View Full Version : Urban Survival?

March 6, 2006, 07:41 PM
I'm just curious? All you gung ho cowboys seem to live in the "burbs" and are ready to declare war, if need be?

Whom on this forum lives with the MS-13, Bloods, Crips, etc.in their neighborhood like I do? Would you brave souls bet your hand gun against a gang hundreds strong and well armed, with your family, at a fixed address you live at? Charles Bronson in Hollywood movies would not go against odds like that!

MOVE OUT you say? Great, you have the money and resources to relocate to another area? Hell NO! It's difficult to even pay the utility bills, much less finding safety...

Shall we discuss the preceeding?

March 6, 2006, 08:10 PM
Sorry, but I'm not in the mood to discuss this with a whiney homeboy from the "HOOD". Not everyone is made of money on this board, but I'd venture to say that the vast majority would do what ever it took to get their family and themselves to a safe location.. Take the chip off your shoulder !

Board moderator, if you concider this a personal attack, or somehow in TFL violation, feel free to block my access as you see fit.

March 6, 2006, 08:15 PM
I understand what you're saying...don't have any answers. I live in Nash., Tn. and the MS-13 has showed its ugly face here. Not good on many levels. The cops don't know what to do or say. ACLU is against "open season" and we know even with best of circumstances self defense is an expensive proposition. Still, even considering gangs, you/we've got to be ready to defend. Its like the "rock and a hard place"...not good.

March 6, 2006, 08:25 PM
Id rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
i dont care who it is if they attack me they WILL die. if they have friends that just puts me in a "target rich enviorment". my general theory is kill a few and the others will be scared of you, because almost no one really wants to die. Put thier heads on pikes in your front yard and that will scare them away (metaphoricaly). I bet ive got more ammo then they do people. and have you ever seen one of thoses "Gangstas" shoot? holding a gun sideways dosent work to well.

Dave R
March 6, 2006, 09:03 PM
Just thinking of this from an economic standpoint...

If you're in an urban area, your costs for rent, utils, etc. are probably higher than they would be if you were in a suburban or rural area. The question is, can you get a job in a rural area? If you can, costs are probably lower.

March 6, 2006, 09:05 PM
I would get my bootie to school, learn a trade, get a degree and start earning enough money to move up.

March 6, 2006, 09:26 PM
dennis, . . . it may not work for you, . . . but just short of 30 years ago, . . . I made the "urban" move. No, . . . the bloods and crips weren't there, . . . but there were enough unorganized bg's there to make one careful.

Anyway, . . . my basic tactic was to more or less let everyone around know that I was a gun nut, . . . I cleaned em on the front porch for everyone to see.

I invited my neighbors to go to the shooting club with me.

Long and short, . . . they burgled the neighborhood, . . . but left me alone. Was it divine intervention, . . . or a conscious decision on their part to leave that goofy hillbilly gun happy sailor alone? Who knows!

May God bless,

Capt. Charlie
March 6, 2006, 09:43 PM
MS-13 has a solid foothold in at least 33 states, and I wouldn't sell their street tactics short as gangsta wannabes. Their roots stem from military rebels in El Salvador.

Also, don't think that because you live in Smallville, USA, you're safe. MS-13, along with Crips, Bloods, and a host of others are moving their activities to smaller cities that don't have the personnel or resources to deal with them.

MS-13 and the Crips (along with most other gangs) are deadly enemies, and we can only hope that they kill each other off.

March 6, 2006, 10:40 PM
Its hard to say, the mighty USA is become infested with urban gangs and the Govt. dosent seem too interesed in putting a stop to it. City streets arent safe anymore and there really arent a whole lot of places left to go.

WTSHTF youll be left defending yourself against mutiple armed enemys in an urban enviroment, this means your'll likely die. IMO your best bet it to bug out. When it all goes down arm up, get in your car and leave. Have a BOB, supplies and ammo in the car and be ready to leave with your family. When worst comes to worst the last place you want to be is in a gang infested urban inviroment. Anywhere is better than that.

March 6, 2006, 10:42 PM
OK, there's lots tpo say about the posts on this thread. Capt. Charlie: Well said. Anyone who believes "The Shield" version of MS-13 is way off base. They are a lot more sophisticated than you think. I work with all immigrants. The guys who are the kithcen staff at the restaurant three doors down are all MS-13. Behind my buisness they tag the walls of the alley with gang signs and live all around our shoopping center. They work menial jobs by day and work gang business at night. Soime of the things they do are as simple as walk up to you and ask for a couple of bucks. When you see one or two, there are seven or eight you don't. They never do anytjhing in small groups. Always large groups. One I worked with told me anyone who kills someone in Honduras, Guatamala, or El Salvador comes here with the help of coyotes (paid for). they have a very high rosensity for violence. Move you say? Rural America not necessarily known for great job opportunities. And Dwight--you polish guns on your porch in my area and your house will be the first to get robbed. As soon as your not home for a while your house is a target because you have guns! So be careful. Everyone wants guns. Dogs you say? Pit Bulls? Rottweilers? Easy. Nice peice of meat marinated with rat poison thrown through the window about 10 minutes after you leavbe for work. Got all the time in the world to wait for that dog to die, then eight guys are working on your safe, while the rest load a landscaping truck with your stuff.

March 6, 2006, 10:48 PM
As far as gang banger shooting skills, a guy I work with form El Salvador learned to shoot in the army down in Salvador. Most gang banger higher ups served in the army or in the paramilitaries, and probably have more experence than most guys on this site. I've worked for 10 years with a guy from Honduras who tells how in his town if you have a nice watch they will chop off your hand to get the watch. They take your hand and put in under their hat. the blood runs down and stains their shirt. That way other people know who the most dangerous guys are.

March 7, 2006, 05:51 AM
Dennis, Move. You cannot fight a gang of people who want you dead. They will get you while you sleep. in your home (driveby), at the grocery store, ect. You cannot stop someone from killing you if they really want you dead. So the very smartest thing to do, if you love your family, is move. When your tax return check comes in move. Otherwise save some money and move.

Bender711, I saw a story about a watch repair business owner who shot and killed a wouldbe robber that was a gang member. The word got out that this gang was out to get him. They tried again with 4 gang members and the shop owner killed 2 or 3 of them. The shop owner knew that the next attack would be bigger and moved. Bully defense (fight back and they will stop) simply doesn't work with gangs. Post their friends head on a stake in your yard and they won't rest until you and your family are dead.

I know you guys think that your skills are greater, your weapons better, ect. That won't help you when a gang banger shoots you from the grassy knoll across the street. Get out while you and yours are healthy, that is you duty as a man and father.

March 7, 2006, 05:58 AM
BTW I saw a news reort on MS-13 and they employ swat like tactics with overwhelming force. Groups armed with high powered semi auto rifles (ak-47's usually) using covering type tactics sweep homes of robbery victims just as a swat team would. Very difficult to deal with multiple men armed with weapons capable of penetrating several walls who are using tactics which keep a muzzel covering the movement of other members. MOVE

March 7, 2006, 06:34 AM
please run away! pack up and move to a little moutain town with a population of 153. they will be there soon enough, but now your kids have to live with it. stand your ground - you pay the rent. if you don't like it, change it. the problem will on grow with the run away method!

March 7, 2006, 07:19 AM
Fireball, With advice like that you should include getting large life insurance policies for any family that survives and graveyard plots. You are giving fatal advice. Study gangs a bit and you will see that they will get you. Unless you have eyes in the back of your head and secret service members to search the grassy knoll everyday for that sniper LOL. The smart thing to do is run. It doesn't make you a coward but smart.

March 7, 2006, 08:28 AM
Dennis2 where do you live?

March 7, 2006, 08:30 AM
Step 1: Two to the chest, 1 to the head.
Step 2: Repeat step 1 as needed.

March 7, 2006, 08:48 AM
Where is everyone going when there's no place left to run???

March 7, 2006, 09:01 AM
It is easier to say move than to do it. It takes money to move, get a new job, etc. Sometimes the problems you know are better than the unknown problems you will have. Threegun is right. You will not win against a gang. They live for that s**t. You challenge them and a whole slew of dudes will step up to make a name fo themselves in the gang culture. Armed defense against a gang is only a last resort, ie: your walking to your car and they accost you, you have no choice but to shoot to try to save your life. In my area a working man was coming home from work walked up to his front door and was surprised and shot to death by a group whose initiation right was to tke an unsuspecting life to prove how hard they were. It took about two years to funally catch a couple of them, but if i'm not mistaken, they didn't catch all. Does it matter though? the guy they shot is still dead. Acting like two to the chest is going to solve all your poblems with gangs is just silly.

March 7, 2006, 09:02 AM
GUNSMOKE45441 good question.

March 7, 2006, 09:50 AM
The best weapon you have against gangs is your mind. Gangs are made up of different individuals, who join for many different reasons. Some are violent career criminals, some are wannabes, and same join for protection.

Gangs get their money from crime, mostly drugs, but also theft. If you want to stay clear of a gang, don't mess with their drug dealing, don't advertise you have something they would want to steal, and don't publically insult them.

I have heard many people say that they know someone in a gang and they therefore feel somewhat safe, because they believe that they have a "relationship' with that gang member or are even "friends" with them. Don't count on it, I've known a lot of gang members over the years. Many would smile and be quite friendly to me. But I knew that most would not hesitate, if I met them on the street, if I had something they wanted, to do whatever it took to get it, including taking my life.

Gangs are dangerous, treat them with respect, as you would a wild animal. Most are emotionally immature and a lot are also socio-paths, oops sorry the proper term now a days is anti-social personality disorder.

Personally I treat gangs like I would a pack of wolves or a bear in the woods. I try to stear clear. I try to stay aware of what is going on around me. I try not to draw undue attention to myself. I treat them with the respect that I give to everyone else. I have a plan to protect myself and my family. I practise. I realize that if I must resort to the use of lethal force, then a lot has already gone wrong.

Don't plan on being Rambo, you are not Rambo, not even Rambo is Rambo. If you have a family, taking care of them comes first. Your family is more important than money or your pride. Do whatever is necessary to take care of your family, including moving if it is prudent.

Gangs can be defeated, but not by shooting it out with them. You may win a battle or two, but you will lose in the end. If it ever came down to shooting it out with a member or members of a local gang and you survive, don't hang around, move.

Defeating gangs comes from building a strong local community, from working with authorities - building a realtionship between the police and the local community, and from working to support and build strong famiies. As long as a gang is a natural part of a community it cannot be rooted out, when it is an alien presence in a community it can be removed like a cancer.

Individual gangs can go through explosive growth cycles - as has MS 13. But when that happens inevitably there is a slowing and a dilution of the initial leadership and energy. From my very limited knowledge about Ms 13 it appears that many of it's original leaders had military experience and training - but I doubt that the vast majority of the gangs new recruits have the same or similar experience, and I doubt that the gang in general has the organzation to effectively train its members.

Stay safe. :)

March 7, 2006, 10:47 AM
There are some MS13 gangs operating here in VA. But they are armed with machetes mainly. Very little or no incidents of shoot outs with police and other civilians.

However, other gang members and past gang members, drug dealers etc. routinely get into machete / hand chopping incidents with MS13 gang members here. (They are in a neighboring town.)

There have also been incidents of drug deals gone bad that turn into robbery / homocides.

But for the typically urban gun owner who follows the rules - no incidents to report of. So pretty safe in this area.

Take precautions / use good judgement in where you hang out, who you hang out with. You will be OK.:D

March 7, 2006, 12:14 PM
Urban Survival?


I'm just curious? All you gung ho cowboys seem to live in the "burbs" and are ready to declare war, if need be?

Whom on this forum lives with the MS-13, Bloods, Crips, etc.in their neighborhood like I do? Would you brave souls bet your hand gun against a gang hundreds strong and well armed, with your family, at a fixed address you live at? Charles Bronson in Hollywood movies would not go against odds like that!

MOVE OUT you say? Great, you have the money and resources to relocate to another area? Hell NO! It's difficult to even pay the utility bills, much less finding safety...

Shall we discuss the preceeding?

Why are asking all us gung-ho cowboys what to do?

Get off the internet, sell your computer, work overtime and get out of there. Re-read CraigJS's post.

Why would you think a bunch of gung-ho cowboys want to discuss anything with you?

March 7, 2006, 01:01 PM
I grew up in a poor area in Philly and for most of my life I lived in an urban setting. I have see and done more bad things at 16 than most men have in their lifetime. My father, due to economics was stuck and could not move out, but he took every opportunity to get us out of the city, to go camping, fishing, and hunting. I made a VOW to him that I would get out of the city. TRY as hard as you can to get out. Most of the large cities in America a pits of hopelessness and crime, that is getting increasingly worse. How can you raise a family there??? Your right you cannot fight the gangs.

You could easily find an apartment in a suburb with a lower crime rate just outside of where you live, or you try to buy a "fixer-upper" house. I rather live in a shack in the burbs then a mansion in a bad city neighborhood. Buying a house is expensive now, but overall it is sometimes cheaper to live and work in the burb vs living and working in a city. There is still crime in the suburbs, but it is a lot less. I live only 30 miles away from Philly. I go to sleep and hear nothing but crickets and wind, instead of gunshots and yelling (I actually couldn't sleep for a month when I moved, it was too quiet). I can actually use the local public school system and my kids actually learn and not worry as much about getting killed (like I did). Cops around here actually show up in less than 5 minutes if you call 911, even for minor stuff.

Don't be quick to judge the "country boys" some rural residents are poorer than poorest people in the city. There is less jobs in the deep "boonies". There is also more corruption and in some rural areas, big meth problems.

Capt. Charlie
March 7, 2006, 01:31 PM
Where is everyone going when there's no place left to run??
While Dennis' post is a little harsh, I suspect it's out of the frustration of being backed into a corner with no (perceived) escape.

Neighborhood deterioration and a rise in crime is something that hundreds of thousands of people face every year. It's a very real problem with a very real relevance here.

I faced the same problem 15 yrs. ago, and my sister is still facing it. I'm fortunate; my income was such that I could afford to move into a better neighborhood, but my sister, even with my help, isn't. Gunfire is a daily occurrence in her neighborhood, and I worry every day. I have to be very careful about visiting her since I'm well known as a cop. My appearance there could be interpreted as her being a snitch, and she could end up having that gunfire directed at her, or have a Molotov cocktail thrown through her window at 4 am :( :mad: .

I'm frustrated as well, and while I restrain my anger here, it resides within me, none the less.

What's the answer for someone that can't move? That's what we're here to discuss ;) .

March 7, 2006, 01:37 PM
Mack59, Great post. It's funny how pride can make normally smart people talk of doing such crazy things like fighting gangs. I have the latest in firearms technology and tactics that would overwhelm most gangs in an armed confrontation. I shoot competitively to practice the quick engagement of multiple targets. If forced to get ugly, I can get very ugly. That said how can I defend against someone willing to assasinate me? How can I insure my families safety once the poop has hit the fan? Quick answer I can't.........so move.

Once my kids are grown and gone then I can stand my ground and die fighting the unwinable fight. Until then vote for politicians that are tough on criminals and not citizens. Move to the safer area ect.

March 7, 2006, 02:37 PM
Excellent response Threegun!
I also think alot of people let pride in their abilities, tactics, and weaponry fog the horizons of their realisitc thinking... You CANNOT DEFEAT a gang by yourself no matter how many guns you have...Manpower is manpower....

The same is true with defending yourself unarmed.....I train with people that could beat the -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- out of two or more people if confronted on the street....But what about a gang of 5 gangbangers or more? As the opposing manpower increases the mob mentality increases, and your chances of coming out of it uninjured/alive decreases dramatically! Ask any one who's a trained fighter (boxer, blackbelt) will tell you they always try and avoid a fightttt, b/c eventually you're gonna get smacked in the teeth no matter how good you are... ESPECIALLY when it involves multiple Bad guys..

March 7, 2006, 03:26 PM
Once I started seeing the local gang bangers spray paint a cops badge number on the sides of buildings, I moved well out of MPLS!

March 7, 2006, 03:46 PM
I live here in Philly where on average one person a day is getting murdered. Heck, we had a woman get shot twice in the stomach a block from where I live, and I live on the good side of the tracks. I would have to agree with what some of the other posts say. Be aware of your surroundings, try to avoid the fight at all cost, and save up!

Even if you get into a confrontation with some gang banger and win he will have an 80 year old grandmother and 4 sisters out in front of the news camera crying about how he was wronged and was trying to get his act together. You see it on the news all the time.

Be safe and do your best to stay under the radar.

March 7, 2006, 06:42 PM
What I am getting at, is when all the good guys leave, and the's no one left to rob or steal from are they going to stop, or come to where you live for the goodies.
When do the good guys (I think we still outnumber them) band together and take back our country.
I'm not Rambo nor do I want to be, but I will not be driven out of my home.

March 7, 2006, 06:49 PM
I agree moving to safer location is the answer if you can possibly swing it -

Of course, when the town is 'used up', they'll eventually spread to the burbs and then to the surrounding countryside. A massed, coordinated, attack on a isolated farm or ranch will net them a nice little stash of goods and give them a base of operations. With trained military personnel directing them, you think they'll just stay in urban areas? They'll go where the pickings are best and an isolated farm or ranch is pretty inviting.

As I'm fond of saying, in my humble opinion, neighbors banning together to protect their community, and defend it, however necessary, before things get that bad, is the key. Take neighborhood watch about 10 steps further and keep your neighborhood however necessary. I'm not religous, but, as you receive - give it back 10 fold...you're message will get across.

When the Los Angeles cops were getting their asses kicked, and were outgunned, by the gangs in L.A., Darrel Gates went on televison and made a public statement saying that "If all the gangs members of Los Angeles understood is 'gang mentality', then the Los Angeles Police Department would become the biggest, baddest 'gang' the gang bangers had ever seen"...and they did -- cops started kicking ass, taking names and the department bought bigger and better weapons -- something the gangs understood. The gangs started fearing the cops more than other gangs. It helped take back the city...

Whatever you decide - best of luck.

March 7, 2006, 06:59 PM
not a lot of room for discussion here at all. Either you get out, or you live with it. I don't have any sympathy.

March 7, 2006, 09:03 PM
Cry me a river dennis, if you have a computer your not that poor. One of the great advantages of moving to a rural area is homes are cheap, so why dont you stop whining, and move. I am sure you can find a job somewhere, and its not like your giving up some high paying job now from what you said about not paying utilities.

March 7, 2006, 09:34 PM
Shall we discuss the preceeding?

If you don't feel you can defend yourself against a threat, call 911. They will assist you as soon as they can.

Regarding the can't afford to move comments: If you HAD to move, say you ran over a gang member accidentally and they threatened to kill you. Could you scrape together the money to move under those circumstances? I'll bet you could then. And thus, you could now too.

March 7, 2006, 09:42 PM
While you may stand a chance in a gun fight with a small group of gangbangers, or with some luck, tactics, and technology, a medium group (10 or so); you can't win every time. You can't defend against the car bomb planted on your car, or the molitof (sp?) cocktail that is thrown at your house at 4 a.m., or being shot in the back in line at the grocery store.

Best thing to do is to move; and in the mean time don't piss anyone off, don't advertise you have nice stuff, and don't look like a snitch (don't let anyone with a badge come near if you if not absolutely needed; I know that sounds weird, because the police are on our side; but if you are painted as a snitch you could be killed).

I wouldn't advertise that you have lots of guns as a way of deterring them; but it wouldn't hurt if you carried open on your own property. Criminals prefer unarmed victims.

March 7, 2006, 09:52 PM
Their roots stem from military rebels in El Salvador.

FYI, M.S. is a completely American invention. It beginnings can be found in the streets of Los Angeles, a baseball diamond to be exact. As of 2003 M.S. had known organizations or affiliations in 36 states and 6 foreign countries. Yes, M.S. has a Salvadoran taste to it. Because the gang was founded by a small group immigrants for El Salvador. How do you account for 6 foreign countries then, you ask? Because the United States Immigration and Naturalization people have a nasty habit of deporting illegals who get themselves in trouble with the law. Unkown to us at the time we were also exporting the gang itself.

March 7, 2006, 10:00 PM
Best of all, don't you just love those people who will post these types of questions and don't respond.

March 7, 2006, 10:05 PM
I was waiting for someone to blame the USA for ms13.

Garand Illusion
March 7, 2006, 11:32 PM
The good people of Iraq (the ones who want to stop the bloodshed and get their country back) have the same problem. Every time they turn a blind eye to the insurgent/terrorists more bombs and guns go off. If they're found out as a snitch, their whole family is killed.

If you live in a neighborhood like that you've got to ride it out. Be cool, don't piss off the wrong people, and try to make things better when you get a chance.

One man alone is a nail to be pounded down. But if you can find other like minded individuals and start working together to clean things up and get the bad guys put away, that's when change begins.

Having a handgun is great against an unexpected attack by strangers. But it's not a good way to fix the ongoing problems of the neighborhood you live in.

Capt. Charlie
March 8, 2006, 12:53 AM
One man alone is a nail to be pounded down. But if you can find other like minded individuals and start working together to clean things up and get the bad guys put away, that's when change begins.
An absolutely outstanding statement! There truly is strength in numbers!

But.... one thing I would advise is maintaining a very low profile until the neighborhood is united, well armed, and has a game plan. Resistance before that's accomplished will make you a target, sure as water runs downhill.

March 8, 2006, 01:19 AM
I had to read the original posting twice before I understood it.

Most BGs are lazy. They rob their parents, the next door neighbor, the neighborhood grocery store.

Our gangs? Shoreline Crips and the V13 Gang. V13 lives within walking distance.

So what is the challenge by the poster? What is really to discuss? Why the challenge of dealing with 100 gang members?

Maybe it is GunKid again.

March 8, 2006, 08:02 AM
I agree that in order to battle urban dcay and crime the good people must stand up for their neighborhoods "take back the streets" etc. But that is far easier said than done. Group dynamics is a tactical discussion in and of itself, as is its corollary mob dynamics. The problem for the good citizens is one of will. Do they (we) have the unified clarity of vision and dedication to action to make a difference. I am reminded of a situation from my youth. Myself and a small number of friends were having a few beers in an empty lot in a neighborhood near us. Unbeknownst to us, the area was having problems with vandalism. A large group of homeowners, their friends (I guess) and teenage boys approached us and told us they'd had enough of the problems and were going to make an example of us so that all the other "dirtbags" and "punks" would know to stay off their block. Lucky for us, they were only armed with bats, and the like. If someone had a gun that night there would most likely have been shooting. I do not know what possessed me, but I put myself between my friends and the mob and explained that while they would certainly beat us down, I would crack the jaw and knock the teeth out of the first guy who swung at me. You might win, but at least one or two of you are going to the hospital with me, I explained (rather vehemently). Funny thing, no one wnted to be the guy who got his jaw broken in the group. They were not Sopranos, gang-bangers, etc. If they were they would have just shot me and laughed. But to these homeowners, most of whom really would rather avoid fighting, the sight of a young, tattooed weightlifter was enough of a deterrent to make them pause. They just sort of said in unison--just get out of here. So we left. I was very lucky that night, all it would have taken was one pyscho tougher than me and maybe I'd be dead. The point is that a group must have the will to face down and go to the mats with their adversary, and many do not have the will.

March 8, 2006, 09:48 AM
As I'm fond of saying, in my humble opinion, neighbors banning together to protect their community, and defend it, however necessary, before things get that bad, is the key. Take neighborhood watch about 10 steps further and keep your neighborhood however necessary. I'm not religous, but, as you receive - give it back 10 fold...you're message will get across.

The Big part of your message is "before things get bad" The suburb I live in now is 50% people who fled bad urban areas and 50% people who lived in the area for generations when 20 years ago the area was nothing but farms and woods. The cops here are very "gung ho" and we have zero tolerence for an BS in our neighborhood. Criminals go to places were people don't care, they don't want to go to a neighborhood where everyone is looking out for their neighbors and will be quick to call 911 if they see something bad. If gangs try to set up shop in a neighborhood and nothing happens and noboy cares, they will continue to grow and get worse. Like weeds soon the will be too big and too many to root out.

March 8, 2006, 09:55 AM
Mikeyboy, A+

March 8, 2006, 10:22 AM
Dennis2 where do you live?

From another one of his posts in a different thread:

I live in a dangerous neighborhood in East St. Louis, Il.

Would you brave souls bet your hand gun against a gang hundreds strong and well armed, with your family, at a fixed address you live at?

I don't recollect that anyone has ever said that here. You seem angry for some reason. I think you should use this anger to energize your neighbors. Band together to protect your neighborhood if you can't move. As previously stated, safety in numbers and all that.

TexiCali Slim
March 8, 2006, 11:08 AM
Same stuff goes on in the burbs as the urban city, theyre just like dogs if you mind your own buisness and dont stare or show fear you have nothing to worry about.;)

March 8, 2006, 11:29 AM
Dude you need to move. Not having the money isn't an option, it's an excuse. I thought Columbus was getting bad back in the late 80's with the Blood's & Crips and didn't want to raise my kids there. You think I had the money making 6. bucks an hour? Depends on how bad you want out of it. Where there's a will, there's a way. I sold off all our treasure (crap) and made enough to get a cartop luggage carrier and just went. I rolled into C Springs in the middle of winter with 1/2 tank of gas, two toddlers & wife and 25 bucks cash. No place to land. First stop was at a pawn shop. Pawned the two handguns for enough to buy a motel kitchenette for a month and hit the streets looking for work. I was working 3 days later and we lived right through it.

I don't know what you're hoping to hear people say to you but it sounds like you know what really needs to be done and are resistant to it for whatever reason. You bet it's going to be the tough way but it'll also get you out. So it's a leap of faith. Good, it builds character. Maybe you think God's gonna let you & your family starve? Hah!

Think back poorman. You ever miss any meals? Thought not. The only people who miss meals & such are the drug addicts who make that poor choice.. Things have a way of working themselves out. Just do it.

Dwight...LOL! Good post.

Garand Illusion
March 8, 2006, 01:32 PM
Limitations of strength in numbers

It's a good post, LICCW, but again your looking at a tactical solution; people confronting a bad situation head on with force on force. A mob of homeowners trying to show bravado and beat down some punks is a vigilante mob; there's a time and place for that, but probably not to fight simple vandalism.

What I'm talking about is the "broken window" syndrome. If you have an abandoned building with no broken windows and cleaned up, it may stay that way forever. But once one window gets broken, if it stays broken, the building looks run down and suddenly more people are throwing rocks. And pretty soon all of the windows are broken. And then it makes the whole neighborhood look run down, and then people are breaking windows in other houses. As has been proven a million times in the real world, if you fight the little crimes you reduce the big crimes.

So you live in a bad neighborhood, and the cops don't care because when something does happen everyone around turns a blind eye and doesn't want to get involved.

Talking with your neighbors, you may discover there are other like minded individuals as yourself. So you start a program of neighborhood watching -- running video cameras, taking turns watching, and always calling the police for trouble. And then supporting the police en masse when they show up, so the BG's involved don't have a single complaintant to look at. Yeah -- gang bangers have no problem intimidating, beating or killing one person or family. But when a whole community stands against them and makes it clear that reprisals will bring more calls to the police and more convictions ... things change.

Back in the violence of the 80's there was a drive by shooting in a bad neighborhood in Denver that resulted in a little girl getting killed. Right afterwards the gang bangers drove around, making eye contact with everyone on the streets and throwing gang signs to let them know they'd better not talk to the cops.

But this was the last in a number of shootings, and for whatever reason this neighborhood had had enough. The police had locals lining up to give descriptions and the shooters were quickly in jail. The more locals that stepped forward, the more that found the courage to do so.

If one person had reported in, he or his family would be dead. Since they all reported the situation in, the gang decided to move the worst of their operations out.

On this site we like to think of the lone warrior -- the Charles Bronson -- dropping all the bad guys and cleaning up the neighborhood. But you only see that in the movies for a reason; it doesn't work in real life.

March 8, 2006, 02:31 PM
GarandIllusion: Good post. Good points. I think that as firearms owners, many on the board are taking responsibility for their own protection. many of us CCW for business or just personal protection. But that's just it, we spend a lot of time training for that scenario in which we must defend ourselves or our family, but do we spend enough time discussing how to group together with neighbors or how to protect our neighborhoods, organize watch groups etc? Many post that the firearm is a last resort, so maybe more of our tactics and training should include community based measures and advice on all the things that should be done before we resort to using our pistols. I don't know, I'm just sort of thinking out loud. I feel prepared to defend my family or my person, but could I defend my block? My neighbors if need be? Or am I just another Charles Bronson wannabe, planning on going it alone?

Garand Illusion
March 8, 2006, 10:57 PM
Good points LICCW!

I'm afraid I, myself, am a Bronson wannabe. But that is because I am fortunate to live in a quiet cul de sac in a nice neighbhorhood. If things go somehow terribly bad, like a Katrina/New Orleans thing, I'll have to try and organize my neighbors in a hurry. But I will do that, and I would do it now if a gang moved in down the street.

Fortunately, I have enough firearms and ammo to arm several of my neighbors.

If I'm carrying in public, I'm not sure how far I would go to defend others. I don't mean to be heartless, but in a situation like the Seattle Mall shooting my first goal is going to be to get out of the line of fire and save myself.

And if I find a safe place I might just hunker down there and wait for it to end. Not that I don't want to save my fellow man, but I'm seriously afraid of not shooting well and getting killed myself, or getting killed by the police, or accidentally shooting an innocent.

Besides ... my experience with violence is it generally happens very quickly, is over very quickly, and it can be difficult to figure out exactly what's happening in the time you have.

Good luck! I hope you find yourself to be a community leader and neghborhood defender!

March 9, 2006, 12:05 AM
How is ms-13 any different from Hitler ? No difference in my opinion.
as Ben Franklin said something like this " We must all hang together or surely we will hang separately" We all need to work to to put things back in there place. And this means starting with the ACLU. IMHO the ACLU should be charged with treason as a enemy against the US Constitution.
This may get me kicked out of here, but I don't care, It's how I feel as a American.

March 11, 2006, 12:35 AM
Whoe this is weird, Im still here. I thought I was in The Fired Line Zone.

Blackwater OPS
March 11, 2006, 01:15 AM
I live in LA, so gangs are a given, but people in my neighborhood know who I am. They don't mess with me, I don't mess with them. It works out well for everybody. If there is a problem 10 guys from my reserve unit live with 15 min of me, several with 2-3 minutes. Same goes for them of course. Gangs are not going away, but I am not going to let them cause problems for me.

Garand Illusion
March 11, 2006, 03:11 AM
gangs are a given, but people in my neighborhood know who I am. They don't mess with me,

Just live in fear of that sharp stick with poo on it. Huh, B.O.? :D

Yeah ... that's the way it is in my city too. The bad guys know me and they leave me alone.

March 12, 2006, 11:08 PM
03-06-2006, 10:40 PM #9

Its hard to say, the mighty USA is become infested with urban gangs and the Govt. dosent seem too interesed in putting a stop to it. City streets arent safe anymore and there really arent a whole lot of places left to go...."

It sure would have been nice to apply all that money and energy spent in Iraq applied to cleaning up our own streets. :confused:

March 12, 2006, 11:16 PM
We already spend far more on failed social programs than we do on the military.

More money won't help. Our cities are crumbling becuase of social programs, loss of personal responsibility and hard work.

March 12, 2006, 11:16 PM
The only safe place is being dead and six foot under......

March 12, 2006, 11:38 PM
*I 03-08-2006, 11:05 PM #51


How is ms-13 any different from Hitler ? No difference in my opinion.
as Ben Franklin said something like this " We must all hang together or surely we will hang separately" We all need to work to to put things back in there place. And this means starting with the ACLU. IMHO the ACLU should be charged with treason as a enemy against the US Constitution.
This may get me kicked out of here, but I don't care, It's how I feel as a American.

I guess it all depends upon ones personal prejudices. For me I support the ACLU. I was in secret operations with the USAF in the 60's. The work I did still remains "Highly classified" per my inquiry two years ago. In that operation I was contaminated with ionizing radiation ... "I Glowed in the dark". The USAF identified me as a radio repairman, for whom there was no record of exposure to radiation. Do I an American citizen, who served honorably in the armed forces of the United States, have a right to equal access to "Due process of law" ? The ACLU fought, for me and thousands of veterans who served. There were only 143 servicemen and one civilian working in that secret laboratory ... a mere drop in the bucket. I see it as the ACLU fights for the minority opinion ... fights that even the mere 143 have the right to "Due process of law". The government is large and powerful ... the 143 are not a very large group. The ACLU lost the battle, of establishing the right of "Due process" for those who were exposed to ionizing radiation in the service of their country, but the ACLU fought the good fight.

So, as I said, my views are prejudiced by my experiences. The ACLU fought for me, when others turned their backs. I may not like some of the cases they get involved with, but then I guess that is the mission of the ACLU ... to fight for the minority opinion.

The question you seem to raise is, "Do the constitutional protections as written, and ruled in establed court cases, apply to individual members of the gangs you identified ?" It turned out to not apply to me, a member of the "Gang" I worked for. That really hurt. However, I hope all those personal civil liberties, that I served honorably to support and defend, actually do apply to each and every member of gangs, such as MS-13. I also contribute to the ACLU to fight for such prejudices.

jibjab, you see it one way, I see it another. Some day maybe that will be ok with everyone.

March 13, 2006, 12:12 AM

It's safe to say we do agree, to disagree . While I may respect you as a individual, I march to a different drummer. Best wishes

March 15, 2006, 02:59 AM
Is it just my imagination or is it that these large gangs are comprised of mostly hispanics? There was mention on this post that many of them are militants from south america.
Quite frankly my opinion is that when the police(or maybe even a vigilanty group) find these gangs gathering in large groups they should go in shooting leaving little or no survivors at least a few times as examples of the peoples/governments intolerance to such activities.. Maybe if a few gangs were eradicated in this manner no one would want to start or be in a gang for fear of being next.
If the police can't make your home safe then maybe you and any others in your hood who are sick of living in fear and can muster up some balls should organize,arm up, train up and take back your freedom from localized oppressers.
Do you have the manhood to demand some thing be done by your city and state officials or orginize some kind of nieghborhood watch group with others who are like minded? If not then maybe you should puss out and find some way to get out.

March 15, 2006, 03:14 AM
Im not talking about social programs Im talking about police. Police and prison reform, not reforming the prisioners but reforming our prisons. I dont think prisoners need cable tv and all that crappola but send a man to prison and all you do is make him join another gang. Lots of police and lots of prisons where all you get is a 4 ft cell with the crapper built in and three meals a day. No violence, no rape and no gangs, just nothing. Thats and lots more police, police whose payday don't depend on how many tickets they give.

Having lived in several crime infested neighborhoods including the one I live in now I have to say that gangs are made up of black people, asian people, hispanic people, russians, europeans and yes even the amercian white male. So what. I protect myself, my own and my property. However I am not the law. If I want to protect my neighborhood thats what Ill do, and if I have to join the police academy and become an officer to do it then thats how Ill do it.

Semperknight: Your plan sounds good but in the end you give people the power to be judge jury and executioner. Give people that power and whose to say where it ends and how it gets abused.

March 15, 2006, 07:07 AM
We the sheep must work together to beat opposition.