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joshua
June 4, 2007, 10:16 PM
With the PS90 gaining popularity I was wondering how you guys feel about using the 5.7 to defend your home and family. Most guys using this sub gun/carbine have their job dictating the use of the FN P90 or PS90. Would you rather have the ballistics of 221 Fireball or a bigger diameter bullet? This is strictly for defensive purposes so it is not a SHTF/ITEOTWAWKI scenario.

Also post your carbine of choice if you have one and rely on it for defense.

josh

FirstFreedom
June 4, 2007, 10:27 PM
Frankly it's a useless joke of a cartridge in a long gun (except for just fun plinking).

UNLESS it's select-fire. The ones I see for sale are not, so..... The non-military semi-auto versions with the castrated mags are useless as teats on a boar hog, IMO. There's no reason I can see not to go to at least a .223 in a shoulder-fired, nonconcealable weapon.

It's plenty good enough for me to kill large rats with, however. :)

Geronimo45
June 4, 2007, 10:28 PM
I imagine it'd be good enough... I expect that there's considerably less muzzle flash and muzzle blast from the 5.7 than there is from a full-power 5.56 Nato.
Still, I understand that it's a darned loud beastie to fire. I'd prefer the 5.7 Pistol to the rifle in a HD role, myself... just because I'm of the opinion that a pistol's easier to use when you don't have a team of guys backing you up - but to each his own.

Carbine of choice? M1 Carbine, of course.

MDman
June 4, 2007, 10:32 PM
Well I don’t think the .223 has enough punch, so definitely not the 5.7, When it comes to HD I think the shotgun is king.

that being said, I think most people will give up on stealing your TV regardless of what they’ve just been shot with.

kozak6
June 4, 2007, 11:29 PM
Would you feel safe defending your house with a .22 magnum rifle?

The PS90 is way too expensive for me, as is the ammo (which is also rather hard to find).

I'm more of a shotgun guy anyways.

BMARM4
June 4, 2007, 11:31 PM
Does anyone who has answered this thread so far actually own a 5.7? Didn't think so.

I own all three, an AR, a FiveSeven pistol, and a PS90. If you say the 5.7 is not enough gun, you don't know what your talking about.

First, the question is a little too broad. It really depends on the cirmumstances like where you are, are you inside the house or out? Are there family members in adjacent rooms? Is the area where a gun fight is likely to take place open or tight.

If I'm dealing with someone on my property who is shooting from the outside at some distance, then the AR makes sense. If I'm dealing with a threat inside or medium range then I want the PS90. If I'm CCW out and about or in my vehicle 20 rounds in my FiveSeven pistol are hard to beat. Though my CCW is a .45.

Here's the deal, the .223 or 5.6 carries a lot of energy and with most ammo missed shots are going to penetrate many walls. Walls with potential family members behind them. And in the home, an AR is NOT a graceful weapon.

But if the threat is outside and at some distance, say 50 yards or more go with the AR. Actually I take that back. If the threat is behind some cover such as a car or a wall that you are certain no family or friendly is beyond, let them taste .223 or 5.6 slicing through car skin like paper, or a wall like a loaf of bread.

The 5.7 on the other had is designed to fragment on impact with hard surfaces, except for the armor pearcing which you won't have as a citizen anyway. The PS90 sweeps much faser and is much quicker to both aquire the target and get back on for repeat shots. And with the 50 round magazine, you have plenty of those. Oh, and it is deadly accurate out to 200 yards. With light and / or laser mounted on the rails and an Eotec on top, the short pup held near the center of the upper body swings fast and effortless. And don't be fooled, that little bullet (if you have purchased the right ammo) is moving at closer to 2100 fps rather than 1800 as stated earlier.

The FiveSeven pistol. Take 20 rounds of the PS90 ammo, place it in a small CCW with bottom rail for light/laser. But remember, it isn't so much about how much or how big, but where you put it. Make your shots count and you won't need but 1 round.

BMARM4
June 4, 2007, 11:40 PM
"Would you feel safe defending your house with a .22 magnum rifle?

The PS90 is way too expensive for me, as is the ammo (which is also rather hard to find)."

The 5.7 ain't no .22 mag! The PS90 is a little on the costly side, but compared to what? An Ed Brown 1911, no. The ammo is easy for me to find. I can buy off the shelf locally and as much as I want. But I have the RCBS holders and dies and collect my brass and reload. Cuts the price down considerably.

But you are correct...a shotgun is probably the best all around home defense weapon.

mdao
June 5, 2007, 12:04 AM
For my personal usage, there are better options. I personally prefer a AR-15 as it's more versatile, has better a terminal ballistic effect range, and the recovery time difference isn't that big for me.

But, for people with minimal gun experience, I can't think of a better option than a FN PS-90 with an EoTech or Aimpoint. Easy to aim, fast handling, almost non-existent recoil, plenty of ammunition, and reasonably decent ammunition performance. Sure, there are cheaper alternatives that perform almost as well in this role, but the PS-90 is a perfectly good choice.

The 5.7 ain't no .22 mag!

Just about.

The SS197 load shoots a 40 gr V-Max at about 2000-2100 fps. Penetration in gelatin is 9-10" with expansion to ~ .35"
Remington's equivalent .22 Mag load shoots a 40 gr JHP at about 1900 fps. Penetration in gelatin is ~ 10" with expansion to ~ .35".

Source: Brassfetcher.com 5.7x28mm (http://www.brassfetcher.com/SS195%20FMJ%20and%20SS197%20ballistic%20tip%20(bare%20and%20heavy%20clothing).html) Brassfetcher.com .22 Magnum (http://www.brassfetcher.com/22MagnumVariousRifle.html)

There's less penetration than the FBI standards recommend, but perfectly serviceable and not any worse than many premium pistol JHP rounds. When compared to .22 Magnum, 5.7x28mm has centerfire reliability, higher capacity magazines, and pistols/carbines more suited for self defense usage. The Five-Seven and PS-90 make for much better SD tools than the Single Six and 10/22 Magnum Those factors make 5.7 mm a much better self defense cartridge than .22 Magnum.

mikejonestkd
June 5, 2007, 07:55 AM
I am in the same camp as FF on the ' merits' of the 5.7.

It looks like a fun round and the one rifle I have seen shot was nice, but it has no advantage over an easily affordable AR or AK style rifle and is short on terminal performance compared to the 5.56 nato or the 7.62 x 39

Personally I would use an 870 pump with a +2 mag extension...but that's just me. Cheap, effective, tons of energy and battle proven.

joshua
June 5, 2007, 08:22 AM
No doubt that the 5.7 is a fun cartridge to shoot through the PS90. With a $1600 price tag and high cost of ammo, a SBR AR-15 is cheaper. Honestly if I had the money, I'd buy one, but to use for a self defense scenario I think I will stick with my reliable firearms. I usually keep a 45 ACP Colt commander and a S&W 5906 on standby with enough magazines to drive a gang away. I also keep a Mossberg 8 shot loaded in the safe. I do have a carbine and it is a 16" AR. josh

c4igrant
June 5, 2007, 10:14 AM
The PS90 is a fun gun and like them, but it does not compete with an AR. One interesting thing is that the 5.7 ammo now is cheaper in bulk than most of the quality .223 ammo out there. Figure that one out.


C4

Bartholomew Roberts
June 5, 2007, 10:21 AM
Here's the deal, the .223 or 5.6 carries a lot of energy and with most ammo missed shots are going to penetrate many walls. Walls with potential family members behind them. And in the home, an AR is NOT a graceful weapon.

Huh? An AR can shoot a 40gr VMAX around 1,000fps faster than the 5.7... how is that going to result in MORE penetration? Of course if you load up with 62gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw .223, you'll get more penetration - just like 5.7 will shoot through houses handily with the LE-restricted ammo available. In any case, if shooting through walls is a concern, your best bet is not to miss the target.

Tamara
June 5, 2007, 10:56 AM
The 5.7 ain't no .22 mag!

Sorry, but the terminal ballistics say otherwise. Wound cavities don't care how cool-looking the gun was, what Spec Ops teams used them, what science fiction movies they were in, or how much they cost; all the wound cavity cares about is the bullet's weight, construction, diameter, and velocity.

The poster above gave you your best advice in re.: overpenetration.

p99guy
June 5, 2007, 12:28 PM
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1483/20061014009lf0.jpg

And no Barth, the LEO SS190 doesnt "shoot through houses", or exit people generally.far safer than 9mm fmj out of a pistol. ( I have used it.)

Bartholomew Roberts
June 5, 2007, 12:55 PM
And no Barth, the LEO SS190 doesnt "shoot through houses", or exit people generally.far safer than 9mm fmj out of a pistol.

Actually, I had read of a friendly fire incident where SS190 passed through a garage and injured an officer outside the garage during an arrest. I believe it is over at Tactical Forums in the archives; but it has been a while so I may be foggy on the details. That is what sparked the comment.

However, considering that SS190 won't penetrate 12" in gel, you are probably right that it won't penetrate far in a house either. My main point was just that choosing the type of ammo plays an important role in penetration.

Manedwolf
June 5, 2007, 01:20 PM
You should practice a lot with any gun you think you might use for defense.

And practicing with the PS90 could make you go bankrupt. :eek:

One interesting thing is that the 5.7 ammo now is cheaper in bulk than most of the quality .223 ammo out there.

Like what sort of prices? I can still get Guatemalan 5.56 pretty cheap, and that's excellent, hot stuff.

Medula Oblongata
June 5, 2007, 02:48 PM
First of all, the SS197 round from a 5" pistol is faster by several hundred feet per second than than the 22 magnum from a 26" rifle barrel. When fired from the 16" carbine its nearly 700 feet per second faster.

Second of all, the FBI 12" standard isn't met by a great number of 'premium' factory self-defense loadings INCLUDING the Federal EFMJ and the Remington Golden Sabre (in .45 ACP).

Thirdly, a shotgun is quite useful in the home...but only when 0 or larger shot is used. Defending yourself with cheapo Wal-Mart #7 1/2 birdshot is stooooopid (notice all the 'o's'?) as it will not penetrate the human torso or skull. Don't believe me? Read the "box o truth" testing on the subject. No, I won't post the URL, do some research yourselves..Although judging by some of the responses here that is an ability some lack; so I better post it or the retards won't be able to find it. Here you go:http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm Scroll to the bottom of the page, or better yet, read the whole site. It'll dispell a lot of the nonsense that some of you believe as gospel.

And the final point I will make is thus: Don't believe anything you read on a gun forum. Its as pointless as going to a tree huggers website to learn about global warming. Think for yourselves and don't believe anything unless you have personally researched it or the findings are consistant with what you know to be true.

Oh yeah, and one more thing. Having put a 5.7x28 round into a living, breathing badguy; the round is pretty good. I choose to carry it over the .40 caliber typically worn in my department. I like having 60 rounds at my fingertips, and I like the controlled recoil.

mdao
June 5, 2007, 03:18 PM
First of all, the SS197 round from a 5" pistol is faster by several hundred feet per second than than the 22 magnum from a 26" rifle barrel. When fired from the 16" carbine its nearly 700 feet per second faster.

I don't buy that, and neither do chronograph results.

|---------------P90-------|----------PS90---------|------FiveseveN----|
SS197 |----(1950 fps)-----------(2100 fps)-------------(1700 fps)-----|

FN PS90 firing SS197 at bare gelatin. Shot impacted at 2054 ft/sec
FN PS90 firing SS197 at heavy clothing. Shot impacted at 2063 ft/sec
FN 5.7 firing SS197 at heavy clothing. Shot impacted at 1932 ft/sec

With a 40 gr bullet for 5.7x28mm does ~2100 fps out of a rifle, ~1900 fps out of a pistol. The standard .22 WMR load is 40 gr at 1910 fps out of a rifle, 1550 fps out of a pistol. That's an advantage of ~200 fps when 5.7x28mm is compared to .22 WMR in rifles and ~ 450 fps in pistols.

So, 5.7x28mm out of a pistol is dead even with .22 WMR in a rifle, and 5.7x28mm out of the PS-90 is ~ 200 FPS ahead. This is not "faster by several hundred feet per second" or "nearly 700 feet per second faster."

And as noted before, gelatin testing doesn't show much difference at all in penetration/expansion between SS197 and controlled expansion .22 WMR loads.

Webleymkv
June 5, 2007, 03:26 PM
First of all, the SS197 round from a 5" pistol is faster by several hundred feet per second than than the 22 magnum from a 26" rifle barrel. When fired from the 16" carbine its nearly 700 feet per second faster.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7_x_28_mm_cartridge

Have a look at the ballistics. It's got about the same muzzle energy as most major caliber pistols when fired from the P90 (except for the rather puny SS193 load). When fired from the FiveSeven's 5" shorter barrel however, I suspect that the ballistics will suffer greatly. I can see this cartridge being somewhat useful in a carbine or submachinegun, but not from a pistol. For a high velocity round, I'd prefer a hot loaded 9mm, .357 Sig, 9x25, 10mm, 7.62x25, or one of the various Magnum Revolvers due to the increased weight and energy from a handgun.

Thirdly, a shotgun is quite useful in the home...but only when 0 or larger shot is used. Defending yourself with cheapo Wal-Mart #7 1/2 birdshot is stooooopid (notice all the 'o's'?) as it will not penetrate the human torso or skull. Don't believe me? Read the "box o truth" testing on the subject.

People and wall boards are quite different. All that the Box O' Truth article offers is penetration tests in an irrelevant media and unconfirmed anecdotal evidence.

No, I won't post the URL, do some research yourselves..Although judging by some of the responses here that is an ability some lack; so I better post it or the retards won't be able to find it.

Scroll to the bottom of the page, or better yet, read the whole site. It'll dispell a lot of the nonsense that some of you tards believe as gospel.


Wow, you must not want to be very popular. Just what did you hope to add to the discussion with such remarks?

And the final point I will make is thus: Don't believe anything you read on a gun forum. Its as pointless as going to a tree huggers website to learn about global warming.

You seem to have some awfully strong opinions that you've presented as fact. Maybe you should take a bit of your own advice.

Oh yeah, and one more thing. Having put a 5.7x28 round into a living, breathing badguy; the round is pretty good.

Think for yourselves and don't believe anything unless you have personally researched it or the findings are consistant with what you know to be true

Yes, these last two statements are out of order. However, I think perhaps we should all apply the second to the first. Let us stop for a moment and remember that we're all posting anonymously on the internet. Claims of personal exploits are rather hard to prove when they are made anonymously.

Joe the Redneck
June 5, 2007, 03:55 PM
5.7 is the shape of things to come.

Can you imagine the arguments in the future, "Get yer'self a REAL gun boy, You need a 9mm, that dang ol' 5.7 ain't no good fer nothing."

Meh? Sounds like change. Big hole, little recoil, sound good to me. But I'm a sissy.

Peace
Joe

Manedwolf
June 5, 2007, 04:06 PM
It'll dispell a lot of the nonsense that some of you tards believe as gospel.

Oh, yeah, that's real friendly. Good first impression there!

Don't believe anything you read on a gun forum.

Quite true. Because on the internet, you don't know if the guy claiming to have shot criminals with the thing is really just an airsoft kid posting from their parents' basement. ;)

FirstFreedom
June 5, 2007, 04:11 PM
I can see this cartridge being somewhat useful in a carbine or submachinegun, but not from a pistol.

Oddly enough, I find exactly the opposite is true. (except for the part about submachine gun).

From a PISTOL, it is useful, as it puts an SBA-piercing-capable weapon into a *concealable* unit. Unlike standard handgun rounds.

In a non-concealable LONG GUN, it doesn't matter whether the barrel is 11, 14, 16, or 30 - a carbine is a carbine is a carbine. As long as you're going to use a CARBINE/LONGGUN during which the whole world at large can see that you're carrying a gun, then why on earth would you limit yourself to a round that is puny by comparison with the already somewhat anemic (arguably), that being the .223/5.56? The answer of course is, to reduce recoil and muzzle blast. The problem with that is, there is absolutely no need to reduce the recoil and muzzle blast from the already-quite-tame-in-that-department .223/5.56, in semi-auto form. So you're needlessly handicapping yourself.

Now, in full-auto mode, it's a different story, because the P90 is touted as being *UBER-controllable* in full-auto, as opposed to merely "highly" controllable in an M4 type weapon. The uber-controllability allows one to hose a target repeatedly with pinpoint accuracy, which works well in degrading soft body armor with each successive shot. You can just focus in and stay on the heart/lungs of the enemy wearing SBA, and keep it right on target until the SBA falters, using pinpoint precision like the controllability of the old gangster's typewriter, the Thompson. So it's marginally useful if yours is full auto..anyone on here got a full-auto one?

In addition to the full-auto reasoning, the 50 round capacity instead of the 30 round capacity of a standard mag of an M4 type weapon can help in an intense engagement which is very short-lived, in which a mag change could take time and get you killed. 20 more rounds is well, 20 more rounds. Now, again, do those for sale to US have those extra 20 rounds? No, they castrated them. Castrated them needlessly under the law, I might add. So the two features which make the P90 potentially useful are BOTH negated in the civilian version.

So now we're back to teats on a boar hog. $1,600 teats mind you.

Now, the only conceivable reason for the usefulness of the semi-auto, 30-round civilian version (other than pure fun or coolness, which are indeed an end in themselves), is if there were some off-the wall scenario where you wanted a "semi-concealable" high capacity longgun, which for example, could conceal under a trench coat with a shoulder strap holding the carbine in the armpit area, as with a shoulder holster, except on the strong side, ready to swing into action at any moment. The small bullpup configuration would allow this in such a highly unusual, and likely illegal-to-carry situation. But nevertheless, it IS a justification for the gun I suppose. :)

It is absolutely unnecessary to analyze the comparison between .22 mag and 5.7x28 in order to make the above analysis. Regardless of how relatively close, an M4 or other carbine, bullpup or otherwise, chambered in .223/5.56 or similar (7.62x39) blows them both away, and is equally controllable in semi auto form, for all intents and purposes. IMO.

The FiveseveN OTOH, is highly useful, potentially, for the reasons mentioned, in my view anyhow.

p99guy
June 5, 2007, 06:52 PM
Now, again, do those for sale to US have those extra 20 rounds? No, they castrated them. Castrated them needlessly under the law, I might add. So the two features which make the P90 potentially useful are BOTH negated in the civilian version. -FirstFreedom

The only 30 shot mag I have ever seen came with the gun, and it changed right back to a 50 shot as soon as I changed out the floorplate. The 50 rounder is the only one you can buy...no neutering going on. (where did you get your info??lol)

and what is this about "degrading soft body armor with each successive shot "....thats not how it works(its not a sandblaster)
it works the same as a AR15 on SBA...

FirstFreedom
June 5, 2007, 07:11 PM
Oops, I may sit corrected on the capacity.....when they first came out and I checked on them, they were castrated to 30 rounds for some reason. Now they are 50 like the original?

On the degrading SBA, yes it's a phenomenon that is real. But it's ONLY necessary if the first shot doesn't punch through. With traditional SBA, the 5.7 works fine first shot, just like the .223 - not a problem. But against some of the new badass technologies, it's not going to on the first shot - neither cartridge.

But successive hosings of a small area on the SBA will have a cumulative degrading/destructive effect, allowing ultimate penetration. May take 2-3 or more shots with a .223, for example (which is *harder* to hold on a SMALL) area, or may take 3-5 or more shots, for example, from a 5.7 (which is *easier* to hold on a small area in FA). Just depends on the armor & technology the enemy is using - that technology is changing all the time, and at in *increasing* rate even, it seems. For example, against something like dragonskin, the 5.7 ain't gonna cut it with just a few rounds. But hose a 3-4" circle with 10-20 rounds on full auto, and you'll likely defeat it. So it is indeed a lot like a sandblaster. In fact, I thought that was one of the theories behind the P90; one of its raisons d'etre. Also for example, against things such as bullet-"proof" glass - hosing a small concentrated target until it's defeated by the cumulative effect. Again, without FA, notsomuch gonna matter - could be done just as fast - in fact faster - with a more powerful round.

Webleymkv
June 5, 2007, 07:15 PM
Oddly enough, I find exactly the opposite is true. (except for the part about submachine gun).

From a PISTOL, it is useful, as it puts an SBA-piercing-capable weapon into a *concealable* unit. Unlike standard handgun rounds.



I was not clear enough in my original post. Yes, from a military or perhaps police standpoint I suppose that the armor piercing capabilities maybe somewhat useful in specialized roles (though there are probably better tools for the job such as the .22 Reed Express or a short barreled rifle). However, for civilian purposes, I don't see much point. We're not able to readily get the armor-piercing ammo, so we've just shot the whoe advantage in the rear. Also, I can't imagine that the round would have a whole lot of "oomph" left after it penetrates the body armor as it's not exactly a hand-cannon to begin with. Besides that, the occasion that the civilian would need an armor-piercing round is extremely rare. One may argue capacity, but let's not forget that many other pistols can accept extended magazines that hold more than 20 rounds. I don't really view the capacity as a huge advantage anyway because the average civilian isn't all that likely to need 20 rounds (I feel perfectly comfortable with the six in my revolver). The carbine, however, is very short and handy and delivers satisfactory ballistics with very little recoil without as much overpenetration risk as most of the more powerful rifle rounds. Since "defence of your home and family" was part of the OP's post, I presume we're looking at this from a home-defence standpoint. I thik that we can all agree that for use indoors, a shorter gun is best and that is where I see the usefulness of the PS90. Personally, I have no plans to run out and buy the pistol or carbine as I already have both pistols and longarms that meet my needs just as well if not better.

Plink
June 5, 2007, 07:27 PM
Second of all, the FBI 12" standard isn't met by a great number of 'premium' factory self-defense loadings INCLUDING the Federal EFMJ and the Remington Golden Sabre (in .45 ACP).

And that's a good reason to avoid those loads, or any that perform like them.

As for the 5.7, it seems that THR had a thread about them and someone posted a picture of a shot into raw meat. The NON-expanding bullet only penetrated about 7 inches if I remember right. Not very inspiring for self defense. Now in a full auto with no recoil, yow!

Just remember, fair is fair. Sure the 5.7 guns have little recoil, but if it takes half a dozen rounds to put a perp down, he has had the time to return a half a dozen rounds of his own. No thank you.

FirstFreedom
June 5, 2007, 07:29 PM
OK, good point Webley - I see what you're saying.

But, it's a pretty simple matter to make up some hardcast high-tin & antimony pointy .22 bullets that will do what you want in penetrating lev I, IIa, or II SBA (maybe IIIa even), regardless of what you find off-the-shelf.

Slugthrower
June 5, 2007, 07:47 PM
"Don't believe anything you read on a gun forum. Its as pointless as going to a tree huggers website to learn about global warming. Think for yourselves and don't believe anything unless you have personally researched it or the findings are consistant with what you know to be true." Medula Oblongata.

Sounds like good advice to me. Also sounds like MO listens to Neal Boortz too. So even if he loves the 5.7 and has a bias for it. Maybe one should test out the pistol. Granted it isn't all that impressive a handgun and we know that shot placement is king. There is merit in trying something new and different, even if that advice comes from a police chief from Nebraska, whom likes to lord his implied brain power over the lesser civilians that he serves. Isn't that right Ryan, I mean Medula Oblongata? ;)

Webleymkv
June 5, 2007, 07:48 PM
But, it's a pretty simple matter to make up some hardcast high-tin & antimony pointy .22 bullets that will do what you want in penetrating lev I, IIa, or II SBA (maybe IIIa even), regardless of what you find off-the-shelf.

I'm not sure about you, but I tend to shy away from reloads for SD (mine are for hunting and practice only).

MDman
June 5, 2007, 09:52 PM
just something to think about. If it doesnt kick on your end, whats it doing on the other end?

BMARM4
June 5, 2007, 10:14 PM
5.7 invented as a carry weapon for support personnel, ie defensive. Various rounds were introduced for various task. More to come. P90 also developed to be "Urban, close quarters" where walls may hide friendlies. Round is designed to fragment, not expand. In walls, this means reduce overpenetration. In tissue, this means one entry and multiple cavity wounds, and no exit. In other words, blood loss. Which unless you deliver a fatal blow, in which what round you use doesn't really matter, blood loss or shock stops the fight.

5.6 is an offensive weapon. Unless you use some special load, will many times overpenetrate, which is not a good thing for home "defense".

So, you asked the question, which in our individual opinions makes the better home defense round/gun. Owning both, I gave you my opinion and stand by it. If you have both, practice clearing your home with the AR. I think if your honest, you will find the task awkward in certain spots of your house. Now do the same thing with the PS90. A world of difference in my opinion. The round is really mute in my opinion.

But honestly, I don't / won't use either for home defense. I prefer a Spingfield XD-45 with tactical light and laser and Black Hills ammo.

joshua
June 5, 2007, 10:16 PM
Saturating an area of armor to defeat it? If I have to put 3 to 6 slugs into the same area with a semi auto weapon then I may as well aim for the head, it is a bigger target than 4 inches. If they stand still then they must be well disciplined criminals. :D To tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to be shot by anything even if it was only a 22 short. Lots of dead bodies at the morgue with death caused by rimfire 22s. josh

10 MickeyMouse
June 5, 2007, 10:48 PM
Here's the deal, the .223 or 5.6 carries a lot of energy and with most ammo missed shots are going to penetrate many walls. Walls with potential family members behind them. And in the home, an AR is NOT a graceful weapon

Energy does not equal penetration. 5.56mm projectiles are less likely to penetrate residential structures than most handgun rounds. As for the AR not being graceful in the HD role, one simply needs to learn how to manuever in CQB scenarios with a longarm. A shorty AR is not much longer than a PS90.

Finally no, I don't think the 5.7x28mm is a viable defensive cartridge-especially when one considers how much more punch you can get in a package roughly the same size as a PS90. As for the Five-seveN, I'd rather have a grendal P-30; similar power with 10 more rounds. Of course, I wouldn't choose either for HD. That's a job for my 11-87 Police.

Small caliber rifles cause very traumatic wounds because of the velocity; this phenomenon of ballistic devastation starts to happen just over 2,000 FPS. Handguns do not have enough velocity to create the nasty temporary cavities and all those lovely things that go along with hydrostatic shock, so they rely on crushing and tearing tissue with larger bullets. The problem with the 5.7 is that it basically offers the worst of both worlds; it takes that small caliber projectile and drives it at a velocity too low to impart the nasty wound characteristics associated with rifle cartridges.

So, you asked the question, which in our individual opinions makes the better home defense round/gun. Owning both, I gave you my opinion and stand by it. If you have both, practice clearing your home with the AR. I think if your honest, you will find the task awkward in certain spots of your house. Now do the same thing with the PS90. A world of difference in my opinion.

Better than either:
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/PLR.jpg

The round is really mute in my opinion.
Funny, I find both the 5.7mm and 5.56mm to be quite loud. :p

Manedwolf
June 6, 2007, 02:21 AM
The only reason I can think of not to use a PLR-16 like that in a house is that if you don't have ear protection on, you're likely to LOSE your hearing.

Those things are punishingly L-O-U-D even outdoors!

c4igrant
June 6, 2007, 08:08 AM
You should practice a lot with any gun you think you might use for defense.

And practicing with the PS90 could make you go bankrupt.

Quote:
One interesting thing is that the 5.7 ammo now is cheaper in bulk than most of the quality .223 ammo out there.

Like what sort of prices? I can still get Guatemalan 5.56 pretty cheap, and that's excellent, hot stuff.

Guat is not quality ammo (sorry). Mil-spec ball (XM193/M855) is quality ammo and runs around $400 a case. One thousand rounds of 5.7 can be had for about $320.



C4

Tamara
June 6, 2007, 09:19 AM
it takes that small caliber projectile and drives it at a velocity too low

Shot your .223 pistol over a chrono? I'm guessing "No."

FirstFreedom
June 6, 2007, 09:38 AM
If I have to put 3 to 6 slugs into the same area with a semi auto weapon then I may as well aim for the head, it is a bigger target than 4 inches.

This is an excellent point Joshua. Dang, and here I was stretching to prop up the justification for the rifle - well I tried. :)

joshua
June 6, 2007, 09:43 AM
I've chronoed 223 in 14" and 11.5" barrels. My results with 55 grain bullets were 2700 fps for the 14" and about 2500 fps for the 11.5", that's being modest with loads just starting to get warm. The fireball with certain powders in a short barreled 223 is nice to see at night. :D I've blasted prairie dogs with a 14" barreled 223 out to 300 yards. josh

Tamara
June 6, 2007, 09:47 AM
My results with 55 grain bullets were 2700 fps for the 14" and about 2500 fps for the 11.5",

So out of the PLR's 9.2" tube you'd be looking at, what? 2300ish?

Manedwolf
June 6, 2007, 09:51 AM
Guat is not quality ammo (sorry). Mil-spec ball (XM193/M855) is quality ammo and runs around $400 a case. One thousand rounds of 5.7 can be had for about $320.


I think it's plenty quality for me. But then, I have a 5.56 AK that doesn't have the delicate constitution of the AR platform. ;)
As with all surplus, you have to look at it. Some of the Guatemalan is shiny and excellent, I get 1997 and up lots. Some of the older stuff went through a hurricane and looks like a corroded battery.

And I also get Radway Green SS109/M855, last order was $167 for 720 rounds.

joshua
June 6, 2007, 10:25 AM
Manedwolf, this thread is to put the 5.7 under the spotlight and not to criticize the AR platform. :D josh

10 MickeyMouse
June 6, 2007, 12:23 PM
Shot your .223 pistol over a chrono? I'm guessing "No."

I'm at work, so I'll have to edit with exact numbers when I get home, but IIRC 55 gr. Federal (L.C.) was about 2,600 FPS and my 40 gr. V-max handloads were over 3,100.

FirstFreedom
June 6, 2007, 12:31 PM
Say what? From a 7.5" bbl? Hrmmmmm. :skepticalsmiley:

But then, I have a 5.56 AK that doesn't have the delicate constitution of the AR platform

Oh, now that's a low blow, MW. :)

Manedwolf
June 6, 2007, 12:39 PM
:cool:

;)

10 MickeyMouse
June 6, 2007, 12:42 PM
Say what? From a 7.5" bbl? Hrmmmmm. :skepticalsmiley:

9.2"

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/plr16.html

FirstFreedom
June 6, 2007, 12:52 PM
Interesting.... 9.2" .... and that claims, with 55 gr M193, it gets 2,600 fps with .223 and 800 m/s with 5.56 - that's 2,625 fps. Just what you said.

3,100 with 40 grain v-max is sure impressive.

What does the P90's 28 grainer get from a 16", and from a 10.2" bbl?

jhgreasemonkey
June 6, 2007, 12:55 PM
Personaly for my preferences that is on the small side. Punching small high speen holes isnt my idea of a good man stopper. Since we are in the rifle section I wont go into my preference for shotgun for hd or a good handgun like a .44 mag. A good .308 semi AR or even the new ruger ranch carbine in 6.8spc. Or how about a remington 750 carbine in .35 whelen with a ten round mag. :D That'll do the trick.

10 MickeyMouse
June 6, 2007, 05:32 PM
OK, now that I'm home, the Chronograph results for my PLR are:

Federal American Eagle 55 gr. ball: 2581 FPS avg for 40 rounds

40 grain Blitzking/30.0 grs. H335: 3137 FPS avg. for 20 rounds

40 grain V-max/24.0 grs. IMR 4198: 2976 FPS avg. for 20 rounds

These same loads ran out of my 24" Howa M-1500 at 3267, 3841 and 3630 FPS, respectively.

From my 16" Armalite M-15 carbine the ball ammo averaged 2972 FPS and the 40 grain Blitkings got 3,736 FPS.

As an aside, 30 grains H335 is a bit hot and do not recommend that load. Anyone who chooses to try it does so at their own risk.

mons-meg
June 6, 2007, 06:48 PM
I thought the original question wasn't whether the AR or FN was better, but rather if the PS-90 was *adequate* for home defense. Off the cuff after firing a couple mags through one, I'd say, unequivocally, probably. ;) Easy to control, etc. etc.

Also remember the original P90 was designed around the PDW concept, aka
"fits-in-the-cockpit-with-me-so-if-I-get-shot-down-over-turkijurkistan-I-won't-be-stuck-with-just-my-pistol"

It's an upgrade over a pistol...on that we can ALL agree, hopefully.

john paul
June 6, 2007, 07:08 PM
my 5-7 punches holes in the yard critters that i point it at. that's all i ask of it. it also rests on my nightstand for after dark problems. how many after dark problems come equipped with sba anyway?

Syntax360
June 6, 2007, 07:25 PM
I absolutely wouldn't trust it. This thread has been done to death. To each his own...

BunkerBuster
June 7, 2007, 12:55 AM
ETA: IT is really upto the shooter. What is suitable.

joshua
June 7, 2007, 04:08 AM
It's an upgrade over a pistol...on that we can ALL agree, hopefully.

Amen! Brother! :D josh