PDA

View Full Version : CMP...What's the point?


azsixshooter
June 1, 2007, 01:18 AM
I had always been under the impression that the Civilian Marksmanship Program was designed to provide really great deals on halfway decent rifles. I pictured them beat up, but usable.

I just went to their site and saw that old, junky M-1 Carbines are going for like $495. That seems quite a bit higher than I would have thought an old rifle like that would go for. What's the deal? Are collectors inflating the prices or something? I wouldn't pay over $300 for a rifle like that, personally. For $495 I'd rather wait a couple more paychecks and buy something new.

Maybe I'm wrong, I hope I'm missing something here. When I was a kid I remember reading about the CMP in some Bradford Angier / Colonel Townsend Whelen book and thought what a great program, it's probably long since been terminated. Then, through the NRA's American Rifleman magazine I saw that it was still in effect.

I was bummed at how high the cost was. Especially considering all the stuff you have to send them and how the availability sucks and you have to spend a lot of time ordering or watching for something to become available.

p99guy
June 1, 2007, 07:04 AM
go look at gunbroker and other online gun auction sites at what original "old junky" M1 Carbines are going for.....if you want a 300.00 G.I. M1 Carbine your going to have to find a time machine and send your self back to about 1977 (when they were 300-350, they have never been cheap)
CMP will have no trouble what so ever selling every carbine it has.

Manedwolf
June 1, 2007, 07:56 AM
I just went to their site and saw that old, junky M-1 Carbines are going for like $495. That seems quite a bit higher than I would have thought an old rifle like that would go for. What's the deal? Are collectors inflating the prices or something? I wouldn't pay over $300 for a rifle like that, personally. For $495 I'd rather wait a couple more paychecks and buy something new.

Heh. You're not ever going to touch one, then. You are aware that said "old, junky carbines" go for $800 and up in any gun shop, right?

They're valuable because they're not only useful, but because of their history. Right now, they're selling Inlands, but the ones made by Rock-Ola and IBM will probably go for even more.

HorseSoldier
June 1, 2007, 10:50 AM
I haven't been to the CMP South Store since the carbines went on sale, but last time I was there, they had a couple sitting on the counter while I was handing over my about-to-be-purchased Danish Garand for boxing up. Both examples I saw were extremely nice by gun show standards. I've heard that once the carbines hit the racks they were like the Garands -- lot of variation in quality within the "service grade" designation they all got, some very very nice ones, some not so nice.

Anyway, (barely) under $500 is a pretty nice price tag for a USGI carbine these days, as others have noted.

It should also be noted that the CMP is not the old DCM program, which was government sponsored and did not have to cover its operating costs. If I recall correctly, the Peoples Republic of Massachussetts' Commissar for Highway Safety, Ted Kennedy, spearheaded the effort to kill the DCM back in the Clinton years. As a sort of compromise, the CMP was created as a corporate entity that had to be self-financing, but which was allowed to distribute old lend-lease weapons and such, which would otherwise be illegal for reimportation to the US.

While their prices are not dirt cheap, CMP is selling Garands and M1 carbines are well below their gunshow costs, which I think is commendable. I've been quite happy with the two Garands I've purchased from them, and thing I got a pretty good deal in each case on supposedly "junky" field grades.

hdawson228
June 1, 2007, 12:15 PM
My CMP M1 Garand ("service grade") is in great shape. I bght it last Sep for $550. It was a
Greek return and has what appears to be a brand new barrel and gas cylinder assy. All other parts seem to be matching USGI numbers. There are a few minor dings in the stock, which to me shows some history. I hope to get a carbine later this year. Check out the history of CMP and it's mission at www.odcmp.com :cool:

rellascout
June 1, 2007, 12:24 PM
M1 Carbines are highly sought after. It is very hard to find a USGI for less than $500.

I own a IBM that I paid about $450 for a while back. Some of the CMP guns will be deals other due to nice condition others will not but either way it is a fair price for a rifle with some history that is not being currently produced in the same quality.

The M1 carbine is a great gun. Fun to shoot and easy to handle. Check on out if you can.

ursavus.elemensis
June 1, 2007, 12:50 PM
well, I'm sure they'll sell out of all the M! carbines that they offer, but hey, there are 300 million people in this country and you can probably sell a certain amount of anything to enough people to sell out. You coild probably offer buckets of rocks and find enough people to feel that they "must" have one to sell out your whole stock. The point is that the ones they were describing and selling were no way worth that kind of money to me. I looked at the web site, considered the issues and decided that I could "wait a couple more paychecks and buy something new." If I am going to spend $500 on something, I want it to look new, or be a true collector's grade piece. These things are fine for just one thing: taking them out and shooting them. In the condition that these things are in, you could easily skip this offer and not feel bad about saving yourself $500. Then, go and buy some other rifle, new or used and get a lot better condition for the same money and still have a rifle primarily intended for shooting. My nephew has an M1 carbine that my brother-in-law gave him which came from original uncirculated U.S. Army stock, and it is a beautiful specimen. Perfect condition although they take it shooting often. Compare their rifle to these beat to hell and back things that the CMP is selling, and I'd much rather save a little more cash, and get an AR-15 than get one of these beat up M1 carbines.

BUSTER51
June 1, 2007, 01:02 PM
you want one you better get it now and don't worry about the price because it's only going to go up in the future.;)

hdawson228
June 1, 2007, 02:26 PM
To the OP. You keep mentioning how beat up the CMP carbines are. Have you looked at and held them personally? The descriptions by CMP are very conservative about the condition. Note: There will only be "service grade" available. In other words, issue grade from the Army. :cool:

Manedwolf
June 1, 2007, 02:29 PM
My nephew has an M1 carbine that my brother-in-law gave him which came from original uncirculated U.S. Army stock, and it is a beautiful specimen. Perfect condition although they take it shooting often. Compare their rifle to these beat to hell and back things that the CMP is selling, and I'd much rather save a little more cash, and get an AR-15 than get one of these beat up M1 carbines.

I'm gonna hazard a guess here that your family isn't one to have much experience with investments... ;)

Reminds me of the guy who sold me an "old" minty WWII Soviet Tokarev TT-33 for less than $200 because he wanted to buy a "new" Hi-Point with the money...

hksigwalther
June 1, 2007, 08:34 PM
Eh, I'd sell of any and all of my ARs before I'd sell off my CMP Garand - born Springfield/March 1945. Worn, a few dings, VAR barrel, some minor Beretta parts but shoots like a dream. The ARs are just passing through history. They'll never see combat or be put into service for country. The CMP surplus guns ARE history.

iamkris
June 1, 2007, 08:39 PM
I just went to their site and saw that old, junky M-1 Carbines are going for like $495. That seems quite a bit higher than I would have thought an old rifle like that would go for.

Compare their rifle to these beat to hell and back things that the CMP is selling, and I'd much rather save a little more cash, and get an AR-15 than get one of these beat up M1 carbines.

Dang -- why can't I find these guys when they sell off their "old junky rifles" so I can pay what they think they're worth?

I only seem to find educated sellers...

Limeyfellow
June 1, 2007, 08:45 PM
The CMP has done a good job of limiting the mass release of US surplus and stopping them appearing in everyshop for dirt cheap like what happened in the 60s with the M1903. They control howmany can be released and to whom rather than say an importer bringing in half a million foreign surplus rifles and releasing them on the market to anyone who wants them.

There is also a high demand for US surplus, since people like to buy their country's firearms nowadays and most got traded decades off in the past where they were cut up and sporterised as back then it was alot cheaper than buying a new gun.

Add to that after so many decades that they are finally coming to an end and about every country that had been given old US surplus have about returned it and its been sold on.

Alas I don't qualify for the CMP not being a citizen. Grumble grumble.

stolivar
June 1, 2007, 09:59 PM
around here at the gun shows M1 carbines have been selling for around $350 to $450.....

and in good shape




steve

FirstFreedom
June 2, 2007, 12:15 AM
Those are probably Universals or Plainfields, not true M1 carbines...

Dang -- why can't I find these guys when they sell off their "old junky rifles" so I can pay what they think they're worth?

I only seem to find educated sellers...

Yep, +1.

azsixshooter
June 2, 2007, 01:55 AM
Thanks for all the replies. I guess that due to collector inflation / historic value I won't be getting one of these carbines. I just think that price is too much for what you're getting. I mean, if you strip away the historic value / collectible value they really don't seem like such wonderful rifles. Now, I don't mean to upset anyone who is a big fan of the M1 Carbine, but I read the article on them in the NRA's American Rifleman and they didn't exactly paint it in such a great light. I got from that article that at first a lot of infantrymen were running each other over to get one due to the Carbine being lighter and having higher capacity, but that they later found that the weapon had some real limitations and weren't as effective as they hoped they'd be.

If you're a collector and think that ~$500 is a steal for one of these rifles then great, I hope you can buy them by the case for that price. For me, I'd rather buy a couple of SKS rifles and a good cache of ammo for less than that. I just want a good, inexpensive battle rifle to go out and shoot a few times a year then clean and stick it in the safe. I shoot my 10/22 almost every day and to me it's more fun than anything.

In my original post, I basically just want to know what is the charter or point of the CMP? Is it really to make surplus rifles available to good, honest people or are they some kind of "pseudo-government-corporation" just trying to turn a buck. Thanks to all of you who answered that question for me. It seems that they are a good organization providing rifles at below inflated collector value. That's good and I will support that organization, even though I don't see myself buying any of those over-priced antiques anytime in the near future.

Heheheh, just kidding calling them "over-priced antiques" guys, I'm only joking. Everything I've read about the original M1 Garands is very positive and if they weren't so expensive I'd like to buy one. As it stands, I'll just hope that I help some old-lady cross the street or something and she'll leave me her dead husband's old M1!

If you were in the war or something and carried one of these Carbines and it saved your life, then I understand why you would think that ~$500 is far below the value of this rifle. It's too bad collectors inflate everything beyond their real worth though. It'd be nice to get something more affordable so I could buy more ammo to practice with. In the end, I'm happy that the CMP is around but I wish they had better prices. I guess I'm just a poor system admin. Wish I had enough money to consider $500 for a rifle like that a good deal.

Well, again, thanks for all the great replies.

Socrates
June 2, 2007, 02:08 AM
AZSixshooter:

I'm kind of with you on this one. I don't know if this is true of some of those 'old guns', but, in the 1980's, my friend had two pride and joys, forged action M1A's. Even then, it was hard to find them. Maybe someone could help me out, but,
you might find that the quality of the parts on the M1's, perhaps forged, not cast, are not even avaliable today, hence the high price.

I do remember folks actually buying Chinese forged actions, pretty much remachining them, and building on those actions...Why? Nothing but cast avaliable in the US...

Dr. S

rellascout
June 2, 2007, 08:54 AM
The M1 carbine is like any other collectible gun. It is worth what people are willing to pay. CMP is selling them at a very fair price. They have import and Greek marking, if my memory is correct, so they will not be as collectible as cleaner versions but they certainly will hold their value. You have to consider that the costs to import them, clean them up and then sell them. Plus they use the money to support their efforts to promote the great hobby of shooting.

To me the M1 carbine is a just a great looking fun rifle to shoot. They are thing of beauty like the 1911 or a the M1A. They are a piece of history that you can shoot. They are a great light weight rifle that fires a very manageable 30 cal round. They are a great rifle to teach people to shoot with. More pop the 22LR so it gets people closer to the larger calibers. They are a nice step up from the 22. You can find new commercial versions of the M1 by Auto Ordnance but they are more expensive and not built as well.

The workmanship on these old guns is hard to find in todays market. Most guns these days are not produced to these standards and when they are you are paying a lot more than $500. Comparing them to the SKS is simply not a fair comparison. The SKS is a very crude rifle in comparison.

As far as the the effectiveness of the weapon you will find people on both sides of the debate. Check out the box of truth article. In the end every gun I own is not for self defense.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

When you think about it $500 is not a ton of money in the world of guns today. If you have not shot one you should try to get your hands on one. They are a lot of fun and after shooting one you might not think that $500 is so bad price to pay even for one of CMPs old junky ones. ;)

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/6383135634/de2cc3754340ca5621cbc9b253260c47.jpg?aa=20070602063730

azsixshooter
June 2, 2007, 09:17 AM
Nice post, and thank you for that pic. It's a beautiful gun, but I still think that the price is simply over-inflated by collectors who are willing to pay more than what the gun is worth today just for it's collectible value or sentimental value.

Why isn't it comparable to an SKS? Are you going to be making 300 yard shots with the M1 Carbine that the SKS isn't going to make? I doubt if either would do well at that range. You can't honestly say that an SKS is a bad gun for it's price. I think the quality --> cost ratio is much better with an SKS than an M1 Carbine. Like I said, I just want a solid battle rifle to shoot a few times a year. What does the M1 Carbine bring to that party that the SKS doesn't, except a higher price tag and therefore less ammo to play with.

If you admire the workmanship, quality, etc of the M1 then I respect that. I'm that way with guns and knives too. I absolutely love my Puma White Hunter and it was more expensive than an SKS. Still, I just don't see what a M1 Carbine can do PRACTICALLY that an SKS can't. Probably nothing, it's just collectible so it fetches the over-inflated price. That's my only gripe, if they were cheaper I'd buy one. Actually, I probably wouldn't want the Carbine at all, if anything I'd be looking at the Garand. From the article I read, they seem more desirable in battle even if they are heavier. Not that I plan on being in a battle or anything, I'm just saying that from what I read the Carbines weren't that hot in the war.

Maybe somebody that was there and carried both can set me straight. I'd love to hear from you.

Manedwolf
June 2, 2007, 09:29 AM
Nice post, and thank you for that pic. It's a beautiful gun, but I still think that the price is simply over-inflated by collectors who are willing to pay more than what the gun is worth today just for it's collectible value or sentimental value.

That honestly doesn't make sense. What something is "worth" is dictated by what people are willing to pay for it.

What something is "worth" when assesed by a book is nonsense. You'll find collectibles that are "worth" hundreds in those silly antique books, go on eBay and find two dozen of them going for not more than $10 each.

Worth IS determined by the going rate on the market.

And:

That's my only gripe, if they were cheaper I'd buy one.

Sorry, but that's not how the world works. If something is popular and sells for a high price, that means that there's lots of people who are happily buying it for that price, and if you don't want to pay it, well...to be blunt, you can stand outside the door as other people pay and go on into the party, the place will be full without you. To me, that sounds like when people gripe that 'iPods are too expensive', even though Apple has sold every single one ever produced, thus proving that they're not. Something is only "overpriced" when it fails to sell because the price point is too high.

Carbines and garands fly off the shelf quickly. Thus, they're not overpriced.

A macro/microeconomics class might be a good idea...shows how things really work. :)

azsixshooter
June 2, 2007, 09:44 AM
Feh! Basically all you are saying is we have a surplus of people willing to pay more for something than what it's actually worth. And just because so many people are willing to do that makes it okay in your "magic book"? incidentally, I never mentioned book value and it's nice how you pulled that out of your @55. What's next out of you, ad hominem attacks? I wouldn't be surprised.

BTW, please let me know what ebay store is selling M1 Carbines for $10, I'll buy a few at that price!

rellascout
June 2, 2007, 10:00 AM
The SKS is a fine rifle. It does the job but they are crudely put together. For the money they are great but the 762 round is not for everyone.

The SKS to the M1 Carbine is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. The M1 Carbine was intended for use by soldiers who required a more compact, lightweight defensive weapon, and for soldiers who did not utilize an infantry rifle as their primary arm. They were never intended to be a primary battle rifle like the SKS or M1 Garand.

As to value I think that there are many different ways to judge that.

azsixshooter
June 2, 2007, 10:04 AM
Thank you for the intelligent post. I'm pretty much done with this thread now. My original questions have been answered and I now know that M1 Carbines are basically for collectors only at their current price. Thanks for all the good info guys! Great forums here! Bye.

rellascout
June 2, 2007, 10:11 AM
Sorry to see you leave your own thread but I think that you are wrong about the M1 carbine. You are not getting the answer you were looking for so you are dismissing what others are saying.

I am someone who will pay $1200+ for a Colt M4 or $1100+ for a Sig 556 or $800+ for a nice Arsenal AK47 These are all rifles that have similar quality of parts and construction. This are considerably more than I paid for my M1 Carbine.

I can clearly state that the M1 carbine is a value at $500. The fact that it may have collectors value is only icing on the cake IMHO.

hdawson228
June 2, 2007, 10:15 AM
axsixshooter. Not to worry. CMP is currently sold out of carbines. They didn't last long due to overwhelming demand.

I asked earlier in the thread if you have seen or held a CMP carbine. Well? :cool:

Manedwolf
June 2, 2007, 10:45 AM
Feh! Basically all you are saying is we have a surplus of people willing to pay more for something than what it's actually worth. And just because so many people are willing to do that makes it okay in your "magic book"? incidentally, I never mentioned book value and it's nice how you pulled that out of your @55. What's next out of you, ad hominem attacks? I wouldn't be surprised.

Other than that you're just demonstrating, repeatedly, that you really don't at all understand how markets in commodities and antiquities work? You persist in going on about the idea of "worth" in a manner that has nothing to do with, well...anything, at the same time disparaging the carbine that a large number of people with money to purchase it obviously value, meaning that's what it's "worth". As goes the quote from Princess Bride, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

If an object is priced at $500, and while consumer A says "that's too expensive", consumers B-Z come along and purchase them at $500, it is worth $500. The worth of an item is what the current market is willing to pay for it.

If you don't know know something, it's best to ASK, or READ. And shockingly, there's people who know more than you do about how things work.

HorseSoldier
June 2, 2007, 10:49 AM
Now, I don't mean to upset anyone who is a big fan of the M1 Carbine, but I read the article on them in the NRA's American Rifleman and they didn't exactly paint it in such a great light. I got from that article that at first a lot of infantrymen were running each other over to get one due to the Carbine being lighter and having higher capacity, but that they later found that the weapon had some real limitations and weren't as effective as they hoped they'd be.


Keep in mind that M1 and M2 carbines were still killing communists deader than cancer in SE Asia for years after the M1 Garand had been consigned to the ash heap of history and/or the National Guard. For the ranges where most combat actually occurs (less than 100 meters), the M1 carbine has a lot of pluses to go with its minuses.

More importantly, for the civilian shooter, M1 Carbines are just plain fun to shoot. Recoil is pretty much negligible and they're plenty accurate out to 200 meters if the shooter knows his business. They're great for introducing those who've never shot a long gun to firearms use and handling, first centerfire long gun for kids who are ready to graduate up from .22 LR, etc.

I bought my USGI carbine as a shooter back when you could find them at gun shows for $400 or so, and have put a bunch of rounds through it, but the fact that it's born-on date for the receiver and barrel are June 1944 doesn't hurt my appreciation of it at all.

In my original post, I basically just want to know what is the charter or point of the CMP? Is it really to make surplus rifles available to good, honest people or are they some kind of "pseudo-government-corporation" just trying to turn a buck. Thanks to all of you who answered that question for me. It seems that they are a good organization providing rifles at below inflated collector value. That's good and I will support that organization, even though I don't see myself buying any of those over-priced antiques anytime in the near future.


CMP has to cover its operating costs due to the lack of federal funding, but is a non-profit organization. Operating costs do not just include payroll for people who work in the two stores, etc., but also their support for competitive shooting events (Camp Perry matches, etc.) and support for local and state level shooting clubs and the like.

Heheheh, just kidding calling them "over-priced antiques" guys, I'm only joking. Everything I've read about the original M1 Garands is very positive and if they weren't so expensive I'd like to buy one. As it stands, I'll just hope that I help some old-lady cross the street or something and she'll leave me her dead husband's old M1!


Check the CMP Website (http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/index.htm) if you're interested in a Garand. They're presently out of stock, but are supposed to have more listed in October. I paid $425 each for my two Field Grades, both of which greatly exceed the minimum standards set for that grade. Service Grades, if I recall correctly, run $550, which is still several hundred dollars less than you'll see a Garand offered for at a gun show.

And CMP will have it delivered directly to your door if you mail order, without all the fuss of FFL transfers, etc.

Not to worry. CMP is currently sold out of carbines. They didn't last long due to overwhelming demand.


The feeding frenzy lasted two weeks :)

stolivar
June 2, 2007, 11:41 AM
they were the true M1 carbines...... They don't go very high here.


steve

Manedwolf
June 2, 2007, 12:10 PM
Where is "here"? I know at least three FFLs who would be on their way to restock their shelves to sell for $800.

stolivar
June 2, 2007, 12:12 PM
at the KC gunshow.



steve

dm1333
June 2, 2007, 05:42 PM
The Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) promotes firearms safety training and rifle practice for all qualified U.S. citizens with special emphasis on youth. The CMP operates through a network of affiliated shooting clubs and associations that covers every state in the U.S. The clubs and associations offer firearms safety training and marksmanship courses as well as the opportunity for continued practice and competition.

The CMP is not here to provide cheap rifles, that is just an added bonus. And they are not sold out of M1 carbines, but the rest that they have are not ready for sale yet.

hdawson228
June 2, 2007, 05:58 PM
dm. As I said, currently out of stock. More to come as soon as they can inspect and rebuild them. To the OP, FYI, they are completely torn down and any questionable parts are replaced with USGI parts and test fired. :cool:

kingudaroad
June 2, 2007, 06:12 PM
So what you are saying is for $300 you would love to own one of these fine historic carbines, but for $495 they are a junkie overpriced p.o.s.

I think I understand!:D

hdawson228
June 2, 2007, 06:37 PM
Maybe he should get a Moisan Nagant M91. those can be had for $69.00. :rolleyes:

Art Eatman
June 2, 2007, 08:24 PM
Since the originator said he's done with the discussion, I reckon we don't need to beat on a dead horse.

Art