.308 for Elk

[glockopop]

Is a .308 big enough for elk? I've been told a .30-06 or a .300 Win Mag is the way to go, but I'm kind of looking for an excuse to buy an M1A.

[aspen1964]

a 308 is big enough...

[Edward429451]

My son took an elk with a .308 at 75 yds. It only went about 50 yds before dieing. There was too much meat damage and I plan to tame that load down for this years hunt.

You'll be hunting in timber will you not? You don't need anything more than a .308 / 180.

[Pointer]

.308 aka 30-06 SHORT is a decent elk cartridge... :)

The 30-06 is better because it moves a heavier bullet faster (About 150-200 fps).

The .300 is even faster with even heavier bullets... :cool:

If you're OK with the muzzle velocity differences... and shorter ranges... you'll be OK. :D

[DobermansDoItGoofy]

Think of the 308 as being like the 30-06. The big factor is bullet placement.
Most pros/guides I've ever talked to...have told me they'd rather see a customer show up with an old 270 Win that they know how to shoot than a brand new 300 Win. that maybe they don't know how to shoot.
The 308 has plenty of power...and should do the job.
:cool:

[hoghunting]

The 308 will work very well, just as the others have said. If you plan on using the M1A for hunting elk, I hope you will be on flat land without much walking, as it is going to get heavy. If you are not using a scope, you might limit yourself to shooting shorter distances.

[Arizona Fusilier]

My buddy had to borrow my .308 on an elk hunt when his .270 had an accident. Went on to take a cow elk went I went home:mad: .

.308 is plenty. Matter of fact, plenty of people take elk with .270 ( the other gun I was hunting with) all the time. Wouldn't go lower than that, though.

30-06 is probably "optimum". But many will argue that it and .308 are so close ballistically under most conditions that it's not worth sweating any difference. I guess I'm one of them.

[Pointer]

30-06 is probably "optimum". But many will argue that it and .308 are so close ballistically under most conditions that it's not worth sweating any difference. I guess I'm one of them.

The difference between the .308 and the 30-06 is about the same as the difference between the .30-06 and the .300 WinMag...:rolleyes:

[taylorce1]

I drop elk with a .270 and a lot of people will tell you that is to small of a bullet for the job. I would stay around a 160 grain bullet and keep the ranges less than 300 yards. The .308 is capable of longer shots if you are able to practice shooting at longer ranges. My only question is are you sure you want to use an M1A to hunt with, great rifle but kind of heavy to carry all day. Most States only allow 5 round magazines or less if you hunt with a semi-auto. My suggestion is buy the M1A because you want to and get a good bolt action for hunting elk.

[Lycanthrope]

An M1A with a red dot or small variable scope is a deadly timber gun for elk.

[Jack O'Conner]

11 of the 17 elk I've shot were toppled with a .308 rifle. Plain 180 grain ammo is quite good. Premium ammo is even better.

I've NEVER shot farther than about 250 yards. Elk are not difficult to approach by careful stalking. Their eyesight is not the same league as antelope. 225 yards has probably been my average shot. I nearly always wait for a broadside shot into the chest.

I advise all elk hunters to shoot twice. Place your first bullet directly into the chest, the second bullet as close to the first as possible. Practise, practise, practise shooting twice at the range. Work the action quickly but don't hurry the second shot. This practise will pay off in the field.

Good hunting to you.
Jack

[glockopop]

The possibility of an elk hunt is still very much up in the air. If I do go, it won't be until next year. I will be in Colorado with my dad and his old army buddy who lives out there and hunts professionally. Apparently, he has a camp that's located on the mountainside overlooking an open grassy area where they like to feed. I was thinking that an M1A might be on the heavy side, but I won't really be tracking an elk over mountains for miles. Think I could use an M1A for prairie dogs too? Is there anything (outside of Africa) that I can't hunt with a .308? I wanted a "tacticool" AR-15 for a while, but if I spend a pile of money on a military style rifle I want it to be useful if I want to hunt something. I also want it to be accurate and reliable. I'm mostly a plinker, and a buddy of mine has 2 .223s and a .270 that are both bolt guns, so I kind of want something different, and I don't particularly care for the feel of the Remington 7600. Any other suggestions I should take a look at?

[taylorce1]

Glock, I hope you do come to Colorado and hunt elk. I think you will enjoy hunting here it can get quite expensive being from out of State I think bull tags are over $400 now. It will also make a difference if you are hunting private or public land with your dad's friend. On private land you will probably have the hunt go as described, on public I'm not so sure. There are a lot of elk hunters here and to get a cow tag filled is not much of a problem, but to find a nice bull on public lands you really have to work at it. Getting a good bull 300 B&C or better is going to take lots of time and Patience and a walking for lots of miles at high altitudes, and a good deal of luck.

Prairie dogs is another story, they are plentiful and here in CO and can only be hunted on private lands. I would get a .223 to shoot these guys, your .308 will shot them just the same only with more expense. Hunting these little critters will provide you with hundreds of shots during the day and depending on the size of the dog town possibly thousands of shots. I use a lot of guns when I hunt them .22 WMR, .223, and .243, I only use the .243 when the shots are over 300 yds. Most days I don't even use the .243 because I'm having so much fun using the .22 WMR and my .223.

[FirstFreedom]

I am very appreciative of the wisdom of yours, Jack O' C.

[Pointer]

Jack O and FirstFreedom

+1

Glockopop
Is there anything (outside of Africa) that I can't hunt with a .308?

Absolutely...

Jaguar, Grizzly, Polar Bears... and even pissed-off Black Bears

If it's dangerous... get something heftier.

Even the 30-06 is not the best choice for these critters...

The 8mm Mag (or .325WSM) and .338, and .375 would be better and all three are excellent for Elk as well.

Rifle types each fill a specific purpose... "Tacticool" is not the best for Big Game hunting...

Browning makes a really "cool" lever (BLR) in the .300WSM and 30-06 for elk/moose sized animals and down. And of course they make it in the 30-06 SHORT... :D

Also, carefully consider why the bolt action is the most numerous hunting rifle.
After you get a good hunting gun (30-06 :D) then go for the tactical weapon.

NOTE: If the military (& NATO) had not needed a shorter round for automatic weapons... the 30-06 SHORT would never have become popular in the market and possibly never mass produced... It wasn't a necessity. ;)

When I look at .270, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm-08 and even the .308...
I can't help but wonder... WHY?

I can see making it bigger-better like the .35 Whelen etc.
But there is very little, if anything, to be gained from downsizing the bullet mass. (Maybe for those who are recoil sensitive?) The 25-06 is a possible exception because it is the best .25 caliber, bar none, and it fills a niche that isn't adequately filled by others...

They are all children of the 30-06 which will easily perform as well or better...

If you gotta move a few tons of hay bails you would ask the big brother for help first and then maybe you'd ask the little brother... But one of them will get the job done quicker and better. :)

I would apologize and say this is MHO...
But, how can I be humble when my opinion is soooo right? :D :D

If the 30-06 ain't broke...don't fix it!"

[taylorce1]

When I look at .270, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm-08 and even the .308...
I can't help but wonder... WHY?


Pointer the answer is why not. If we only had one caliber to talk about this would be a very boring forum. If you read my earlier post you know I have a fondness for the 06 and its offspring. I also like variety in cartridges and their abilities or I would not enjoy my rifles so much.

[Fremmer]

I can't help but wonder... WHY?

Because more is not always better. And you probably won't gain much more over the .308 in factory loaded ammo, at least with the light and medium weight rounds. Try shaking a 150 grain .30-06 round next to your ear; you'll probably hear a 'swish' of powder inside of the empty, unused portion of the case.

Not everyone handloads, and for deer hunting, I don't think that the minimal difference in velocity from the .30-06 is significant. A wide variety of outstanding factory-loaded hunting and target rounds are available. And I like the shorter bolt throw of the .308. One thing I do know: the .308 is an accurate caliber.

But heck, I know from personal experience that both calibers kill deer just fine. And chances are, if I couldn't kill it with a .308, I wouldn't be able to with a .30-06, either. I'll have to use my .308 on elk, because by the time I buy the out-of-State license, I won't be able to afford a new rifle. Pointer, you should like us .308 guys; we've gotta be better than those wimpy 20 caliber geeks, right? :D :p

[Pointer]

Taylorce1
I have a fondness for the 06 and its offspring.
I think a cartridge should have a purpose more important than softer recoil...
I think I'm too practical for your own good... :)

Fremmer
Because more is not always better.
'zactly

I got it! More cartridge types are not always better... :D

Pointer, you should like us .308 guys; we've gotta be better than those wimpy 20 caliber geeks, right?
I do...I do... and

'zactly

I just have trouble with calling a .22 short better (for any purpose) than a .22 LR. And 'seems t'me a 30-06 SHORT is not an improvement over the 30-06... ;)

:D :D

[Jack O'Conner]

Certainly there are many effective elk hunting cartridges. The best one for you is the one you can shoot well from makeshift field rests. The best one for you is a cartridge you can can shoot affordably from time to time for practise and fun.

I'm the wrong hunter to ask about Africa. Way too spendy for me and besides, I'd have to leave the meat over there.

North American bison are very large animals but I dropped one where he stood with my .308 rifle. I shot into his skull just behind the ear and slightly lower than the ear opening from a distance of about 125 yards or so. His legs folded up and he died instantly. The prairie actually reverberated a little. Bison are heavy animals.

Years ago, I shot a moose and a couple caribou in Saskatchewon with this same rifle. My bullets did not bounce off them either!
Jack

[taylorce1]

+1 to what you are saying Jack O'C.

Like I said earlier variety in life gives us with something to talk about, just be thankful the cartridge & rifle manufactruers didn't stop when the .30-06 was discovered. If they had this discussion would never of happened. I think that every cartridge has a purpose even if it just stays a wildcat round at least it was tried.

Pointer, thanks for being such a staunch advocate of the 06 it truly is the King of Cartridges in the US. But I would still hunt anything in the States except for Great Bears with my .270 and not blink about it. For the big bad bruins I have my 338-06 or 35 Whelen. Remember the 06 started life as a "TACTICOOL" rifle as well, our idea of what the rifle is has just changed over the last 100 years.

[DobermansDoItGoofy]

The 308 is very versatile ie. there's a wide selection of bullets and it's an accurate round ie. more accurate than a 30-06. Is it perfect? No. I can't think of any pefect bullet. Here are some myths: 1) It's short action doesn't allow a flat enough trajectory for pronghorn(yawning...just look up a ballistic's table and see the numbers. Not only is it flat enough - it's less suceptible to wind-drift problems...) 2) I shot an elk at 400 yards in the heart with a 308 - and to this day we still can't find that elk ( I don't doubt the honesty of that report - but I've heard that sort of report about lots of other calibers too...including the 30-06, the 270, the 300 Win...and I'll just say that there are other factors involved than just 'energy level' and 'placement' ie. what any given bullet and animal do on the point of impact at 400yds. is more of a mystery than what they do at 200 yds... )
3) The 308 is not as powerful as the 30-06. The 308 and 30-06 are virtual twins with bullets from 180gr. on down... The 308 is a little more accurate and can be used with shorter barrels. If you can't do it with a .308 - I doubt you'll do it any better with a 30-06.

However, the debate about the 308 and 30-06 and even the 300 Win being
the best elk round ... does sadly remind me of a round that just might solve the problem. There is one round that burned powder more efficiently than the above rounds, that had significantly less recoil than a 300 Win., that was inherently accurate(won lots of matches!) and came in a wide selction of bullets from 125gr. to well over 200gr. and could deliver more punch than a 30-06. It fed well due to its tapered shape and was extremely reliable.
It was the 300 H&H. Isn't it ironic that perhaps the best and most practical round - the 300 H&H - was virtually eliminated to make room for the 300 Win? Incidentally the 270 Weatherby(Roy Weatherby's 1st magnum and the grandaddy of the magnum chase...) was a necked down 300 H&H... I wish I could buy a 300 H&H today! :rolleyes:

[Pointer]

Pointer, thanks for being such a staunch advocate of the 06 it truly is the King of Cartridges in the US. But I would still hunt anything in the States except for Great Bears with my .270 and not blink about it. For the big bad bruins I have my 338-06 or 35 Whelen. Remember the 06 started life as a "TACTICOOL" rifle as well, our idea of what the rifle is has just changed over the last 100 years.

You're welcome...

I think maybe I haven't been very clear...
I mean if... I have a choice between a .308 and a 30-06 I will go for the faster muzzle velocity ...

I'm fine with the .308, I simply can't comprehend why anyone would "choose" it over the 06.

Let's play a little game...same rules...same logic...different cartridges...

Axiom:
The .308 is to the .30-06...
As the .257 Roberts is to the 25-06...
As the 25-06 is to the .270

Therefore with that reasoning...
The .257 Roberts is just as good as the 25-06...
and the 25-06 is just as good as the .270

I like the .308 and it's a heck of a lot better than a 24's, 25's or a 27.

So, what's my bottom line for elk?

The 30-06 :rolleyes:
.308 is [/I]more accurate than a 30-06
I've had several 30-06's. Several of them have shot groups with all bullet holes cutting each other...

.308 more accurate? I say prove it, or at least show me some evidence.

Minute of angle is minute of angle and cutting bullet holes is cutting bullet holes.[/B]

A downloaded 30-06 will provide wonderful accuracy you wouldn't complain about...

I don't download, I don't complain, and I do get very nice accuracy.

How's that for gasoline on the fire?
See? I'm doing my part...making a contribution to keep the discussion hot... ;)

:D :D :D

[Pointer]

There was too much meat damage and I plan to tame that load down for this years hunt.

It's not the powder charge... it's the bullet construction...and placement that prevents excessive meat damage...

Also try a heavier bullet that holds at least 95% of it's original mass.

There are a number of places to hit the elk/deer/moose effectively without destroying meat... :rolleyes:

Heart, lungs, upper 1/3 of the neck, head, lower 1/3 of the chest...and even between the hind legs about 10" below the anus... A little messy, but it works and doesn't damage meat if you clean it out in a timely manner. :D


Meat damage is a "wive's tale"... ;)

[Old Time Hunter]

.308 is plenty! I prefer a .444 or a .450, but I still believe in getting up close and personal. I pass on more than I can shoot, I will stalk for days trying to get closer. My average shot is probably less than 125 yards on Elk.

[Dave Haven]

...and even between the hind legs about 10" below the anus... A little messy, but it works and doesn't damage meat if you clean it out in a timely manner.:D Texas heart shot.:D

[Pointer]

Dave Haven
Texas heart shot.

I love it :D :D :D

BLOL :D :D :D

[taylorce1]

Texas Heart Shot!:barf:
That was the first discussion on this forum that I posted in. I still wouldn't do it no matter what I was hunting except for coyote and prarie dogs.

[Wild Bill Bucks]

30.06- 150 gr.BT- 2910fps Muzzle Velocity= Point Blank Range of 287 yards with 1776 ft lbs.- Mid range trajectory is 3" @ 145 yards.

.308- 150 gr BT- 2822fps Muzzle Velocity= Point blank range of 275 yards with 1599 ft lbs- Mid range trajectory is 3" @ 135 yards.

Looking in about 4 reloading manuels, I don't see enough difference to be argueing about.

[Harley Quinn]

The 300 Win Mag or H&H.
Majestic Animal. Use the gun that is appropriate.

Lot more energy and fps. But then you might not be able to shoot it as well as the 308. The placement and distance is very important.
At one hundred yards, it is one thing, at three hundred it is another.

The idea of use enough gun is still important. My thoughts;)

If you are calm, cool and collected, a good hunter and the terrain is not bad and can get close. Well that is what this board is all about, discussion.:D

HQ

[FirstFreedom]

I will be damn impressed if you can make a texas heart shot on a prairie dog - and even more impressed if you can forensically determine whether or not you did, from the remains.

[taylorce1]

I used the ballistics part of Federal web site to compare cartridge performance on the .270 Win, .308 Win, .30-06 Spr, and .300 Win mag. Ballistics were generated at 300 yards for sea level with a temp of 59 degrees and a 10mph cross wind.
http://www.federalcartridge.com/default.asp?br=1
I'll give you the best and worst performer with factory loads.

Bullets used

.270 150 grain Sierra Game King BC .480

.308 180 grain Nosler Partition BC .474

.30-06 180 grain Nosler Partition BC .474

.300 Win Mag 180 grain Speer Hot-Core SP BC .439

Velocity at 300yds in FPS

.300=2346
.308-2089

Energy at 300yds in ft-lbs

.300=2201
.308=1745

Wind drift at 300yds in inches

.270=6.3
.308=7.3

Trajectory at 300yds in inches

.300=-7
.308=-9

With this info there is little difference in these fine hunting cartridges at normal hunting ranges inside of 300 yards. There is a lot of factors that are not on this web site such as firearm used and length of barrel. But the answer is still yes the .308 is plenty for Elk.

Texas Heart Shots on prairie dogs are not hard to do as long as they are moving away and you have an eye witness in your back pocket!:D :D :D

[FirstFreedom]

In the unlikely event I can afford to go Elk gun hunting this fall, I will be down to 2 best choices for a primary rifle: An AR10 semi-auto in .308, or a Savage 110 in 7mm remmag. Since I've heard so many stories of lost elk, I like the idea of being able to double-tap - 1 perfectly placed shot, then a second shot as fast as I can pull the trigger, hopefully also in the vitals. Not to mention that the .308 is a bigger bullet than 7mm (180/.30 vs. 175/.28). But the Savage is likely to be more accurate, and lighter to carry around. But assuming I find a 180 gr .308 load that my AR can shoot into 2 MOA, and assuming no shots beyond 250 yards, then until I get my .30-06 or .35 whelen, which of these two would you choose as the primary - of course I'll also take the other of the 2 as a backup rifle. But what of this idea of a double-tap - is it unethical? I wouldn't think so as it would just be a "gravy" shot to the very good first shot. I would not want to lose any elk, let alone a trophy. Oh, and I ain't takin' my P17 in .30-06 into the field. :)

[Harley Quinn]

First Freedom,
One of the reasons I like my 760 pump. It is in 06 but it is still a heck of a good choice. Just the reason you are mentioning. Lever actions the same reason. Out to 250 yds. good stuff.

The 7mm mag has a better record for distance but it is still a bolt. Some are pretty good at the second shoot though or the third one, Practice comes to mind.;)

HQ:cool:

[taylorce1]

FF, I would use the Savage, first of all elk are not bulletproof second if you shoot the Savage well you probably won't have to shoot twice. I've only harvested two cow elk and hope to get a third elk this season. I shot one with a .30-06 and my second with a .270 Win.

Shot the first elk with a borrowed .30-06 is the only one I needed more than one bullet on. I was above her and to the side about 30 yards away, I aimed just behind her shoulder blades the bullet entered through her spine and exited her rib cage, she dropped where she stood. After I climbed down to her she was still alive, I totally missed the vitals, so I shot her behind the ear because her front legs were still working.

The second was taken at 250 yards broadside with the .270 150gn Hornady ammo. That cow spun around took a couple of steps and slid down the hill about ten feet. I took out both lungs and the bullet went clean through leaving an exit wound about the size of a half dollar.

The important thing with hunting is using a firearm you are comfortable with and using a bullet that functions well for type of firearm you are using. Don't use pistol bullets in rifles or rifle bullets in pistols when hunting large game unless that is what your firearm is designed to use. The most important thing is to know where to shoot the animal study the vital area from different angles. Plus a 7mm Rem Mag pushing a 175 grain bullet doesn't give up much to a 30 cal bullet in 180 grains, your 7mm will be devastating with a properly placed shot.

[BUSTER51]

let the flames begin ,the 33 cal is the perfect elk round others will work but nothing is better than a 33 ,338Win mag,340 Weatherby ,338 RUM, 338-378,338 laupa mag . the .308 will work but at long range a 33 gets her done better .and you will also be able to go for bigger game with it .:D Elk for dinner and a 33 to put it on the table ,sounds about right to me .

[DobermansDoItGoofy]

I have two .308's and a 375h&h... I prefer the .308 ie. fairly pleasant to shoot and versatile. The 375h&h is actually more versatile than some folks think & won't blow up game like a smaller higher velocity round(with the wrong bullet)but it's not the most pleasant round to shoot. My 243 and my 30/30 are very pleasant to shoot... I know of a fellow who routinely uses a TC Encore 375H&H with a bipod and muzzle break who shoots whitetail long range...and it works. What I like about the 308 is the short action and shorter barrel length make the rifle relatively light and handy...in much the same way a 30/30 is light and handy. In 308 vs. 30.06 I like the shorter action. Of course another set of 'elk' rounds that nobody's mentioned - are the 7mm Rem. and the 270&257 Weatherby... Lots of rounds will get the job done... :cool:

[Harley Quinn]

That is a real mans gun. LOL.

It needed the 26 inch barrel to be better then the 270 in a 22/24 inch barrel.
When you look at the mistakes Winchester has made in the past regarding rifles and calibers, it is very apparant why they are no longer in business.

8 mm Mauser in the FN 49, is a good choice. Why? Because I have one:D

HQ:cool:

[taylorce1]

I'm going to use my .338-06 this year on elk, I bought it with the hopes of a moose in my future and I didn't draw for an elk last year. Beautiful custom job on a 1903 action, or maybe I'll try my 35 Whelen I bought this year, probably not the stock is too pretty to bang up. I also picked up a .280 at a gun show I have about $15 in after trading, could use that since someone mentioned the 7mm calibers and I'm not afraid to bang that one around. With all that said I'll probably stick to my good o'l .270 though, I shoot that very well.

I don't think I would drop to the .25 caliber or the 6.5 for elk I like to use at least a 150 grains of lead to stop these beasties. I know some guys who hunt elk with .25-06 and .243's but their not for me. No Magnum rifles for me as well, unless you want to cout my .22 WMR ;) might land me in jail if I shoot an elk with that. Nothing wrong with the magnums just haven't needed one yet so don't flame at me.:D

[Jack O'Conner]

I doubt if many guides are impressed when a client states, "this dead elk I killed with my 338 magnum is a whole lot deader than the bull Jack killed with his .308"

Its easy to see who has been brainwashed by Craig Boddington and his journalist friends payrolled by HUNTING magazine. How do you like paying for that expensive ammo which pounds your shoulder into a painful bruise?

You can hunt elk with whatever you choose. I really do not care at all. But when someone says their rifle is better at killing I have to wonder about experience and common sense. Dad often stated to me that, "common sense ain't that common".
Jack

[mikejonestkd]

Jack,

Absolutely correct. Most of the time when hunting - more is just more...it doesn't make the animal any more dead than a ' lesser ' caliber.

If I remember correctly a professional elephant hunter by the name of Bell used many different rifles and finally decided that the 6.5 x 55 swede was the best for elephant hunting. The last time I checked an elk was smaller than an elephant.....

If you like shooting a super delux wizz bang ultra short super long death ray magnum then by all means keep using it and have a great hunt.

However, the elk will not be impressed.

a .308 win 180gr bonded bullet in the lungs will do the same as any of the fad magnums. AND most of us can shoot one better than the magnum.

[DobermansDoItGoofy]

I saw a nifty and beautiful little Rem.7 full stock mannlicher style for about $1400 in .350 Rem... I looked up the ballistics of the 350 Rem. and noted the 20 inch barrel of the Model 7....and thought that I'd struck gold ie. the 350 Rem...would give a little more ooomph in the short range... I liked the .350 Rem...but the more I looked at it and the prospects of having to reload it...and the cost vs. benefit...the more I realized 'again' that the little .308 is hard to beat. The .308/30-06's are not flashy corvettes or porsches - but just honest muscle cars that get the job done. :cool:

[Dave Haven]

The .308/30-06's are not flashy corvettes or porsches - but just honest muscle cars that get the job done. They're the Chevelle/Impala SS-396's that surprise the elitists with their performance.:D

[Pointer]

They're the Chevelle/Impala SS-396's that surprise the elitists with their performance.

Here, here!! :D

the little .308 is hard to beat.
The BIG 30-06 can do it! ;)

[kolob10]

I've shot ELK with .270 Win, 308 Win, 7MM MAG, 300 Win Mag. Every one went down with one shot within 50 yards. Ranges were from 50 yards to 275 yards. If I was going for a big bull, I would opt for the 7mm mag or 300's. Killing a cow vs a big bull is a bit different at any range. At 200 yards or under, any cartidge I mentioned or many others will suffice. I've hunted with a fellow who always hunts for cows (meat hunter) and he only takes head shots and under 100 yards. He loves hunting the timber. He has used a 30-30 succesfully at times. Shot placement over rides muzzle energy. Good shooting!

[maas]

338 win mag..... belived by many to be the best elk caliber ever. but a 308 would work fine.