The Power of a Well Placed Bullet

[Jack O'Conner]

I'm now over 50 and been on the big game trail since I was 14. Many animals have fallen to my well placed bullets. I've learned a few things but do not know it all. Animal reaction to a well placed bullet is not always as predictable as we assume.

I've watched big mulies topple over in their tracks at 200 yards or so from a 170 grain 30-30 bullet through both lungs. I've also seen 'em bound away as if missed at 75 yards or so, then topple after a few jumps. It is a mystery to me.

I've harvested many coastal blacktails with my 44MAG carbine. Reactions have astounded me. One buck rose up on his hind legs and pawed the air like a stallion. Then he toppled over backward and kicked a few times. Another buck charged away and hit the ground stone dead in mid-stride. His chin plowed a shallow furrow in the dirt. Several blacktails just folded up and fell where they stood.

Antelope nearly always drop in their tracks from a double lung hit from my .243 rifle. These fascinating animals seem fragile compared to other big game animals.

Elk get a lot of press. "Bigger is better" according to so-called experts who write columns for magazines funded by ads by magnum focused gun manufacturers. Am I the only one who noticed that elk are not armor-plated? Please show me a big bull who can stand up to a double lung hit from a 300 Savage, .308, 30-06, 7mm-08 or 6.5mm Swede. Just show me one bull who can get away after such damage? This animal does not exist. Elk are not armor-plated despite what that southern Californian urbanite named Craig Boddington is paid to write!

Animals are killed quickly by well placed bullets that form a mushroom shape, hold together, and punch through hide and ribs. Animals are wounded by poor shooting, inadequate comprehension of basic anatomy, and bullets that fail to penetrate through hide and ribs. The diameter of the un-expanded bullet and velocity are lethal factors to consider but will never make up for poor shooting.

Good hunting to you.
TR

[turkey45]

..ive been around a moon or two,,LOL..
you describe huting to a tee,i myself have placed several
lethal bullets,with lots of different calibers,and witness the same
reaction,i once put a legal double lung hit on a whitetail doe at
30 yards with a 243,100 grain power point bullet,the animal ran 100
yards before dying,and the list goes on,,once put a doulble lung hit
on a 8 pointer,at 100,yards with a 270,130 grain bullet,the buck ran
about 75,yards before falling dead,,so story goes they dont always
drop in there tracks..LOL..:D

[Pointer]

I've also seen 'em bound away as if missed at 75 yards or so, then topple after a few jumps. It is a mystery to me.
I suspect that mostly when they bound away they are already alerted and their brain has already sent the fight or flight message.
I also read that large bears hearts only beat about every 9 seconds...even if you blow their heart out, (with lungs) they can do a whole lot with the 9 to 18 seconds they still have left...
Please show me a big bull who can stand up to a double lung hit from a 300 Savage, .308, 30-06, 7mm-08 or 6.5mm Swede.
I am unable to "show you" but I can tell you about one...

I saw an elk take a heart-lung shot from a 338 WinMag and run off as if he hadn't been hit at all! I was on high ground and I could see where it ran to...
After about 400 yards of running (uphill) he ducked into a small stand of trees.

The hunter who shot him had no idea where to look for him... I told him where to look and he tagged it...

Perhaps this was one of those times when the elk had taken a breath and his heart had beaten just prior to the hit? Who knows?

I helped track another bull that was shot in the chest with a .308 and also ran off... we took up the search at dawn the next day and found him dead at least 400 yards down the trail... It was a good hit too!

As you already know, I am one of those who believes in the magnums and I have killed elk with 30-06's dropping them on the spot!

I love the '06 and I consider it to be the "budget magnum" and the minimum cartridge for elk sized game... and now you know why.

I have tracked a good many animals shot by others...
When I was young, I had to track one of my own deer "for forever", and I never found it...

I have never since, used anything smaller than a 30-06, and I have never since had to track one of my own kills... "knock on wood"

A friend of mine shot an airborne buck with a 30-30 at 75 yards... the bullet only pushed the deer over the small ridge... another hunter shot it... they dug my firends bullet from between the tail and the pelvis... completely un-deformed!! The deer was not damaged by the bullet but was probably feeling the pain...I believe an '06 would have crippled the animal fast enough to shoot it again and the tag would have been my friend's... He retired his 30-30.
:cool:

[ZeroJunk]

I posted this on another thread but I'll repeat it FWIW.I shot a whitetail doe straight through both lungs with a 300 WBY 150 grain factory load,and she ran 250 yards at least.Never bled.The only reason I found her is because I could see her for about 90% of the flight.Bullet slipped between the ribs and never expanded.Probably going about as fast after it passed through the deer.I know this is an anomaly,but large magnums can fail too.

[Art Eatman]

"Animals are wounded by poor shooting, inadequate comprehension of basic anatomy, and bullets that fail to penetrate through hide and ribs."

Amen, brother, amen.

IMO, you've listed by order of importance, too.

:), Art

[rem33]

Animals are killed quickly by well placed bullets that form a mushroom shape, hold together, and punch through hide and ribs

There IS no substitute for a well placed shot.

[ZeroJunk]

Let me add this to the posting a couple back.I shot a whitetail buck,maybe 160 pounds,with the same 300 WBY.The cartridge came out of the same box.Shot was about the same distance.Anatomically the shots were within an inch or two.Not to get too graphic,but it made a mess and the deer never moved an inch.Difference was hitting a rib on the front side,and making the bullet expand.If all your deer fall instantly dead every time you hit their vitals,good for you.

[trooper3385]

Like the others have said, there is no substitute for a well placed shot. I've dropped a 160 lb 10 pointer with a 223. Wouldn't recommend it, but thats what I had at the time. I also had a friend hunting with me one time that took a large doe with a 30-06, using 165 gr core lokts. When the deer was hit, she didn't even flinch before throwing the flag and taking off. She dropped about 300 yds away. Upon field dressing the deer, the heart was in several pieces. I still can't explain that. I guess some of it just depends on the will to live. This deer was in the middle of a large cultivated field and was easy to see as it ran off and then dropped. However, if it was in the brush and you didn't see it drop, it could have easily been passed off as a miss if you didn't go down and check the area. The bullet apparently performed correctly, it left about a half dollar size exit hole and a large blood trail. The point I'm getting to is, just because you don't get much of a reaction from the animal and it runs off after the shot, don't necessarily pass it off as a miss. Check the area thoroughly before doing so. Use a gun you have confidence in and know what it can do. Theres no substitute for practice.

[rem33]

You should ALWAYS go look for blood if you shoot at a animal, even if you feel it was a complete miss. Its just kinda mandatory in my book.

Was hunting with another fella once. He shot a deer farther back that he would have liked. the Animal ran a ways away from him but into a perfect view for me, stopped in a sort of braced stance. It was in a plowed field I shot once, deer didn't move and I could see the bullet kick up dust 100 feet or so behind it. Thought ran thru my mind " how did I miss". So I shot again. Deer was knocked flat but I did see the bullet kick up dust again. Upon a closer look Both my bullets were a couple of inches apart, right thru the lungs, but the first one didn't hit a rib, second one did.
You are never sure and should always go take a good look for any sign, blood or hair of a hit.

[mikejonestkd]

Jack,

Well said and right to the point. too many people think animals are bulletproof to anything other than the latest G&A fad "super short ultra long belted whizz bang unbelted magnum".

Iv'e seen deer take multiple 12ga slugs to the lungs and keep on walking, at least for a while. I had the unfortunate experience to watch three yahoos unload their 12ga autoloaders into a single doe one day. She must have taken 5 or 6 hits before she went down. All poorly placed shots and a terrible way to take an animal. made me want to give up hunting that day.

I've seen deer take a single NBT 95 gr from a .243 handgun ( encore ) and drop on the spot.

The truth of the matter is that some animals will run after being shot with a decent bullet in the right spot, and others will drop right there.


Practice, practice, practice!!!!!

[Jack O'Conner]

I sort of have a negative attitude toward Boddington. Vast majority of his articles contain the word, magnum, 5 to 7 times. Count them carefully if you dis-believe me. My opinion is that his Publisher has been told the way it is and Boddington gladly complies.

I can't remember when was the last time that an article in HUNTING, F & S, or Outdoor Life featured a successful hunt with a slide action or automatic. Most lever action hunts seem obligatory with no real passion or commitment.

So it goes.
Jack

[mikejonestkd]

Jack,

IIRC one of the magazines did a hunt with the benneli R1 autoloader last year.

I suscribe to a few of the magazines and they all look alike after a while. None of them make me want to go out and buy any of the latest wizz bang rifles.

Most are all hype and glossy advertisements for stuff we don't need or ever want to buy...

[swampdog]

When I used to hunt with clubs I saw many cases of "magnumitis". Asking someone why they need a .300 magnum for a 120lb deer doesn't make you many friends. The ability to shoot well is much more important than the "power" of the rifle. I watched a guy stand on his truck box and unload his .300 mag at a running deer that was at least 400 yards across a field. When he was finished, his nose was bleeding but I don't think the deer was.

I've always done very well with standard cartridges. I currently have a 30/06, a .308 and a .35 remington. I hunted with a .270 for many years. It was an excellent performer at longer ranges but I had problems with bullets "punching through" without expanding at close range, unless solid bone was hit. While I never lost one, I did have to trail a couple much farther than I should have.

My .35 rem performs much better than it should if you look at paper ballistics. Maybe there is something to "big and slow".

I hunt in extremely thick cover, most of the time. When I absolutely need to drop one where it stands, I'll shoot it in the scapula. It ruins the shoulder, but they drop.

Bullet placement is even more important with handgun hunting, but that's another thread.

Good luck to everyone this season.

[Scorch]

I am not a fan of magnums. In fact, I shoot a cartridge that is 15 years older than the 30-06 (7X57mm), and am very pleased with its performance on game animals over the years. Every animal I have shot with it except one was recovered quickly and with minimal damage to meat. The one that was not recovered was a wild pig on the coast in California, and she went into the brush after she was shot diagonally through the chest (we found her two days later about a half mile away, the Speer bullet had not expanded). Perhaps a magnum would have allowed me to recover that one too (I doubt it), but I agree with Jack that a well-placed shot does more good than foot-pounds. I say "who needs 'em?"

[mikejonestkd]

Scorch,


Jack O' Connor's favorite caliber was the .270 win, and from what I have read the 7 x 57mm mauser was a close second, with the .30-06 a close third. The 7 x 57 has a great history of performance. Nice choice. If I was in the market for a 7mm I would closely look at it or the 7mm-08 which ballistically is almost the same. Just because it is old doesn't mean that it doesn't work anymore...

Shot placement is number one in my book, as long as you have a reasonable caliber for the intended game.

no magnums for me.....ever.

[Scorch]

Oh, I've owned a few over the years. Trades that were too good to pass up, you know. Had a 7mm Mag BAR (heavy and loud), a Rem 700 in 8mm Rem Mag (rough on the shooter and probably a fire hazard ;) ), and a Mark X 375 H&H that I owned for about one hour. I just keep going back to the old standby, and I've gotten to the point I don't even look at the mags any more.

[ZeroJunk]

I actually bought the 300 WBY mentioned earlier to Elk hunt with.I sent the rifle to McMillan and had them piller bed it in their stock.When I got it back I loaded it to be in the vicinity of a 30/06 load to deer hunt with,about 3000 fps with 150 grain bullet.Well,it would hardly shoot a 6 inch group loaded down,and I thought something was wrong.I happened to have a box of 150 grain WBY factory ammo.Shot a 3/4 group with it.So,rather than chase my tail I just continued to use it.Obviously too much for deer.

[FirstFreedom]

I appreciate any of those wise/helpful words from someone like Jack who has BTDT. :)

I've been cured of "magnumitis" for a few years now (for the most part). The only magnum I want is a .338 lapua, in something like an AR30. But that's for range fun at 600-1,000 yards, not hunting.

My main hunting calibers thus far have been .270, .30-06, 6.5x55, .25-06, .243, .30-30, .45-70, and .45 & .50 cal BP rifles. Principally to be used this year and next are .25-06, .30-06, .45-70, and .45 cal BP. Beyond that, I have some backup hunting rifles in .308, .223, 7.5x55mm, and .454 Casull. Yep, I too sold the two 7 remmags I had. But I agree that both 7x57 mauser, .280 rem, and 7mm-08 are all very fine all-purpose hunting calibers - those 7mms have a good variety of quality bullets, almost up there with .30s.

Oh wait, I wouldn't mind having a .375 HH mag, and .458 Lott someday, and to go on an African trip with them.

I also still have this odd hankering for a rifle in .35 Whelen, but I'm hoping it will pass. :)

[Jseime]

My deer rifle was is and always will be a .270 Winchester. I dont need a magnum rifle to take down a big mulie at 250 yards heck i dont need a big magnum to take down anything i hunt because if a .30-06 wont kill it then its on another continent and i cant afford that.

I personally have never lost a deer and I've never had one run away after a hit (call me lucky) but then again ive shot less than ten deer. Usually a single round of .270 in the heart is more than adequate for a clean kill but if you miss the heart and get the guts look out boy cuz its ugly and ive seen it.

[Socrates]

Well, I've got a 30-06 and a 375 H&H, and a 22lr.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE 375 H&H???

I like to think of it as the most sensible magnum, and, if you load it the way it was designed, 40-50K, it's NOT a magnum, at least by these Weatherby zipgun velocity standards.
If I can't get it done with a 2800 fps 270 grain soft point, I may not want to shoot it...

S

[Pointer]

Zerojunk
I know this is an anomaly,but large magnums can fail too.
Of course they can... that's why you use them... to minimize the odds of failure... ;)

I think the reason your specific shot failed, was probably due to the wrong bullet design/construction for the specific conditions...

You cannot cover for EVERY specific condition... so you have to trim the fat were you can. :)

Magnums trim the fat... :D :D

Jseime
My deer rifle was, is, and always will be, a .270 Winchester.
Now that makes good sense!!!
It is an excellent deer cartridge...
Just leave it home for the elk hunt... ;)

[mikejonestkd]

magnums do have their place in certain instances but so few people can shoot them as well as milder rounds.

That is one big reason that rounds like the .243, 257 roberts. .260 rem, 6.5 X 55 swede, 7mm-08 and 7 x 57 mauser seem to be so much more effective than their paper ballistics show. heck, include the good old .30-30 and .35 remington for shorter range work too. They all are easy to shoot and a person can practice more with out flinching and develop real skills with these rounds.

Few people can put 20 rounds of .300 weatherby through a rifle in a trip to the range without noticing a decrease in accuracy by the end of the session.

You can shoot these milder rounds all day and work up real skill.

I would rather hunt with a rifle that I know that I can hit well with than one that is more powerful that I am not 100% confident in.

If you have the time, skill and the ability to learn to shoot your latest fad super wiz bang magnum well then by all means have fun and good luck.

Last year I went up to the Adirondak region and ended up at a local gun shop.
Almost all of the deer rifles were magnums, the shop owner claimed that to use anything less was cruel to the deer, as they would only wound them with lesser rounds like the .270...He claimed that the .300 win mag was the minimum for deer and the .300 weatherby was about right...I laughed as I walked out...

[castnblast]

A note to you "MAG" shooters...I was/am one to...Bullet choice is everything. The biggest baddest bullet on the market will drop a deer, but thosed designed for max penetration are likely to NOT open and blow through like ball ammo if it does not hit bone. I saw this w/ a guy I used to hunt with. He shot a nice 12 w/ a 338. 220 gr. It never opened. That deer ran 400 yds. +. Had he used a different bullet, that probably would not have happened.

[texfar]

I have a .300 rem ultra. It took me some time time to master it. I is not a monster, just more than I have been shooting. Mind over matter. It awsome after mastering the recoil and psy effect.

[BIGR]

oh yes........bullet design and placement does it all. Does not matter how big the boom is if you can't put them in the right place its useless.

[Lost River]

Jack O

I have not hunted coast to coast. I grew up hunting big game in Idaho. I started with a .270. I have watched my little ole mom kill more big bull elk in the 70s and early 80s with a .270 win in an old savage bolt gun and a 4x leupold than most of the "experts" have probably ever seen outside of the "game farms" or guided hunts.

Myself, I have only killed a dozen or so elk with a 270. I never knew I needed a magnum or premium bullets.
Since then I have used 308s, 7mms and the 300 win with good success, but none ever died any quicker or were more dead.

Same goes for mulies. I cannot tell the difference between deer shot with a 30-06, 270, 7 rem mag or 300 win mag. They all just died and the work began. Quarter 'em, tie 'em on the pack frame and start walking.

The only thing I have done is extend my range a bit.

I enjoy long range hunting but unfortunately the majority of hunters I see with "long range" guns have no idea how to utilize their gear and take very irresponsible shots, often missing the entire animal or worse.

It is a year round dedication to make long range shots on game in a responsible manner.

[Jack O'Conner]

I rec'd a reply letter from Craig Boddington recently. I'd written to him about his extensive use of magnum rifles. My letter was not nasty; I'd simply wanted to know why he chose a 7mm MAG for a tree stand deer hunt in Missouri where the shooting distance was less than 100 yards.

His reply was very polite. He is tasked by his Publisher to go huntin' and write articles. The rifles are rarely his choice. He shared that his father hunted moose in Alaska twice with a .308 carbine and had very good results.

Boddington closed by stating that an elk hunter focused on a big trophy herd bull may not always be presented with a good broadside shot. It might be running through the trees. He suggested that taking this shot with a magnum rifle is the best choice due to velocity, energy, etc. Personally, I would not fire that kind of wounding shot at all. I don't believe breaking an animal down by smashing its pelvis is ethical. But I guess that's where I'll end this note.
Jack

[Paul B.]

Well, maybe we all do Mr. Boddington a disservice. It was on another site that he was being totally trashed. Now he did not have to come onto that site and respond to his detracotors, but not only did he respond, but tactfully so. While I still am no great fan, I will concede that he is a gentleman, if nothing else.
Regarding his "magnumitis", in the last year, he has done an excellent article on the .358 Winchester and another on the old 7x57 Mauser. They just happen to be two of my favorite cartridiges. One thing he brought out on the .358 Win. was that it was not just a short range brush cartridge, something I've known for years.
Sometimes I think the reason so many people dislike Mr. Boddington is plain out and out jealousy. let's be honest here, we'd all like to get to go on all those freebie hunts the gun and ammo makers give out. Mr. Boddington sems to get the lion's share, and maybe, just a little bit, if we're honest, that kinda sticks in our craw. It does me, but at least I'm honest enough to admit it.
I'll hunt with a magnum cartridge if I think the situation calls for it. One of the areas I hunt elk at, when the shooting starts, the elk head out to these wide open meadows that are over a mile wide and many miles long. A .270 or 30-06 just ain't gonna cut it. In taht area, it's either shoot long or go home empty-handed. This year, I drew an area that' totally new to me. I've got to get on up there and look it over and decide what I will carry. It might be my 30-06, .35 Whelen or the .300 and .338 Win. Mags. It just depends on the terrain.
Paul B.

[SavageSniper]

I personally do not own a magnum rifle either, but my best friend does. He shoots a 300 weatherby. Until I joined this forum, I never knew that many people actually used magnums on deer(esp. in the south) I just wrote it off as my friends ego. He has taken alot of deer with it though. To speak of not knowing what a bullet will do when it hits a deer, he shot a small 7point last season that was looking at him at about 20 steps. Hit him in the neck and yes droped like a brick. When we looked at the damage, the bullet was lodged under the skin of the right shoulder. Granted, there was alot of deer burger for that 12 inches or so it traveled, but I was suprised it didn't exit.

[Fat White Boy]

To my way of thinking, the .270 is a magnum round. 130-40 grains moving at +3Kfps? That's a magnum...

[Art Eatman]

FWB, the commonly accepted meaning generally means cartridges that do a good bit MORE than the .270 (or '06, etc.) in the velocity department for a given wieght of bullet. If you begin imposiing your own idea on the rest of the world, you create confusion--particularly for a newbie.

So the .264 WinMag on up to the RAUM stuff, etc., are within the accepted parameters as most people understand them. The .270 is not.

Art

[castnblast]

Should have seen the hog a buddy of mine shot this past weekend w/ a 22-250. This hog was shot at 127 yards...Per Bushnell Yardage Pro 500. The hog was shot in the shoulder...Smack in the middle of the shoulder w/ a 55 gr. Sierra Spitzer Boat tail. Blew a huge hole through the shoulder blade, and pulverized the heart/lung area. The scale indicated this hog field dressed at 161 lbs. I'm using mine this weekend, and hope to post some pics of damage done.

BTW...This hog was dropped dead in his tracks. No tracking necessary.

[Socrates]

One More Time: What's Wrong With The 375 H&h Magnum?

S

[Art Eatman]

Nothing that I've ever heard of. :) It's more than is needed, is all. But, if that's whatcha got, use it. It'll work just fine.

But for this thread, recall that a "well-placed shot" from a lesser cartridge is plenty good.

Art

[Socrates]

I agree with everyone that under ideal conditions, with excellent shot placement, lighter rifles do the job. A headshot with a .223 is going to work on deer, isn't it?
Now, what about the not so ideal shots? That 12 point buck who got that way by showing nothing but tail everytime it hears, or sees, a hunter? All you have is a texas heart shot, and, you want something that will penetrate full length deer, and create enough of a wound channel to put the deer to rest quickly. I think the mags get a bad rap, since they use light bullets, that explode, or, due to high velocity, fail to penetrate. If used with a heavier bullet, you can get both expansion, and penetration, at a much large caliber size. Hawk bullets are a good example of a bonded, heavy hollow point, that can be tailored to what ever rifle, and velocity you want, since they make different thickness jackets. I think the mags give you the chance to get good velocity, with heavy bullets, that expand, and penetrate well. My topic would have been people using bullets that don't penetrate sufficently for their target, regardless of caliber. In other words, you get caught with a soft, when you need something that's heavier, and penetrates better for the shot you are taking.
I have noticed a trend here to think shot placement is everything, and, that negates that hunting doesn't occur in a perfect world.

S

[mikejonestkd]

>>>All you have is a texas heart shot, and, you want something that will penetrate full length deer

Or, you can wait for a better shot, which is what I prefer to do. Around here deer are as common as rabbits, I know another one will be along soon if I can't take a shot at the first one of the day.

That being said, if I was on a ' special ' hunt for a game animal that was new to me i would bring more than what I would use back home - because I wouldn't want to have to pass on a last hour of daylight shot on the last day of an elk hunt because of being underpowered.

[Socrates]

Your last post sums it up pretty well.

Likewise, use enough gun for your target, under bad circumstances, and, take enough gun to stop any predator that might not like you hunting in his territory.

S

[Hello123]

A powerful round through the shoulder blades on a deer is better than behind the shoulder. It kills and plants them where they stand. There is not much meat to save there anyway.

[454c]

QUOTE :
A friend of mine shot an airborne buck with a 30-30 at 75 yards... the bullet only pushed the deer over the small ridge... another hunter shot it... they dug my firends bullet from between the tail and the pelvis... completely un-deformed!! The deer was not damaged by the bullet but was probably feeling the pain...I believe an '06 would have crippled the animal fast enough to shoot it again and the tag would have been my friend's... He retired his 30-30.



Classic,the cartridge gets the blame. At 75 yds., it's not gonna matter if it's a 30-30 or 30-06.

[Socrates]

As long as people hunt for trophies, and not food, you end up with the scenario's I described, and, you do need the edge of a big bore rifle, though I'm not convinced a less then 375 H&H magnum is worth much, in a mag caliber. Big bears, deer, elk, don't get that way by being stupid, or, allowing humans to get close to them, or, allowing a human to have a good shot at them.

If you were REALLY hungry, the same scenarios would apply, as well. Don't care if that texas heart shot on that big hog is all I've got, I'm hungry, and, I'm eating today, so I'm shooting now...

If you can't get it done with a 30-06, in the lower 48, what magnum is going to make any difference?
.375 RUM comes to mind, and, a 458 Lott works for me;-)

I guess the next question would be: If you shoot a pig, bison, buffalo, with a 450 Nitro Express 2, 500 grain bullet, at 2200 fps, a fairly consistent game reaction is the game goes down. It may get right back up, but, the whack is enough to cause enough shock for the animal to go off it's feet. During this time, you can focus, and finish the animal. Rifles that do this on a consistent basis, usually start with 416 Rigby, 458 Win mag, Lott, Ackley, and go up. Would such impact be useful for hunting deer, pigs, etc. and, would the knock down effect be enough to allow a second shot?

Since my 375 H&H is marginal for this sort of effect on game, I have a very hard time believing any of the lesser magnums would have such effect.

Am I way off here?

S