View Full Version : Rifle Ability VS Shooter Ability

May 22, 2007, 05:42 PM
Hi all. I just returned from a wonderfull weekend full of shooting rifles and shotguns, lie swapping and beverage tasting. I got to show off my new Savage 12 .223 and overwhelmingly impressed all:D. It appears that my friends (all hunting buddies) are very happy with softball sized groups at 100 yrds. with there hunting rifles. They said that my sub moa groups was my "special rifle". I said that it is 50/50 rifle-shooter. Ok now to the question, what percentage do you think accurate riflemanship is. Rifle vs Shooter. By the way, my 16 year old daughter was hitting my buddies quarters at 100yrds. That my friend is a good feeling!

Magnum Wheel Man
May 22, 2007, 05:52 PM
IMO, it depends on the size of the groups you are shooting in the 1st place...

for a rifle to shoot quarter sized groups in the 1st place, everything with the gun & ammo has to be working right... congrats on appearently teaching her how to shoot...

hunting grade rifles might only produce a 2" group for example, in this case, then a soft ball size group would be 50% rifle & 50% shooter

May 22, 2007, 05:56 PM
Both my Blaser and my M41B are capable of 5 shot virtual one holers.

By the time Im done, they are up to 1/2 inch :)


May 22, 2007, 06:23 PM
I thought you only got those groups when I was showering you with empty brass from my AR?

May 22, 2007, 06:34 PM
WARNING WARNING SPIFF...stay away from L&P they have pictures of Guliani in drag :eek:


May 22, 2007, 07:11 PM
I don't know. I always thought if the shooter was capable, the accuracy potential of the rifle comes through. Conversely, if the shooter is a hack, an accurate rifle just looks average. A quarter is 1 inch?? and your daughter hit it on the 1st shot? That's good. What about the next shot? And the one after that? You can see where I'm going. Consistency is important too. I have shot varmints all day long with my 22-250, and by the end of the day I fought the flinch. With a larger caliber rifle, you get to that point a lot sooner. I shoot matches with my AR, and at 600 yds towards the end of the day, I throw one every now and then. So I judge a shooter by how well they shoot over time. But I agree, there is some of the accuracy inherent in the rifle, some in the shooter, you decide how much.

May 22, 2007, 07:35 PM
I agree with MagnumWheelMan - if a gun will only shoot 4-inch groups clamped in a rest, then even an Olympic shooter can't make it shoot 1/2-inch groups.

It's a combination of the gun's intrinsic accuracy, the quality of the sights, consistency of the ammo, and of course the shooter's skill.

The random variation due to each of these factors should be roughly additive, in statistical variance terms - unfortunately no one measures group variance, they measure group range, but the basic concept is still useful.

So large variation could be due to any particular factor being out of whack, but small variation can only mean that all sources of variance are well controlled.

May 22, 2007, 08:51 PM
For what its worth, here i go. I believe the gun has to be better than most shooters, meaning under 1" groups or at moa. But if the shooter is having a bad day then nothing will work, but if your on , some days will be under 1 moa! One thing i like to do is take a 22lr with me and settle in and get comfey and get a good mind set, then get the bad boy toy out and by that time your already in the groove. So in a nut shell i guess i'm saying the rifle and the shooter has to be at 100% for that group we all want to see.
SUB MOAs ARE :cool:

May 23, 2007, 11:17 AM
Thats good shooting for your Daughter's ability. Its impossible to put a percentage on this, but it cannot be done without a good rifle, scope, and ammo.

May 23, 2007, 12:19 PM
You can take a 1/4 moa rifle, put in the hands of a poor shooter, and it will not hold 3 moa.

On the other hand, you can take a 3 moa rifle (tested in a vise or rest), put it in the hands of an excellent shooter, and it will only hold (you guessed it) right at 3 moa.

Not really a percentage. I'll say it starts with the rifle/optic/ammunition, and ends with the shooter. All have to come together to get that beautiful group though.

As far as hitting a tiny target 1st round, that is usually all shooter ability. Obviously you must have a capable rifle to begin, but getting a 1/2 moa rifle to hit that quarter every time at 100 yds takes some skill in knowing how to zero the rifle and move that 1/2 moa group to the center of the quarter to make hits every time.

A quarter is about 3/4" or so, give or take.

May 23, 2007, 01:31 PM
I think that most rifles will out-shoot the person shootin' the rifle.

Including my rifle. :D

May 23, 2007, 02:00 PM
...and if the rifle is capable of 1moa and the shooter is capable of 1moa, the combination is only capable of 2moa (which is a heck of a lot less precise than 1moa!).

May 23, 2007, 02:04 PM
A good rifleman can make a bad rifle better.
A poor rifleman can't hit squat with a good rifle.

PTR 91
May 23, 2007, 02:07 PM
I would say that every one has bad aim days. On most days I can shoot 1 to 2 inch groups at 100 yards. But there are some days where I do bad and can't shoot under 4 inches. So I would say it's mostly the shooter. Unless if there is somthing wrong with the rifle.

May 23, 2007, 06:03 PM
I still think 50/50. 1 being a whole. If the rifle is right and the shooter is right then you have a winner. Or maybe its 33/33/33 rifle, shooter, ammo:confused: . I have three daughters 18,16,13, all can shoot very well. My oldest when she was 16 took first place at her ROTC marksmanship match. She had a score of 157 out of 200. The next place kid only had 102. She was the only girl there too.

May 24, 2007, 11:08 AM
O.K., just to be a smart @ss, if we are to break it all down (33-33-33). Lets add optics, trigger pull, outside weather conditions, how well the bench your shooting from is made, how well are the bags fitting the rifle,(assuming we are shooting from a bench and using bags), is the heigth correct when sitting-to the rest, some targets are easier to shoot at than others, factory loads vrs. hand loads (i know, already said ammo), Are all the bills paid, did you send the wife off to bed last night with a smile on her face, did the boss stay away from ya all week.:D

I'm changing my answer to...10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10;)

May 24, 2007, 11:29 AM
Once again, assuming the rifle (rifle, optics, ammo, etc) is capable of sub-MOA groups, it comes down to shooter ability. Trying to assign responsibility seems a bit silly to me, but then I subscribe to the Whelen philosophy (Only accurate rifles are interesting), and if a rifle won't shoot, I get rid of it.

The rifle has its own level of accuracy, and the shooter has their own level of ability. Neither are capable of improving the other, meaning that a shooter capable of 3 MOA shooting will not be helped by a rifle that is sub-MOA, except that it makes it much more visible how well they are shooting. A rifle that throws shot wildly is of no use (except possibly entertainment due to the noise), as it does not allow the shooter to focus on technique and see how they are improving. Both the rifle and the shooter have to be up to the task at hand.

May 24, 2007, 03:20 PM
With a modern rifle in good condition with good ammo, it's virtually all shooter.

May 24, 2007, 03:52 PM
The major mistake shooters make is becoming too dependant on the bench. After you know how your rifle shoots forget the bench exists ands you will be a much better real world shooter.

PTR 91
May 24, 2007, 03:56 PM
I wonder how many people on this sight use them sissy benches? I'm just kidding, but I would still say if you rifle is sighted in and you can't seem to get a good grouping then it's the shooter,and or ammo.

May 24, 2007, 05:24 PM
I really do not like shooting from a bench, just does not seem natural to me. I would much rather shoot with my belly in the dirt.

May 24, 2007, 08:29 PM
+1 with belly in the dirt, 10x fixed scope, cheap arsh federal powershok, and can still hold a 1/2 moa group at 300yds (1.443"):D

Of course when mirage got real bad I had 1 group post over 3/4 moa (2.228"):(