View Full Version : Double standard / cheating @ competition

June 7, 2006, 11:18 AM
In a recent competition that I attended, one of the competitors violated the 180 degree rule and swept (with a loaded gun) about 5 competitors feet as he drew the gun before he was in the firing box - yet because he was good friends with the RO - was not disqualified.

In the same match - the RO who was overly generous in calling out Alpha's for hits that were clearly Charlies.

Since most of these local matches are "friendly". What suggestions do you have to remedy these problems?

June 7, 2006, 11:22 AM
If its not a serious match and just a local thang for bragging rights let it ride if its not for serious prizes. It will hurt the guy when he goes to a serious match above the local level and continues to make the mistakes the RO lets him get away with. Then everybody will know.

June 7, 2006, 12:06 PM
No prizes. It is purely a local match.

June 7, 2006, 02:19 PM
I'm no competitor, nor play one on tv...but what came to my mind is, the other guy is playing with a handicap and doesn't realize it.

So go beat em at their own game. Clearly & concisivly. Then you can be extra proud. Nothing you can do about him sweeping except stay out of the way.

I used to spot my kids a rook or a queen when teaching them chess to give em a chance, but more just to give me some better practice against lesser players that were not in my league.:D

June 7, 2006, 03:33 PM
So far, the only inconsistencies I see at the matches are just honest mistakes. Once pointed out, the RO or scorer makes changes immediately.

I've not shot any real matches yet since I'm not good enough to win yet, so the above is just what I see at the local matches.

June 7, 2006, 04:27 PM
If I saw him break the 180 I would have stopped him whether I was the RO or not. I would also attempt to DQ him, again whether I am the RO or not.

EVERYONE is responsible for safety at a match, not just the RO. Speak up before someone gets hurt.

June 8, 2006, 07:00 AM
Unfortunately it was not I that saw him. One of my friends pointed it out to me after the run was over. He physically jumped out of the way when he saw the competitor break the 180. :eek:

I probably would have yelled 180 if it was me, but I was in the back far away from the action - snacking on fig newtons and talking with the boys. :cool:

Thanks for reminding us that everyone is responsible for safety in the match, not just the RO.

June 8, 2006, 09:11 AM
Remember Bill Clinton and Golf? He'd move his Ball, forget numerous Shots and do whatever was necessary to improve his Score. Once, after completing a Round, he bragged "I beat (Tiger) Woods on this Course!" The sad thing is, he actually belived it!

The Cheaters and Gamers are fooling only themselves. Let 'em play their Games. I'd definately call them on Safety Violations though.

June 8, 2006, 12:56 PM
While it's everyone's job to BE safe, it's only the RO's job to make the calls. Unless you are the CRO (holding the timer), or the RO (scorekeeper, and ideally also a certified RO), you should definitely not be shouting "Stop!" or "180!" when another shooter is shooting. It would create total anarchy on the range to have everyone in the peanut gallery "working" the stage.

June 8, 2006, 03:28 PM
I WAS an RO. I've retired, but when I shoot, you'd better believe I'd call someone out if they were behaving in an unsafe manner! Unsafe gun handling is NOT a matter for good manners! If the RO is ignoring it, you're damned right I, as a member of the "Peanut Gallery", would make an issue of it! If the RO continued to ignore it, I'd take it up with the Match Director. If he brushed it off, I'd find another place to shoot. After all, I usually have a choice of at least two Matches an any given Weekend.

If they're just gaming, I'll ignore it, but when it comes to Safety, I'll make a real Fist of myself!

June 8, 2006, 05:26 PM
Making an "issue of it" is not the same thing as making a call during a course of fire. If anyone believes unsafe behavior is being displayed, by all means, take it up with the RO or MD, but don't "play" RO from a position of competitor/spectator.

June 8, 2006, 06:53 PM
I might wander around with a camera. Then too I'd read the rule book for the discipline involved - the 180 is not a universal rule though be safe is. If I didn't feel safe at a minimum I wouldn't put myself in the same position again.

On the other hand the old rule about complaining about the cooking makes you the next cook applies - I'd figure if I said anything - beyond I won't be back because.... - I was volunteering to do my own feeble best at the job.

June 8, 2006, 09:18 PM
No compromise; none.

As for the other cheating, sometimes a gentle nudge helps cure it, yet other times an embarrassing moment works best.

I try to shoot with honorable folks.......

June 9, 2006, 12:35 PM
Is not volunteering the same as withholding? If you (anyone) shoot a CoF, and you know one of your rounds passed through a barrier on the way to the target, do you volunteer the information, or leave it to the RO to find it? If you fired a shot with your toe touching outside a fault line, you rush to tell the RO, so that you can get a penalty? Any sport that has officials, places the burden on the official to make the call; how many times have you seen a TV replay of a "touchdown" that wasn't, or a stolen base that should have been an out? The official's ruling is what counts. Are those who don't make an effort to correct a bad or questionable call, cheaters? If the RO calls "Alpha", do you ask him to put a template on it, to see if it isn't really a charlie?

June 9, 2006, 01:53 PM
Safety. I'm talking Safety! Not unintentional minor Faults. No RO is perfect. If he ocasionally misses a minor Fault, well nobody's perfect. If he always misses some act which gives the Shooter an unfair Advantage, and it's only for one Shooter or Group of Shooters, it needs to come to the Attention of the MD.

As for Gamers, like Bill Clinton, they're only fooling themselves!

Guy B. Meredith
June 9, 2006, 06:23 PM
In local matches I don't particularly worry for the most part since I do not have a competitive mind set in terms of 'beating' someone. My involvement is just personal satisfaction of doing well and don't really care whether anyone else notices.

Most of my involvement is in the above mentioned local matches. On the other hand, in a real match like the International Revolver Championships I would bring it to the RO's attention out of fairness to other competitors as well as myself.

June 12, 2006, 08:14 PM
Speaking from the nasty experience of having a Condition Zero M1911 .45 Auto pointed directly at my COM with the shooter's finger on the trigger - TWO different times - at local-level pin matches, I can say that it is amazing that there have been so few NDs drawing blood at shooting matches.

Safety should be No. 1. And having a loaded gun pointing uprange, even for an instant, is a DQ event.

No ifs, ands, or buts. No buddy buddy.

If someone gets killed at a shooting match, it will be VERY BAD for all of the shooting sports.