View Full Version : Fat Guy Tactics And Training

March 27, 2006, 07:19 PM
OK..I'm serious...and Denny if you remember me from the Shot Show I'm both grey haired and rotund.

I have trouble bending over to tie my shoes. When I do "Tuck and rolls" that refers to me and Spiff eating breakfast. Im slow, arthritic and fat, although I can draw and shoot right quick. If I kneel behind a barricade, I'm not gettin up!

All of these training academies and schools semm to cater to the younger and fitter. Police training, of course is for 32 year old semi athletes...

My question is...whats out there for us physically challenged...the ones who aren't handicapped except by age and weight. Courses..or even some thoughts in different (must I use the word)..scenarios....

And yes I am trying to diet and I'm really not that decrepit, I can move pretty fast when I need to. But I'm sure not anyhting more than a chairborne Ranger...:)


March 27, 2006, 07:41 PM
I would think that the modified sit-up/leg-press motion required to pull Spiffy back up from the fast food vent at the mall after tactical operations would leave you all trim and fit, Wild!

Especially when he gets stuck occasionally!



March 27, 2006, 07:59 PM

I know a lot of bigger guys that can move. It sounds like you can do what you need to do in case of emergency. I would just try to implement a stretching routine. That'll help limber you up, no matter what your size is. Also maybe a few cardio sessions a week. Just short, 20-30 minutes of something to get your heart rate up. After a few weeks I am sure you'll be ninja rolling with ease and your physical stamina will be a lot better. I know if I don't work out regularly, then I feel really sick and sore.

March 27, 2006, 08:06 PM
outthink em... :D

Thats a good point, like you if I squat down behind cover I aint going to be doing any acrobatics. Ima thinkin that as we get older we have to put that grey matter and experience to work to make up for the physical deficit.

So a course for us older guys stressing grey matter over the physical might be more relevant. turn the confrontation from a matter of physical prowess to one of tactics.

March 27, 2006, 08:06 PM
Getting fitter (which I can do ) is not the issue...the issue is how should the AARP set train..or are their courses desinged for the AARP crowd.

Illl be 60 some day :) I hope


March 27, 2006, 08:14 PM
pfffffttt! all those einsteinian ways of thinking and the fat smelly old man hasnt yet figured out that he (as well as myself) can get to a prone position quickly, and safely, thanks to the bulge of soft armor surrounding the midsection. no need to drop to a knee, which can be injurious, just do a belly flop to the ground.
don't worry about engaging multiple targets, just bend your legs so your feet are up and i'll use them to steer you to the enemy. it'll be like a really big pea-shooting ma-duece.


but seriously, you should see the wildman run to break up fights in the crowd at hockey games or boxing. whats amazing is that his knees dont bounce that belly up to his eyebrows. :p

better yet, wait until you are 65 and confined to a wheel chair, we'll get Steve to mount a couple hi powers to the armrests and i'll pivot you around to the bad guys.

March 27, 2006, 08:16 PM
OK Wild, the # one tactic...
(a) assume a good sitting position
(b) raise both knees as high as you can get 'em
(c) press your head through between your knees
(d) kiss your butt goodby

OK, small attempt at humor (veeeeeery small). I'f you're really serious...sorry about that.

gordo b.
March 27, 2006, 08:48 PM
I am 60 years old and 5'11" 230 down from 240 pounds. I played college football at 190-200 and only dropped to the 180 in Airborne/Ranger training in 1965-66 . I weighed under 200 in my 40s and have gained consistantly since about 51 when my knees had me start cutting back mtn biking until at 55 I pretty much quit going with the kids! Of course THAT put on 20 pounds!
I quit regulary drinking a few beers aweek and cut meal sizes the last year and promptly lost 10 pounds. I now walk a couple miles a day up local hills or on my wife's treadmill since I hung a TV infront of it! I COULD do more, but -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- I am a truck/bus inspector and am crawling doing situps under vehicles all day (mostly) with some heavy lifting and ranch chores. I intend to stay mobile and strong many more years and MUNCH vitamins and Glucosiamine and Omega 3s like some folks eat frys and sodas.
That said, I can't sprint as fast as I could in training, and of course can only RUN half a mile at most. I don't like doing the 1 legged hopping retreat(while shooting and hitting:D ) as currently taught as it could blow a knee and then I'd have to get that surgery the doc told me to get 5 years ago! I still flop the baricades but use a hand to help me and my 30 pounds of equiptment up if it is available. In short, there IS life after 60! BTW I know some other 60+ HSLD ex operators that could smoke my butt being they are taller and skinnier and ride a bike ect. BUT I still think I could hang in there in a hand to hand situation , I just won't be kicking above the waist anymore:p

March 27, 2006, 09:02 PM
Like I've said in previous posts, this would be beneficial to me as well. I can barely walk, let alone run. It is part of the reason why I CCW as I am a weakened animal just waiting for jackals to see what they mistakingly think as a lame AND unprepared duck.

March 27, 2006, 09:14 PM
Wild, I have a friend with the same problem. He is a big man. 6' 3" and about 300 pounds. He can move just fine but when he kneels down it takes all day to get back up. He is arthritic and is a diabetic. Dieting and exercise has not helped. So what he has done is learn to shoot with either hand from various types of cover and no cover at all. He is extremely quick on the draw and placing his first 2 or 3 shots on target accurately. He has never taken any type of class or instruction. He is purely self taught. He is also very good at shooting on the move going towards and away from the target. He figures that any handicap he may have as far as movement and cover can be offset by accurate, and fast shot placement before his attacker even has a chance to do anything. He carries two guns and is deadly with either hand. You would'nt think much of him when you look at him. But I would'nt want him shooting at me. Even if I drew first.

March 27, 2006, 10:22 PM
While I am a bit younger than some of the other posters (37), I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis 11 years ago. The whole left side of my body is weaker than my right, fortunately I'm right handed. I walk with a foot/ankle brace and sometimes use a cane. Moving quickly and changing positions is challenging for me. I've really wanted to try IDPA but I'm not sure how that will work for me.


smiling cobra
March 27, 2006, 10:37 PM
yes..i never thought i would get old...arthritic...with artificial joints..young men...i do not need excercise advice...the man asked for tactical advice...

March 27, 2006, 10:55 PM

Likewise I'm of the 'round' persuasion by genetic default and by profession (I sit in front of a computer with occasional days behind a camera). Thinking about taking up IDPA if I can find a local spot for that, and I just ordered an elliptical so maybe I can loose some belly, and get closer to the ground for the tactical long range shooting I want to do...

Best wishes...

March 27, 2006, 11:02 PM
Since you can "draw and shoot right quick" and your able to "move pretty fast" when you need to, obviously reflexes aren't an issue. So, what exactly is inhibited?

Are we talking about the fact that barrel rolls and back flips are no longer an option?

March 27, 2006, 11:20 PM
I'm glad you brought this up. While I'm not fat I am physically challenged as a result of 15 operations because of my wounds suffered in Vietnam. When I was 40 years old I walked like a 60 year old. Now that I'm almost 60 I can't imagine what I must look like when I walk. (except maybe an easy target.)

Lateral movement for me probably looks like I'm stumbling and kneeling down and getting up is a real chore. Running is a lost cause. On bad days I use a cane which I must admit can be a deadly weapon in it self if used properly.

I exercise regularly (3 days a week) to stay in shape but I do have my limits. Thankfully I am a natural when it comes to shooting. Not bragging but I can shoot with either hand and do it very well. The first time I ever shot a handgun or rifle was in the military and I did it like I had been doing it all my life. So like the one poster said, hopefully my handicap can be overcome by my fast accurate shot placement otherwise I'm probably a deadman.

I wish there were some defensive shooting courses available strictly for the physically challenged. Everything I know was self taught or just carried over from my military training. Of course practice, practice, practice never hurts either.

March 28, 2006, 12:42 AM
Are we talking about the fact that barrel rolls and back flips are no longer an option?

Barrel rolls? Thats what I look like :) Spiff too, but hes 30 and is fat like a Sumo is fat....you dont want to mess with him....

But you are right...the hard physical activity of training has passed me by...and even in a defensive scenario (god I hate that word) what do us challenged folk do...OK terrorist at the mall opens up....fit guy runs for cover to engage...fat guy waddles, out of breath while AK rounds zing past his ears

I wish there were some defensive shooting courses available strictly for the physically challenged.

Thats what I am talking about...


March 28, 2006, 08:35 AM
WA - for some reason I have a feeling that in a (cringe) defensive scenario, adrenaline will handle enough of the movement woes. But, it's just a feeling.

Confucius say, man who find tall cover, no have to crouch.

Ok, I'm finished kidding. I'm not sure it's necessary to develop a training program geared towards a group of people who - if they were to do their own basic physical training - could solve a bulk of their problem.

Some would say laziness is the issue - not lack of specialized training.

I see a need for wheelchair bound or other physically handicapped defensive training as that situation is not solved by a little aerobics or light weight training.

Someone in your position needs to work out - plain and simple. It's important to regain the range of motion, in addition to strength. Strengthening the leg muscles (quads and hamstrings) will do a world of good for someone who has a hard time rising from a crouched position. 20 minutes a day on a stationary bike would suffice and you'd be surprised how much weight you'd lose.

Can't sacrifice 20 minutes a day? Well, then your not serious enough about the topic at hand, or your well-being in general. :(

Besides, I thought you hardly carry these days! :p Practice dialing 911! ;) :)

March 28, 2006, 09:05 AM
I know where you are coming from. I will never have the strength back in my knees. I gave that to Uncle Sugar running on the flight deck for 12 hours a day in flight deck boots with 110 pounds of chain around my neck. The only way to do away with my DJD is total knee replacements, and I'm not ready to take that step. Thus, duck walking is out for me, as are other knee flexion manuevers. I also need to drop some weight, which I know will help the knee problem. If I cannot drop the weight to avoid a MI though, I don't think I will be dropping the weight to train more efficiently. As it is, I train with what I've got. It's tactics that prevail, not athleticism. It's simply a matter of adapting tactics, and to do that, one must understand the "why" behind the tactic, not just the "do". That is why when I am in a class, I drive the instructors nuts wanting to know why.

As our general population gets older and fatter, I think you will see more shooting schools popping up for fat seniors. The problem is, shooting schools have traditionally been law enforcement based to gain legitimacy. The first thing we must do is establish the general notion among people that a gun for defense is as necessary as a fire extinquisher for a fire. Then, as more seniors buy guns and learn to use them effectively, these schools WILL appear. Keep in mind to, as the present day trainers grow older, this will give them more material to teach. Old Jeff Cooper sure dropped the ball on that one huh?

There might be a market for HoverRound rifle scabbards...........Nah.....I didn't say that!

On the plus side.......remember that fat BG absorbing six .357 magnum shots and continuing the fight? I cannot remember the exact incident, but it was impressive. If a person is shot, fat could be an advantage, closing wound channels like self sealing tires! ( Hey, I'm trying to think of some advantage here! ;) ) I'll bring this up next time I'm in Princeton. It could end up being one hell of a class!

March 28, 2006, 09:19 AM
I have started to get back in the routine of physical fitness which I had avoided taking part in for a couple years and eating healthier than I have . I'm only a couple pounds overweight, but I even have found myself not been able to move fast, lift heavy objects, or just have any energy to do anything.
I found this a great disadvantage not only in the daily activities of my daily life, but how it would effect if I was in a position to defend myself or react in an emergency where my physical abilities would play a role.

What I'm trying to say is don't assume a weapon of any kind is a substitute for not being physically fit.

If you are wheelchair bound, then you only have a limited choice, but if you can improve your body physically, even if you think it's too much work and think it's impossible, being physically fit is as important, if not more for to self-defense than just going to a range shooting at a stationary target. Because in the real world, your opponent may not and probably won't sit still like a cardboard target and you may have to move as fast, if not faster, than your opponent.

March 28, 2006, 10:39 AM
Good point Mr. WA, another consideration for us old fat guys (Also worn out on Flight Decks) is that the BG's recognize us as easy targets. So I am of the opinion that the degree of risk rises with age and avoirdupois.

March 28, 2006, 11:39 AM
I am living proof it can be done. I've gone from 320 to 189 (so far) in not quite two years. When they started calling me a diabetic and threatened to cut my legs off one at a time in about 20 years, it got real serious.

Now the numbers are those of a "healthy" man and no medication.

All I had to do is quit eating.

March 28, 2006, 12:10 PM
One real consideration is escalation of force. You may need to consider an escalation to lethal force sooner than others would as you may not be able to use other options. Something to consider and plan for.

Funny you should mention that...one of the benefits of back pocket carry with a mouse gun is discreet speed...why...simple

Joe Trained CCW carrying a 1911 strong side sees a potential threat, but not a threat that would translate into lethality yet...he has a choice, arms dangling or reaching towards hip placing hand on gun..the horns of a dilemma...he is sitting back or ESCALATING...everyone understands the threat inherent in placing hand on hip in a threat situation...escalating in and of itself can mean indictment...

Notice btw how cops will have hand on gun butt as discreetly as possible in low level threat scenarios (god I hate that word)...

Fat Pocket Carryer is under no such dilemma...at even the appearance of a threat he can reset hands casually in back pocket....he is now in position to fight or not with no obvious escalation.

Not even counting the draw speed


March 28, 2006, 12:48 PM
for those of us who do wear clothes that can fit around our inner waist band holsters and do carry strong side, having the extra girth does actually give an added benefit: turn to the side so your strong side is not visible to them. you can put your weak hand up as if you are ready to comply, strong arm can be reaching for gun.

have i mentioned how tactical i am?

March 28, 2006, 01:21 PM
Cant always turn though...

I think IWB has the potentiality to be the slowerwas to present if you are overweight....even if one wears pants that fit properly (like you, unlike me), one still must contend with the jelly donuts lopping over ones belt. Shoulder rig entails one pushing the holster forward with ones weak side arm so that one can clear ones man boobs whilst drawing (slow)...OWB is fast but not stealthy...

Back pocket rules for tubbies


March 28, 2006, 01:41 PM
FYI - those jelly rolls are only there when your pants are 4 sizes too small and they push the rolls out from where they normally are. pants that actually fit go OVER the fat, not squeezing it like a pushup jock-strap.

besides, i dont think pocket carry would work for me. my mitts when i make a fist are 12 inches around, would be more if i had to grasp a gun and try to pull it out of a small back pocket. its difficult enough to pull an item out of the super-duper-large cargo pockets.

March 28, 2006, 01:48 PM
Thats why I wear jeans rather than cargo pants, makes my pocket gun more acessible.

Hand size is something to consider too...are we then at the point of conceding that THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL TRUTH IN TACTICAL TRAINING? Can there ever be a one size fits all solution? And if not...what happens to all the "Whats the Best Way to Carry X" threads?


March 28, 2006, 05:35 PM
One real consideration is escalation of force. You may need to consider an escalation to lethal force sooner than others would as you may not be able to use other options.

One good thing about having problems is that you are not going to be held to the same standard in the escalation of force. As Erick said given your limitations you will need to resort to the gun sooner, with less risk of criminal penalty. No training is going to change your limitations , so just do what you can and do it the best you can.

March 28, 2006, 05:41 PM
are we then at the point of conceding that THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL TRUTH IN TACTICAL TRAINING?

5 foot 6 and weigh enough for there to be at least 2 of me according to those charts. Bad heart, bad lungs, bad back, bad legs and hamstrings are at least an inch shorter than they ought to be. If I tried to stretch something is going to pop or snap apart.

Everything and everyone is a lethal threat to me. I could not withstand any kind of assault except a verbal one. If I went to the ground the only way I have a prayer of winning is to collapse on top of my opponent and thereby smother them. Grappling is what I do when I try to get hold of something to help me get up again.

I can do the IDPA/IPSIC courses, but I modify them to meet my needs and restrictions. That includes adjusting speed, using cover differently that originally envisioned, and considering more "defensive" moves than "offensive" ones. If I can continue to engage targets from cover without moving., I'll choose to do that instead of bringing on a heart attack or ripping my back apart.

I found a few ways to carry that work for me. IWB does not work, so it's mostly OWB at 3:30 or 4:00 - with a jacket or vest (NOT a shoot-me vest but either a suit or "cowboy" style that hangs down past the beltline). Some days it's with a vest (see above) with the concealed pockets on the inside or between the inner & outer fabrics. Some days its a pocket holster. Most days there is a BUG and a belly-gun, but not always both.

I do not go looking for a "scenario" to be in. I usually try real hard to avoid any situation that might develop into a "scenario." Verbal judo is good, but there is nothing wrong with backing away from something or somebody if it can be done safely. I'm not going to try to be where the S is H'tting the F, and I going to try to be away from places where the probability is great. I work on situational awareness instead.

If I happen to be in a mall (does not happen that often) that is being shot up by some deranged person, I'm more likely to thinking E&E (please - the thought of a fat old fart waddling zig-zag from planter to doorway is too funny to contemplate) than how to tactically engage & assault the BG. If I can't clear the area fast enough I may become rolling cover for any SWAT guys that show up.

What I'm trying to say is - I work on the skills and moves that are most likely to be needed in the settings I am most likely to find myself in. I do not see ninja rolls or vaulting over parked cars in my future, so I do not practice them. I see parking lot/parking garage stickups, being a "bystander" at a shop&rob withdrawal, or remotely some road rage as my greatest worries. Two out of those three can be handled by being a good witness unless something goes very bad. If it does go bad I hope I practiced the right skill sets, and that my general appearance gives me good camoflage as a non-threat. For the one situation where I most likely will need to do something, I can only hope that I have the inner resolve to do what needs to be done and then worry about what consequences may arise.

There are different tactics for different folks. Don't try to be what you aren't.

stay safe.


March 28, 2006, 05:44 PM
One good thing about having problems is that you are not going to be held to the same standard in the escalation of force. As Erick said given your limitations you will need to resort to the gun sooner, with less risk of criminal penalty.

Boy I dont know about that absent some objective evidence of "problems"...ie wheelchair vis a vis just being a fat boy


March 28, 2006, 11:55 PM
I am a real lardbutt myself... over 300 lbs, on a 6'-2" frame... a month short of 36 years old...

that said, there is NO reason a fat man cannot move decently (and deceptively)

and FAT i am... but i am also muscular... the weight causes stamina problems... but i CAN run, and i CAN move...

the trick here is to not let it ALL be fat... there hasta be muscles in there too... the way to that is to BE ACTIVE...

my regimen? take stairs instead of elevators... park a bit further and walk... do some things to stay ACTIVE... don't be lazy just 'cause you're fat...

I may not have the ability to run 1 mile, but i can walk 5 miles at a reasonable pace without killing myself...

I have been told that my speed of movement in situations where it's needed is EXTREMELY deceptive... fat I am, slow I ain't...

March 29, 2006, 06:24 AM

Boy I dont know about that absent some objective evidence of "problems"...ie wheelchair vis a vis just being a fat boy

I'm talking about those who have posted prior who are arthritic, up in age, combined with the weight. When facing a deadly encounter where the options are to run or fight, Carl Lewis would probably be asked why he chose to fight. Great Grandpa Threegun with 80 plus years of life, two metal knees, arthritis, and a hump on his back that rivals a man from Notre dame probably won't be asked. I agree that just being fat won't cut it.

March 29, 2006, 12:05 PM
I agree that just being fat won't cut it.

Thats the rub...subjectively I may be entitled to an early escalation, objectively I am not.


March 29, 2006, 12:32 PM
I do know a guy here in Ohio that offers defensive classes for the older and uhhmm, physically challenged. If I remember correctly, he is ex-SF, and current fed. (but still a good guy) ;) Listed with the AG as one of the best and most reputable trainers in the 'industry' today. Although a LONG way from you, if you got vacation time, I could give you his info. :)

There are guys out there who specialize in this area, but not enough of them. There should be, because there are more old, infirm, out of shape people in the US than there are perfect people.....;)

March 29, 2006, 02:15 PM
Derius, can you provide some info on this guy?

March 29, 2006, 02:44 PM
eat as much as you can and gain enough weight to where, the bullets stop before they make it to any vital organs. Or getting to your wallet is such a disturbing idea:barf: no one will go for it ;) :p :D lol. Gotta think out side the box.

David Armstrong
March 29, 2006, 04:34 PM
One of the advantages of being a trainer who has developed some physical problems over the years is that one can recognize the problems with others and work with them. Yes, way too many trainers today are focused almost exclusively on the uber-warrior mentality and design their training around all those folks with totally unrealistic understandings/expectations of what they will encounter and what will be needed to survive. Nothing wrong with that, but it does give a false perspective of the type of training that most need. Having set the stage, I have done a number of low-intensity courses for those who are the more typical gun owner and CCW user. I've pretty much gotten away from most training other than for CCW licensing these days, but if there would be enough interest I would offer a 1 or 2 day course designed around the needs of those of us who are older, balder, fatter, slower, stiffer, smellier, etc. When one looks at the realities DGU a lot of that high-speed and low-drag stuff doesn't seem nearly as important.

March 29, 2006, 04:39 PM

Thats me, per SWMBO!


March 29, 2006, 05:00 PM
Some of you may recall the name Chic Gaylord in the context of holster making and sometime writing. I think he was a New Yorker and his book came out in the 1950's. Don't remember the name at the moment but it is illustrated with photographs of himself (and others). He was not a slim guy, so take heart. And there are no skinny football players.

On the other hand, Chic Gaylord did not talk tactics in his writings nor did many of the other writers of that period. They certainly discussed gunfighting but they may have been thinking along different lines. Tactics usually means how the infantryman moves about on the battlefield. But I just remembered we (the government) declares war on everything nowadays, except for countries we actually invade. If the police are at war, it must be with us.

What do people mean when they say "tactics?"

March 29, 2006, 08:35 PM
if there would be enough interest I would offer a 1 or 2 day course designed around the needs of those of us who are older, balder, fatter, slower, stiffer, smellier, etc.
That fits me to a tee except the smellier part. My ole' lady gives me a bath everyday! ;) I should be so lucky. :cool:

I'd be interested in such a course.


Dave R
March 29, 2006, 10:25 PM
WA, I think you have found an under-served segment of the shooting/training market. And you'd think Jeff Cooper would have figured that out. He's about 120 years old now, isn't he?

Anyway, I don't think anyone offers and old/heavy training regimen. And there ought to be one. Someone should be able to figure an optimum course of action (or at least a better course of action than one could think of when the ballon goes up...) and package the course.

So figure one out, and get spiffy to teach it, then collect royalties and buy a few more collectibles. :D

March 29, 2006, 10:41 PM
tegemu: gimme a day or so to dig up his number and relavent info. PM me so I remember what I'm supposed to be looking for. :D

March 29, 2006, 10:43 PM
can i get paid with happy meals?

March 30, 2006, 05:35 AM
I've pretty much gotten away from most training other than for CCW licensing these days, but if there would be enough interest I would offer a 1 or 2 day course designed around the needs of those of us who are older, balder, fatter, slower, stiffer, smellier, etc.Dave,
You could count me in.
PM me if this ever happens.
Best regards,

Don P
March 30, 2006, 06:55 PM
:) I'm all for it so count me in! At 53+ years of wear and tear, over-weight,under-exersised, might as well add under-paid, taking more pills for heart problems than I care to think of. It truely is a shame that we are spread out so much in this great land that we could not start a training center for us common folks to attend. To teach us fat guys how to better master the needed skills that our worn out bods say to us when we try,(What are you crazy, you'll never walk again!) stupid don't do it. Dame that HURTS! If I only had the skills to pass on instead of needing the skills I think this could be something BIG! No pun intended. At the least make a few bucks at it.

March 30, 2006, 10:13 PM
Remember that guy who got shot on a bus (I think) and his rolls of fat prevented the bullet from penetrating his vitals?
That's right.
Get fatter.

March 30, 2006, 10:35 PM
i heard they are making OWH now. Outside the Wheelchair Holsters. Maybe you can try one of those.

March 30, 2006, 11:50 PM
Great question, Wildalaska! I feel your pain :) I used to enjoy taking vacations at various shooting schools, but I just can't do that any more. It would be great if Gunsite, or The Chapman Academy offered a course in defensive shooting that didn't require the usual amount of athletics.

The last place I went was Chapman for their advanced pistol class. I just did as well as I could and concentrated on my shooting. I explained my limitations before hand and they told me it would be no problem. It was still a very worthwhile class, even if I was always "tail-end-charlie", or even sat some exercises out.

David Armstrong
March 31, 2006, 02:15 PM
It truely is a shame that we are spread out so much in this great land that we could not start a training center for us common folks to attend.
That is what I was trying to do a while back before I shifted focus and began doing almost all CHL work. After training a lot of high-speed/low-drag types and SWAT officers and dedicated shooters and so on it was a real eye-opener to deal with a bunch of "common folk" as it were. Really caused me to change a lot of my training philosophy. Anyway, it looks like there might be a need for it, so I'll start looking into developing a program for this Fall (nobody likes training in southern Louisiana in the Summer!!). How about some basic input--one day or two, handgun or combo handgun/long-gun, shooting versus general fighting tactics, etc.

March 31, 2006, 02:46 PM
I would be interested as well !

March 31, 2006, 03:51 PM
Dave it you want to vacation in Alaska maybe I can help you set up a course here...plenty of jellyrolls hangin around the Last frontier


Don P
March 31, 2006, 08:28 PM
:D Deffinately count me in Dave. My thought is a 2 day course for defense and hand gun use. Just my thought. I think the 2 days would be needed for all us sloowwww movers. Seriously 2 days and we would not be rushing through things and spend the time needed.:D On the other hand would not hesitate to train in Alaska, only thing there would be the wife would be at my side.

March 31, 2006, 09:48 PM
This kind of training might be just the ticket for me, instead of the C.A.R. sytem, which is usually reserved for military and LE. I would be very interested in such a class, but I think I will still go ahead with the CAR training as it may be my last chance before succumbing to my arthritic body. Pray for me guys! :o

Blackwater OPS
March 31, 2006, 10:19 PM
Where is that pick of you in your ninja gear?

April 2, 2006, 09:54 AM
Dave, your idea and location is intriguing to this NE Fla boy. Please keep us posted. If you get real serious about it maybe it would be a good idea to develop a list of interested parties.

Plomk Klink
April 3, 2006, 07:50 AM
Fighting is a young mans game, thats why you have sons.

April 3, 2006, 10:58 AM
Fighting is a young mans game, thats why you have sons.
Like hell it is! My son spent 4 1/2 years with the 82nd Airborne Division and served in Desert Storm in 91' and I would have much rather went in his place.
So are you suggesting I should ask my son to fight my battles for me, we're not attached at the hip so he'll be of no help to me if I need to defend myself.
If anything I would step up and protect him and his family. I'm "older" and would rather sacrifice my life so "he and his" could live.

April 3, 2006, 11:24 AM
I echo that sentiment RR!

David Armstrong
April 3, 2006, 03:21 PM
OK, let's do it! I'll start working up a program, tentatively looking at Fall 2006 or Spring 2007. I should be done rebuilding the house by then, assuming another hurrican doesn't get us this season! Thanks for the offer of Alaska, but let's try one in the lower 48 and see how it goes. Heck, if it's a winner we may take it on the road<G>!
I'll take advice and suggestions at my e-mail address rather than clutter up the thread. I see some already here that looks good. So if you want to have some input send it to me:

[email protected]

April 5, 2006, 12:54 PM
Sounds like you guys are on the right track.

I had an early opportunity to work with a number of physically challenged folks. I have found that more personalized instruction is required and that it is difficult to standardize a coarse of instruction without significant compromise by some students.
Nor is the answer addressed bywatering a coarse down to the point that it becomes little more than organized range time.

Instruction should be geared to what You,CAN DO and Not what someone thinks you should be able to do if you were healthier, thinner, younger etc.
There is no question most all of us could do with more exercise and a few less pounds, but it is short sighted at the least to simply tell someone desirous of training that first they must lose weight to conform to an arbitrary ideal standard.

Many instructors (myself included) will do customized or even "One on One" instruction if needed.

Things to look for:

An instructor who teaches "Tactics" not just marksmanship and gun handling.

A curriculum Customized to your strengths, but with considerations for your weaknesses. IE If you can't kneel behind cover, but you can move well when standing, then concentrate on moving and shooting. Learn to get out of the danger zone.

If we have a physical challenge we are more likely to have a decreased sense that we will be in control in certain situations. Throw us a curve concerning our disability and the situation can bring on panic.
For this reason, injured shooter drills and drills from awkward non traditional positions are even more important for these folks.

Is this person dependent on another person for their activities of daily living? If so, both need to be trained, not just the one. And they must be trained as a team.

We are even promoting classes for couples (Non disabled) to train together using a team approach to home defense...

You got the right idea guys ! Go for it!!

April 5, 2006, 05:22 PM
Yeah, what he said. :D

April 6, 2006, 02:51 PM
I'm kind of getting there in terms of being old and out of shape. In my teens and twenties I studied a lot of different martial arts and basically stayed in shape. Now I'm almost 40 and even though i'm not real heavy (chunky definately), I'm out of shape. Honestly I tried to get back into my 20's level of training, but if I try to do any sort of kick above my waist, my back is screwed up for a week. I'm sticking with self defense training that focuses on hand punched, blows, joint locks and throws, and maybe some knees and stomps. One thing on your side about being real heavy is you have a lot of weight to throw around. The Trooper Coates video unfortunately shows a fat guy knocking down a fit trooper. We got to focus on surprise, strength and the burst of energy and speed. Old and fat guys are not made to fight more that a round or two.

April 10, 2006, 05:54 PM
I have found that Yavapai Firearms Academy is pretty good with the elderly/infirm/fat/slow etc.Louis Awerbuck is one of the best. One not mentioned is Ken Campbell in Indiana. he has been a leader in teaching civilian self defense in the Midwest. I believe he is now an elected Sheriff but he used to work with Yavapai.

April 10, 2006, 06:08 PM
Where does this guy in Indiana teach?

PPCLI 2 can.
April 12, 2006, 12:16 AM
gettin back to your fat man manouvers id rig myself up like robo cop :D
complete with walther that pops out of your belly button when you burp.
you could mount luggers under your " pecks " and when you raise your arms they release the ' hounds ' so to speak :eek:

April 12, 2006, 12:50 AM
I keep hearing from you guys saying you put off a knee replacement for 7 years and now the pain is so bad but you do not want the surgery....HAVE YOU TALKED TO SOMEONE WHO GOT THE NEW KNEES LATELY?

By luck i am around a lot of guys about 5 to 10 years older than I, many of whom played pro football, and all of whom played big ten college ball in the 60's and 70's. Every one of them has come back after having the surgery and "why did I wait so long?" I was at lunch with 3 of them just a couple of weeks ago and was surprised that all three had gone in and had knees done in the last few months. recovery is amazingly fast, They were all walking on crutches in a day. without crutches within the week and two were skiing in Colorado two months after surgery. All three said no pain. All three said they felt better overall than they had in years. That the knee pain was preventing good sleep, good excercise, and just good living. I was really surprised to hear that one had had a hip done the same day. He was able to dance at his daughters wedding 45 days after the operation, with no pain and no efforts.

Ask around, find out who is doing it, track down a good one and you will be amazed at how good they are.

PS I am scheduled to have knuckle replacement in three weeks, after my hockey season ends, I have two knuckles on my right hand that will not work any more, anticipated recovery time is two weeks

David Armstrong
April 12, 2006, 04:36 PM
Dave it you want to vacation in Alaska maybe I can help you set up a course here...plenty of jellyrolls hangin around the Last frontier

I'll keep that in mind, BTW. A trip to Alaska is one of my goals to meet before getting to old to enjoy it.

April 12, 2006, 04:39 PM
David if you are going to set up a course I may very well just go to wherever for it


April 22, 2006, 12:54 PM
hi all.hey trip20.. you said something i agree with.about some of us are wheelchair bound..i use a mobility scooter when out n about.walk w/cand otherwise.things need to be addressed about us handicappers that cant move well. if someone kicks my cane out from me i faw down.i must shoot one handed when standing [colt .45] two handed when sitting.at our clubs ccw practice, our r o trys to find alternative ways for me to do certain drills.always maintain balance is rule #1[.he spots me as well].i do wish idpa would discover us disabled ccw shooters. there is a wealth of peeps here. what so ya think thank you for your time

April 22, 2006, 01:01 PM
dvc9 i agree whole heartly what u said ... yes yes

April 28, 2006, 11:10 AM
... small calibers won't penetrate deeply enough to do harm

:p :D

Seriously though, light cardio a few days a week will make a huge difference whether its biking, walking, stairmaster, etc. Seems like ducking, rolling, etc are out of the question. But I think the most practical thing is to shoot and move if you're in the open and get to cover as quickly as possible and then stay put. Return fire if necessary. Watch your six.

You're experienced with your gun, quick, probably a very good shot and smart enough to know which is "soft cover" (eg drywall, car doors) and which is "hard cover" (concrete, thick tree, car engine block, etc.) and to choose hard cover where possible.

Double Naught Spy
May 4, 2006, 08:29 PM
A big part of the reason for me carrying concealed was that I was no longer young enough to be bulletproof, no longer young enough to be very good as fighting (slower reflexes, and yes, I know of some martial arts that would help), my retreat speed sucks, and I now look for unlocked gates when running away, not a strong enouhg portion of the fence for me to hop over.

Bullets are not bulletproof, but are faster than my reflexes, faster than my retreat speed (although I am still a big proponent of evasion), and can often simply pass through fences as needed.

I am also old enough and have done well enough in life to own things (not crap like in college) that are attractive to those who have not earned enough to buy them for their own. Concealed carry with lots of practice seemed like a reasonable option.

Don P
August 24, 2006, 09:59 AM
I was just curious if any progress has been made with the possible training sessions for us larger people? Possible date and time and location?:cool:

August 24, 2006, 10:56 AM
I know this is an old thread, and I haven't really read it all, so excuse me if this is redundant. But, I get this question in my martial arts class all the time, and the answer is NOT what people want to hear.

What should I do if weight/age/disability prohibits me from moving the way the standard training requires?

Answer: Train, train, train!

Now, let me follow up. I am NOT recommending that you screw up your knees by hopping up and down on them. I am NOT recommending that you give yourself a heart attack by running 15 miles untrained. I am NOT recommending that you dislocate your joints trying to reach and bend in ways you are not conditioned for. What I am recommending is that you BEGIN to condition yourself.

Pick a move/technique that you would like to be able to do. Run it slowly. Do it a few times each day. If you can't get up and down on your knees quickly, then start out with a few slow leg squats. If you can't run quickly, then take a walk each day. If you can't draw quickly, then draw slowly. TEACH your muscles the movements that they need. Teach them slowly, and when you need to do it fast, your body WILL remember.

As you get more comfortable moving, then step it up. Add some weight to the leg squats. Walk more briskly, and eventually, run. Draw more quickly. But, when you notice your draws are sloppy, when you notice your knees hurt or your heart is racing too fast, slow it back down again.

In short, TRAIN!!! There is NO substitute for training. There is no way to rationalize, think, or substitute your way past the need to train properly. Your own physique merely dictates the level at which your training needs to begin. If you're too old, too fat, or too lazy (like me), the answer is to suck it up, recognize your own starting point (notice I did not say "limitations") and begin your training.

August 24, 2006, 11:23 AM
Wildalaska, while not the exact same thing, I've run into similar types of problems attending IDPA matches while shooting with my department issued duty-belt, weapon, and holster. The IDPA requires certain types of shooting courses of fire, and if you don't shoot the course "their" way you get penalties for doing it out of sequence etc. My answer to that is that I speak with the Range Officer prior to the match, and let him know that I'm not shooting the match to compete with the other people, I'm shooting the match to train and to compete with myself. I will shoot the targets in the same order that I would if I was on the street in that same situation.

If the course of fire requires the prone or kneeling or other positions that you just feel you can't do, then speak to the range officer prior to the match and let him know you will not be doing those for medical reasons, if they want to penalize your time for it, then oh well, at least you are still getting the practical training that you are looking for, as long as you still maintain all the safety rules I can't see anyone having a problem with this.

Don P
November 3, 2006, 12:44 PM
I know this thread is a little on the old side and Im curious if anything has been finalized about dates and a place for it all to happen?:cool:

David Armstrong
November 3, 2006, 02:47 PM
Interestingly, I wrote to wildalaska just a while back trying to find this thread again. OK, here is what I've come up with. 2 days, nothing particularly stressful, a strong focus on basics with alternatives for the physically challenged. Emphasis on defensive handgun tactics, with a little work with shotgun and/or rifle. I've got the range (assuming it wasn't washed away in the most recent flood!) and will provide lead instruction and equipment, certificates of completion, etc. BUT I want someone to commit to a back-up/assistant role. I've had some more health issues, and I don't want to have everyone organize this and then have it fall through because I'm having a bad day. I can provide a limited number of firearms of various types for visitors. I figured $100 for two days training to include targets and such. And March/April seems to be a good time to do this here in Louisiana. Input??

November 4, 2006, 05:20 PM
it's always been survival of the fittest. :p

[had to]


dale taylor
November 4, 2006, 07:29 PM
Wildalaska, As an aged (70), 220 lb diabetic with old eyes, ESRD, on dialysis, post cataract surgery this is the best thread in a month. Thanks Dale daleltaylor[email protected]

Don P
November 4, 2006, 07:59 PM
Dave, if we can get some definative dates I will be willing to be your assistant and or helper. My company starts to accept vacation requests after the first of the year so we have till then. As long as you condust the training part I'll be the go for! For the wife and I we will have our personal weapons for the training as well as ammo. You can PM me and I'll give you our address and phone number. Don and Marsha:cool:

David Armstrong
November 6, 2006, 04:13 PM
On the dates....here is the situation. I'm in a casino area. That means that room rates tend to get a little high on the weekends, but are pretty reasonable during the week. The closest town to the range is Kinder, LA and the major municipal area is Lake Charles, LA, about 30 miles away. I can be available any block of time that does not include Wednesday. What's your pleasure, gents?

Don P
November 6, 2006, 07:34 PM
to this are how about a Monday-Tuesday training. This would give all who plan on attending the Saturday-Sunday to travel. Just my thoughts and seems logical to me. How about some input from our interested posters. A priliminary head count would be a good start and with some luck maybe we could lock in a block of rooms at a discounted rate. It may be worth a try.:cool:

Any .45
November 8, 2006, 10:14 AM
Alaska I'm 5'10 320lbs, I've been doing Martial Arts since I was 9 or so, I'm 25 now and I just couldn't stop eating, so I continued to grow. The one big thing that has always kept me and alot of the older and over wait guys that come into my dojo is the stretching and warm up routines that we do for the first 15-20 minutes of our sessions. As of the last year I've been working in the oilfield, hence I no longer go to the dojo and everyonce in a while I get lazy and don't stretch for a few days and I can feel my muscles tightening up. You'd be surprised what some simple stretches can do for your body and you be able to feel the blood rushing into those muscle once you start stretching. Just my .02, regards,:D

November 13, 2006, 01:39 PM

For those of you who would find a class in the Northeat convenient...

We are in Maine, Just above Bangor. We have small,secluded, private range so we are not resticted about what we do there.

If I get enough response I will schedule a class for this Summer, sometime after Dave's class.

For those of you that would want to make our class as part of a vacation
we are a half hour from Bangor Airport. Easy to find, no big city driving.

Located about an hour from Bar Harbor and Mt Desert Island, Maine #1 vacation spot. Plenty to do and see for Moma nearby.

I will tailor the course to the folks that sign up.

So don't worry about your Age, disability or size, we just need to know enough about you all so that we can set it up.

Because the range is private, you don't have to be concerned about an audience. Only the classmembers, myself and helpers will be on range.

Guns and equipment available if needed.

We teach numerous defensive firearms courses as well as Law Enforcement and Non Lethal Training.

Contact me with your interests and concerns and we will see what we can put together.

Mick, [email protected]


November 13, 2006, 09:05 PM
OK..I'm serious...and Denny if you remember me from the Shot Show I'm both grey haired and rotund.

I have trouble bending over to tie my shoes. When I do "Tuck and rolls" that refers to me and Spiff eating breakfast. Im slow, arthritic and fat, although I can draw and shoot right quick. If I kneel behind a barricade, I'm not gettin up!

All of these training academies and schools semm to cater to the younger and fitter. Police training, of course is for 32 year old semi athletes...

My question is...whats out there for us physically challenged...the ones who aren't handicapped except by age and weight. Courses..or even some thoughts in different (must I use the word)..scenarios....

And yes I am trying to diet and I'm really not that decrepit, I can move pretty fast when I need to. But I'm sure not anyhting more than a chairborne Ranger...


Eat less and exercise more.

Run atleast 1 mile per day.

November 14, 2006, 01:24 AM
texgunner wrote:

"While I am a bit younger than some of the other posters (37), I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis 11 years ago. The whole left side of my body is weaker than my right, fortunately I'm right handed. I walk with a foot/ankle brace and sometimes use a cane. Moving quickly and changing positions is challenging for me. I've really wanted to try IDPA but I'm not sure how that will work for me.

Tex "

I understand Tex. I was originally diagnosed with MS. It turned out to be a massive brain tumor, that left me with that left side weakness ... like an old guy that experienced a stroke. Yes moving quickly, even backing up slowly, can be impossible.

I talked with the range officer that oversees the IDPA type matches held at the range I go to. I told him I might skip some parts of the event, but was only competing against me ... the time really was not important.

His response was simply, if I could move around without my walking stick, he saw no reason why not.

I see no reason to not give it a try. I will give it my best shot (pun intended), and if I feel it is unsafe, I try something else. I suggest you do it, while you can, and not do it, when you experience a relapse.

November 14, 2006, 11:26 AM

Dave & DVC9 -

I'm in. April-ish in the Louisiana swamps and summer with the black flies in Maine. I'll go to both if I can swing the $$.

Let me know just how much info you need to know about disabilities/infirmities/limitations. Otherwise, I'm just going to describe myself as being .45acp - short, slow & heavy.

stay safe.


November 17, 2006, 03:07 AM
I wish I'd been reading and posting messages here when this topic started. I'm a fat guy who has had to adapt, so while I'm not an expert on shooting and tactics, I am an expert on being a fat guy trying to learn some of this stuff.

I was also discouraged by the potential for classes being too rigorous for me, especially when most of them were five days long. When I found a local 2-day class, I gave it a try and did okay. Since then, I've done several 3-day classes that were considerably more challenging.

Here are some suggestions and things I've done to help me get through it.

1. Walk as much as possible. Even if you don't lose much weight or if your limitations are not due to being overweight, it will still help your stamina significantly. When I've failed to walk for the months before a class, I've really felt the difference.

2. Contact the instructor and explain your situation. Most of them are very accomodating and will not ask you to do anything you can't do safely. Many of them are really good at helping you adapt various skills to work around any problems you might have. They will also be able to help steer you toward classes that are more appropriate for your needs, and away from those that may not be a great idea for you.

3. Take a chair or seat with you. Most classes will have two relays, and if you rest while the other relay is on the line, you can rest while you observe the others in action with the instructor(s). Most reasonable instructors won't have a problem with it, especially if you clear it with them first.

4. If you have doubts you can do something that injure you, don't try it. It's not worth the risk. Now, I'm not saying don't push yourself, because you should do that within reason. You should just not take unnecessary risks.

If anyone in central Indiana wants to learn some basics, but has concerns about their physical limitations, send me a message. I might be able to help you, or I might be able to refer you to someone who can.

November 17, 2006, 03:09 AM
Where at in indiana? I am from Columbus!

November 17, 2006, 08:19 PM
For all you shooters who are overweight, out of shape,
physically challenged or just getting a bit "Long in the Tooth.
This intense 2 day course is designed for shooters who are concerned about the physical requirements of most defensive and tactical classes.

There will be No kneeling to abuse tired old knees, no running or jumping , swinging or crawling through pipes or over obstacles.
We have geared this course to Your strengths not your weaknesses.

Whether you need a wheelchair, crutches, walk with a cane or are Plus Sized as long as you can handle a gun safely we can and will train you.

Taught by an experienced Certified instructor with over 25 yrs combined Teaching Military, Law Enforcement, and Civilian and Security.

Additionally our range is Private so there is no need to be concerned about an audience.

You will learn

* A thorough review of Basic Marksmanship skills
* Threat Awareness/Avoidance
* The Face of the enemy and his weapons
* Fighting with a Handicap
* Choosing the gear that suits you best
* The Fighting Mindset
* Failure to Stop
* Tactical and Emergency reloads
* The Right Presentation.
* Malfunction Clearing
* Proactive and Reactive Skills
* Use of Cover and Concealment
* Use of ancillary equipment
* Multiple Adversaries
* Guns and equipment Available
* Lunch Provided

Located in Central Maine just a short drive to the easily accessible Bangor Jetport, and only an hour from Bar Harbor and Mt. Desert Island.

Plan your Training and Family vacation together!!

Our tentative planning date is 3rd and 4th of June a (Sun & Mon) as someone suggested. This gives you Sat for travel and to get settled in here. We do also have some space for RV parking.

Cost for the course will be $250.00 with a 10% discount for those who sign up prior to May 1st.
To reserve your slot and be eligible for the discount you will need to send a 50% deposit along with required info prior to May 1st.
This course like all our courses will be covered by a limited Full Money back Guarantee .

Space will be limited so sign up early! Look forward to training with You!

Mike (Mick) Freese, Pinetree Outfitters & Police supply
P.O. Box 478
Bradley, Maine 04411

(207) 827-3718 [email protected] or [email protected]

Please Subject "June Pistol Class"

November 18, 2006, 02:55 PM
Ill check my date book......

November 20, 2006, 11:30 PM
Dave and I have both posted dates for classes.

Hope you will make one or both of them!!!

David Armstrong
November 27, 2006, 05:15 PM
If Mike is willing to put on a class, I wouldn't mind bowing out of the mix. I don't mind putting a course like this on, but no sense in duplicating efforts if we can get around it.

David Armstrong
December 3, 2006, 03:06 AM
Well, I'm not sure what to make of this. There seemed to be lots of interest in this concept earlier, but now there is little to none.

Don P
December 3, 2006, 08:26 PM
That is what I was thinking after resurrecting the thread Dave. It comes and goes I guess. We are going to have to forgo the Maine trip for now. The wife will be starting a new job after the first of the year so there goes her vacation time. We'll go to plan b, whatever that is. Later and thanks to all who are putting classes on for the members.

December 4, 2006, 12:57 AM
I am sure people has said numedrous things about diet, I am also in the same situation as you, I'm 19 years old and weight 250lbs at 5'8 or 5'9 I work out and everything, but I can't deny the fact that I am overweight. Dieting works, and it helps bring energy back in you. Altough we are no where close in age range, but it is better for your health and for everyone's health really. (Jeez I sound like a diet freak lol). I was on Atkins about a year ago, and I lost 20lbs in four weeks, and it felt great, then I start slacking off and gained my weight back. I'm starting a new diet right now, and I don't know how its going to work out. Its called "You on a Diet" by Dr. Oz. It seems like a very easy way to shave your wasteline and improve your health. Some say you will see a 2 to 3 inch waist lost in about four weeks, which is good results and good news for some of us. Just thought I'd mention that to you.

heres a link to the book "You on a Diet?"

December 4, 2006, 03:42 PM
I still have quite a bit of interest in the topic of discussion, I'm just not in a position to travel to Maine to participate in a class. I also don't get to this forum very often, at least compared to other places.

When the class is done, I hope the instructor and participants will share details of how it went and what they learned about adapting personal defense techniques to people with various levels of physical challenges. I won't call myself an "instructor," but I will be working with friend who will be and I intend to make an effort to make the skills and knowledge accessible to everyone who is interested.

I think much of this sort of training will necessarily be "local" as one of the key ingredients will be duration of the sessions. A lot of people who could handle a couple of hours once a week could not tolerate two or three days. It's not practical for a traveling instructor to accomodate that, or for people to travel to them to accomodate it. However, if we had more people who were able and willing to help the locals learn at their own pace, I think it would be a good thing.

December 4, 2006, 04:45 PM
I'm still in for the Maine training date.

David said he had posted a date for the bayou, but I can't find it. I'd consider his ssession also.

Guys, if I am the only one who signs up, wiull you still run the course?

stay safe.


Don P
December 5, 2006, 07:23 PM
David Armstrong If Mike is willing to put on a class, I wouldn't mind bowing out of the mix. I don't mind putting a course like this on, but no sense in duplicating efforts if we can get around it.
This is why you cannot find the dates in the swamp. Maine only for now:cool:

December 23, 2006, 07:51 AM
We have tentatively scheduled a class based on this thread for June 3 & 4.

Complete info can be found on post #91 of this thread.