View Full Version : Tactics and Training/Fantasy and Paranoia

March 4, 2006, 01:32 PM
I must admit,I'm a hunter and that's what I use my firearms for. When I joined TFL I hung around the revolver forum, reloading, hunting etc. I didn't even read any posts in this section for a long time.

About 30% of the threads here are good solid tactics and training stuff, and the rest of it is in a word, crap.

Live and let live, to each his own, and all that stuff so I guess I'll take myself out of the mix here and head back to topics I enjoy discussing.

I'm sure that anti gun folks love to see this kind of immaturity and delusional paranoia among the firearms community as it will surely help their cause.:mad:

March 4, 2006, 08:09 PM
I would look at it another way. Although some of the situations in the threads may look rediculous, stranger -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- has happened. Every day in the news you hear about these rediculous situations, but they happened.

In respose to people already against guns, this forum won't change their minds. There is little you can do to change the mind of someone who has already made it up.

It's not vengence, it's punishment - The Punisher

Capt. Charlie
March 4, 2006, 09:50 PM
In respose to people already against guns, this forum won't change their minds. There is little you can do to change the mind of someone who has already made it up.
True, but what about the masses that haven't? Eventually, most are going to be swayed one way or the other, and which way those go is going to hinge on who has the best "ammo", the anti's or the pro's. God forbid that we as pro's should be the ones to give the anti's ammo ;) .

I have no problem with scenarios; even ones approaching left field (with the exception of zombies and aliens; we're not going THAT far out in left field). As mentioned, strange things do happen.

However, I am concerned when some of the responses to those threads lean more toward homicidal than self defense. We would all do well to remember that a firearm is the final option, and should never be the first, unless death or grave injury is imminent, and no other course of action is possible. Those who believe, and post, that a gun is the solution to every encounter, put us in a worse light than those posting those crazy scenarios.

Sir William
March 4, 2006, 11:17 PM
Speaking of weird. In Mayfield, KY a woman who was visiting her daughter was attacked by the daughters' dog. Severe bites, amputation and nerve damage for the 75 y/o mother. Citations for the daughter. The dogs fate has yet to be determined. Armed intervention or citations after the fact? Hard choice. The city council is preparing a set of ordinances to deal with vicious animals. A bit late. Life IS weird at times.

March 5, 2006, 12:06 AM
King, +1. Frankly, there is way too much keyboardcommando tactical talk going on.
There are hundreds of tactical/shooting courses offered by a myriad of qualified and experienced instructors all over the US. Having x,000 posts doesn't make you an experienced or qualified anythng. If you are armed, carry concealed, etc, it should be a necessity to attend some of these training courses. The concealed carry classes won't cut it.

Sir William
March 5, 2006, 02:55 AM
Bob Bondurant teaches excellent driving schools and one does practice the skills taught. Every licensed driver cannot attend such a school and become better and a defensive driver. Shooting schools, instructors and skill practice are great but, not easily afforded, accessed or even availible on demand. I really cannot put a down on anyone who is attempting awareness by reading up on safety, scenarios and requesting advice of others who have experience. IOWs, ask, task and use a mask of internet anonymity. A single question will probably get 50 different answers according to differing state laws anyway.

March 5, 2006, 10:27 AM
King, you're a hunter. So am I, but I'm also a retired LEO, an avid target and recreational shooter, and a former competitive shooter. I guess that I should throw in that I'm also a combat veteran.

Not all shooters fall into just ONE classification. For that matter, there are gun owners that may have inherited some firearms, or bought some firearms....but have NEVER even fired them! They have the "right" to possess firearms, and they've exercised that "right", but only have them for "just in case".

The anti-gun groups have done their homework. There seems to be a LOT of "hunters" that thumb their noses as "assault weapon" owners and/or people who have been issued permits to carry concealed weapons. The anti-gun folks haven't touched "hunters" yet....or have they?

Here's a description of a rifle, and you tell me if it is STRICTLY a "hunting" rifle: Winchester model 70, chambered for .30'06, topped with a Redfield 10x40mm rifle scope.

Answer: It was used for "hunting", alright, but not the 4-legged critters! It was what Carlos Hathcock carried, as a USMC sniper in Vietnam! Some of you may think that Hathcock used a "tricked-out" .308 "sniper" rifle for all of his 93 confirmed kills in combat....but his first "sniper" rifle was, basically, that Model 70 in .30'06....and it was basically a "hunting"-type of rifle!

If the anti-gun folks and MISINFORMED news media can call a .223 caliber AR-15 rifle with a scope a "sniper" rifle (think back to the hysteria of the "D.C. Sniper"), then a more powerful "hunting" rifle might someday be classified as being some sort of "WMD"!

As a deer hunter, I always carry a handgun as well. Why? Well, I'd rather "dispatch" a wounded deer cleanly, with only one rifle round, but I've used my .38 special revolver to put 2 deer out of their pain and misery. That trusty .38 special revolver also came in QUITE handy as a "noise maker" when I was in-between a mama black bear and her cub. It scared the pudding out of the cub, and caused mama bear to halt her attack on me! Of course, there's always the possibility of running into a rattlesnake while hunting!

Yes, you're a "hunter"....but you're also a "shooter"! Lest I forget, hunters have to contend with another group of folks....the "animal rights" crazies of PETA! Hunters are "evil" in their minds! I don't think that PETA is against the target and recreational shooters, though! Just don't kill animals, even if the sick and elderly deer need to be "thinned-out" for the survival of the rest of the herd!

Garand Illusion
March 5, 2006, 10:44 PM
King ...

As other people have pointed out, you're allowing your lack of interest in tactical weapons to separate you from the shared cause of all shooters. We either hold on to our guns together or lose them separately. Because the Brady bunch wants your guns gone as badly as mine.

Since I'm not a hunter, why would I want the NRA and the CSSA fighting for Hunter's rights with my membership $$? Because it's all part of the overall battle with the shared enemy.

In terms of the "scenarios," which I agree get silly with some bad individual answers, what you're missing here is the concept of "collective intelligence," which is what the internet -- and free speech in general -- is all about.

If I post a scenario, I'll get a bunch of replies. Some of them will be crap. But by watching who's saying what, by applying it to what I already know, by seeing where the most intelligent responses overlap -- well, I can find the truth in there. And there are a lot of good responses and well thought out replies.

And yes, I've taken a couple of courses, but you know what ... they were 2 days discussion total, and the situations discussed were based on questions by the class and experiences by the teacher. Here on TFL I've seen days and days worth of discussion -- with worthy answers to all.

Instead of putting some troll posts here, why not read and learn?

March 6, 2006, 12:11 AM
The anti-gun crowd can twist or spin even the most innocent of statements into an example of "those crazy gun nuts."

For most people who don't own guns, guns are usually seen with something akin to disdain, or a hint of fear.

Just the existance of this website or similar sites and the obvious interest or gusto with which the participants discuss the minute details of guns, shooting, hunting, and handloading to most non-gunners is considered by them to be abnormal at best and typically frightening. (Best way to win someone over, take them shooting.)

One might think that this view is shared exclusively amongst the anti-gun crowd or those that are unfamiliar with guns, it is not. I know many shotgunners and hunters who have the same or similar attitudes towards handgunners or military type rifle shooters. Some hunters I know could really care less about guns, it is just the tool they use to hunt deer or fowls with, they use a modern rifle or shotgun during firearm season, a muzzle loader during blackpowder/muzzle loader season, and a bow during bow season. If you were to mention a "right to keep and bear arms" or using a firearm for self-defense to them they would roll their eyes and shake their head - as in "oh, you're one of those nuts."

I don't really have much if any problem with the vast majority of posts here or most other sites. In fact if one thinks this site is ever over the top or bad then I would suggest that they first take a look at many of the other gun sites out there. This site is tame by comparison.

Some buzz words and terms that generally elicit the eye-roll response - militia - tyranny - tactics - rights - inalienable - revolution - abusive government - liberty - military gear - TEOTWAWKI - survivialism - bug out bag. This site is relatively light on those things. But funny thing is if you read the Declaration of Independence a lot of those things are mentioned or referenced. Those darn gunnut founding fathers. Oops, there goes another one of those terms - founding fathers.

I for one would rather not see heavily censored speech - self-censored by self-concious PC concerns.

I may agree that some posts are not reflective of reality - but if the person posting it believes that it is, then I would rather see them post it and have it refuted by others, than have them or others with similar thoughts who don't post go around believing without debate that their views reflect reality.

I would rather see things discussed than not discussed. At least cooler and more sage points of view have a chance to prevail.

As far as the posts related to movies, zombies, TEOTWAWKI, ect... I would think that most thinking individuals would realize that they are tongue in cheek and just fun. While firearms must be treated and handled with care and respect - there is also nothing wrong with having fun and aknowledging that "yes, guns can be fun." If I went through my life taking everything dead seriously and being very self-concious about what anyone might think of everything I say, do, or think - then I would have condemned myself to a miserable life. Conversely, if I were to sit around and do the same to others in judging them, I would have similarly condemned myself to a life of misery.

Serious tactics and using a gun for self-defense is a serious part of life. Some choose not to deal with that fact and that is their choice. But there is also time to play, to think about unlikely senarios, improbable situations, and yes occassionally even goofy ones. Handloaders talk about that twenty caliber something loaded in a necked downed fifty case. Hunters talk about that fifteen foot bear. Fishermen about the one that got away.

Are there immature posts here, are there individuals who sometimes sound as if they hope to have to use their gun in a self-defense shooting? Yes, but that is part of learning and growing. Hopefuly those individuals will learn, grow, and mature. But if they are shutout of the learning process then how can that happen? How did those sage and wise men get that way, through the experience of living, once they were young and foolish too. And even sage and wise men still have a lot of learning to do. Sometimes they still even want to have "fun."

Perhaps I am wrong in my judgement, but that is part of the debate isn't it.


March 6, 2006, 09:49 AM
Sir William,

I really cannot put a down on anyone who is attempting awareness by reading up on safety, scenarios and requesting advice of others who have experience. IOWs, ask, task and use a mask of internet anonymity.

Spoken like a gentleman. Often those with vast expierience forget that once upon a time they had question which needed answers. Some that had obvious answers but needed verification, ect. While some are silly and far fetched, others are genuine and deserving of an answer. There is no place here or anywhere for folks who desire to kill others and are actively seeking a justifiable means to do so. The moderators should remove threads of these types so that the anti's don't get "ammo" from an otherwise educational venue.

King, In a free society if one doesn't like what he see's or reads he has the right to go away and stay away. Please use your rights. We already have members on tactics and training trying to clean up the wierdo's and wack jobs. Members who contribute to this forum.

March 6, 2006, 10:04 AM
But fantasy and paranoia are so much more fun than reality! :rolleyes:

I don't know about anybody else, but I certainly get to the point where I want to tell people to stop worrying and just enjoy their guns.

I thank the TFL staff and some members for putting the brakes on some of the more flagrant daydreaming.

March 6, 2006, 11:01 AM
King..I too started here after being an avid hunter and shooter. Honestly I wonder about some on this board as being a little too paranoid. Granted I feel every non-criminal adult in the US should have some sort of firearm if they chose to own one. I get a little worried, by the Rambo, carrying 5 guns on one person, and a gun in every room of the house types. Some of these guy probably live in low crime areas. If they want to live the paranoid lifestyle that is there right.

March 6, 2006, 11:01 AM
King..I too started here after being an avid hunter and shooter. Honestly I wonder about some on this board as being a little too paranoid. Granted, I feel every non-criminal adult in the US should have some sort of firearm if they chose to own one. I get a little worried by the Rambo or wannbe cop types carrying 5 guns on their person, and a gun in every room of the house. Some of these guys probably live in low crime areas, but if they want to live the paranoid lifestyle that is their right.

March 6, 2006, 11:44 AM
Sir William, I agree with you regarding some people not being able to afford courses. But that is a small few. Really, if you can afford to purchase a weapon, you should be able, and willing, to shell out the money to go get some training on that weapon. Many course run less than $200 for a couple of days.
The error net (ala Pat Rogers) is full of just that...errors. Mostly written by people who either do not know, but want to look like they know; only know part of the truth; or simply make -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- up.
I certainly would not go to a forum to get legal advice on a pending lawsuit against me. I would go see a lawyer. I couldn't learn how to properly do speed reloads, shoot/no shoot decision making, immediate actions, etc w/o going to the range and learning from someone who knows. Otherwise, I would stand a very good chance of learning bad habits that could get me or someone else killed.
The driving school analogy is good. However, most Americans drive every day without the problem of fight or flight responses coursing through their veins. Obvioulsy a problem when in a gunfight where the body falls back on its training.
Do not get me wrong, forums where TTPs can be discussed is great and valuable. I just feel that people take much of what is said as gospel, and then head out to storm the castle.
I certainly was not taught to drive by reading some notes and then getting to it. Training (vice plinking) should be the same. My thoughts

March 6, 2006, 12:05 PM
Mike, I once lived in a high crime area. While I never saw the need of carrying more than one gun, I did have several guns placed in different areas of my home, including the bathroom. The thing is I wasn't paranoid. Paranoia is defined as

a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Paranoid is defined as extremely fearful

I did consider a higher probability that my home would be broken into while I was in the room furthest away from my only availible gun.....AKA murphy's law. I had no fear just wanted to give myself the best chance to win. It is called prepared defined as

to work out the details of : plan in advance <preparing strategy for the coming campaign>

I carry an AR-15 in my bass boat. Is that paranoid or prepared? I carry a concealed weapon. Paranoid or prepared? I think the key word is being extremely fearful. I am not although some including family have called me paranoid. Guess who they call when bad things happen and they need to get prepared, yep they call the paranoid one.

My sister one day said now I know why you carry. Her neighbor successfully fought off a would be rapist while bathing in her home less than 50 yards away from my sisters house. I guess my sister is now paranoid because we got her a 38 special and a shotgun to go along with the new alarm system.

March 6, 2006, 12:10 PM
threegun, I mean this honestly and am not trying to be snide, but where are you taking your bass boat that you feel you need an AR-15?

March 6, 2006, 12:34 PM
Breacherup, I practice reloading, mock jam drills, weak hand shooting, one hand reloads, one hand shooting, front sight location, movement to cover, maintaining a proper shooting platform while moving and shooting, retention drills, ect. I drill the importance of keeping situational awareness. I shoot competitively as well. If you can afford school go for it. If you can't learning from those who have like I did is possible. It is more difficult but possible. Much of what I already do daily is taught at gunsite and thunder ranch. Lets remind everyone that simply attending 2 or 3 courses at the very finest schools doesn't make you as good as the teacher. You have to repeat the drills over and over both at the range and at home to get good and stay good.

March 6, 2006, 12:52 PM
Leif, It's only a rifle. I take it with me on most outings but those on the harris and kissimmee chains are a sure thing as would be Okeechobee and the Everglades. I have been doing so since Gary Klien a proffesional bass fisherman got shot at by an angry homeowner. One the water you are a sitting duck pardon the pun. If someone chose to us a rifle on you like they did Klien, only a rifle would level the field. It doesn't take up to much storage so what the heck.

March 6, 2006, 01:00 PM
I didn't realize you were out in the Glades, that makes a little more sense. Thanks for the explanation.

March 6, 2006, 01:11 PM
Leif, Are the Glades particularly bad? Like worst than the others? My reason for carrying it is as a direct result of what happened to Klien, not anything that has happened on the water or even gators. Gary Kliens incident got me thinking that I wasn't as prepared as I could be by simply adding the rifle.

March 6, 2006, 02:04 PM
3gun. I agree 100%. My point was more directed at people unwilling to GO OUT and GET training, but rather read about it on the internet and say, "Game on!" But you make a good reminder regarding constantly training perishable skill sets.

March 6, 2006, 02:36 PM
I went thru a period when my second son was born and my wife got post pardom depression, where I didn't train for close to a year. You are dead on about rust. It didn't take long to freshen up but I did regress a bit. The fact that I was very into training prior to the layoff I think helped me not lose as much as someone who trains less frequently.