitely would never want to be in front of one.

T. O'Heir
August 23, 2007, 11:03 PM
"...says M1...Thompson..." There is/was an M1 Thompson SMG. Auto Ordnance made them.
A 110 grain HP with IMR4227 and regular small rifle primers will blow a hole the size of a grapefruit in a ground hog. How much more powerful do you need?
"...Mini-30..." My carbine will shoot circles around any Mini-30 made.

Art Eatman
August 24, 2007, 10:13 AM
I do believe this has drifted far enough away from the opening ideas...

Art