View Full Version : we the sheep

January 2, 2006, 11:56 PM
The cold truth.
First degree murder is easier than self defense.
Most of us are like sheep in this system. We are consumers and we do the same stuff every day. If a BG walked into the room that you are in as you sit at your computer you would not be ready. Even if you had a loaded gun in your hands, you would not be ready unless you expected him and you were waiting for him. Sometimes I wonder why I try to be ready...

January 3, 2006, 12:06 AM
Best thing we can do is put enough locks on our doors that it takes more than one stiff kick for someone to gain access. In that few seconds, one can get ready. I've heard some very startling noises outside my apartment before and was ready to rock in roll inside of two seconds.

That's only speaking for home, though. It takes quite a bit of mental energy to maintain a constant awareness of one's surroundings when out for a walk and carrying a good load on your back, or what have you.

psycho nut
January 3, 2006, 12:07 AM
that's actually a very good point, everyone talks about being ready. When the time finally comes, unless you know what's happening, you won't be ready.

January 3, 2006, 12:08 AM
Yes, it is a good topic, and one that isn't much talked about. Hopefully there will be lots of feedback.

January 3, 2006, 12:37 AM
Settle down, Beavis...

But ... In principle, I agree totally. I work for a gummint contractor. I used to work in an office. No guns. Somehow the "no guns" rule worked itself into my mentality. Regardless of the scenario, I was unprepared to deal with much of anything. It took - of all things - a power outage in my office building for me to realize that I was asleep at the wheel ... or computer. So I started bringing a flashlight to work, and always made sure my cell phone was charged and on my belt. 2 routes minimum out of the building - check. With no guns allowed, that was about the maximum I could do.

Now, I have the luxury of working from home. I can - and do - wear my pistol on my belt. I know who comes and goes on our farm. I know what times the mail lady, delivery services and trash service runs. I know what time my wife comes in for lunch. Anything else gets my awareness cranked up a couple notches. That's not paranoia - that's a man who lives in an area with a serious meth problem.

I don't think it's excuseable, but it's a valid statement about our society. Even when the phrase "a failure of imagination" entered our lexicon (coming up on 5 years), we still can't seem to apply that lesson to our daily lives. We're all guilty - to at least some degree - of failing to imagine what could be coming down the pipe.

Frankly, in my not-so-humble opinion, we've allowed the "news" media and the spineless elements of our society to lead us to believe that any level of preparedness or awareness is paramount to "paranioa".

To a great degree, we're all suffering a failure of imagination.

January 3, 2006, 12:47 AM
I usually pride myself on my "situational awareness"... but the one time i was robbed... i was at a bus stop. then my cell phone rings and its someone i want to talk to. i answer. all of a sudden two punks with a knife say "give me your money and your phone"... and my phone was ripped from my hands. struggle ensued...

My situational awareness was nonexistant. I trained in martial arts for years but stopped due to a demanding job (i'm convinced i would have reacted differently if i was still training or maybe not even gotten into the situation). I hit the first guy out of pure instinct but my brain was overloaded. I couldn't respond to the guy in front of me and the guy to the side of my with the knife.

There's a military tactical philosphy called maneuver warfare that comes to mind. The idea is to move fast and attack the enemy's weakspots from multiple directions overloading the enemies' ability to respond. Similar to the OODA loop concept where you off balance your enemy by attacking so quickly that by the time the enemy can respond to your last move you're already doing your next.
That's what happened to me. There were two guys one with a knife... and there was nobody else around. They had the initiative... my brain was still processing the phone call... after i punched the 1st guy the 2nd guy was next to me... and i couldn't process it all..

so it pains me to say this.... I GAVE UP! i gave myself up to the mercy of two morons. and i gave them everything they wanted but they just wanted more. i only had bus money on me and they got pretty mad that all they got from me was a cell phone and my $1. they did go through my wallet but they weren't interested in all the things i cared about (license, credit cards, keys, etc..)
and they were mad so the 2nd guy actually cut my throat... he was nervous too so it wasn't a deep cut but it was enough to freak me out. i was thinking oh great i'm going to die over $1...

I noticed several people just walk by... one couple a woman said is that guy being stabbed.. and her male partner say not our problem let's just walk away. I was thinking oh great the sheep of america are just going to walk by me and let me die here on the sidewalk. lots of people walked by (it was a bus stop). and when the two assailants left... i asked one of the bystanders to give me their phone to call the police. basically learned that you can NOT rely on other people and the police to save you. i'd be better off hoping the punisher or batman would come and save me.

now i carry a pistol but more importantly i'm more aware of my surroundings.

the guy one the phone heard the whole thing as the phone fell to the ground and he could hear shouting like "you wanna die m*therf*cker!! give me your money!!". he told me later he called the police but had no idea where i was.

anyway the point is... at the moment of truth... i was NOT ready. NOT READY at all. and i learned that the time you'll most likely be attacked is when you are NOT READY. that's sort of the point right? criminals attack the people who aren't ready... so that means you'll probably be attacked when you aren't ready. because if you are ready... you probably won't be a victim.

January 3, 2006, 02:28 AM
That's one incident that shakes me to my core just thinking about. Glad you're okay. I do a lot of walking around, at night, and I expect that someone may attempt to rob me at some point. It's a pretty low-crime area, but things change...

January 3, 2006, 03:47 AM

WOW! What a brutally honest review of the incident and your reaction. I would like to copy and print it out for my guys. We're getting ready to go on block leave and I'd like to use your experience to illustrate a couple of points about remaining situationally aware now that we're home. Thank you for posting that.


January 3, 2006, 11:07 AM
If a BG walked into the room that you are in as you sit at your computer you would not be ready.

Not when I'm in my house! Ever. Right now, without forethought of reading your post I am totally secure in the 2nd floor office of my house. I'm behind 3 steel exterior doors, all deadbolted. All windows are locked 24/7. My alarm system has a beeper that sounds whenever a door or window is opened. Last but not least, my 120lb Bullmastiff is curled up at my feet snoring up a storm. If the dog hears the alarm beep or glass break she's on it. Meanwhile I'm physically and mentally preparing for a fight. My CCW is on my hip, condition 1. All in all I'd say it would be a big mistake to force entry into my house.

Outside of my personal residence, I think your comment has weight. I have decided that its impossible to be 100% prepared 100% of the time. Unfortunatly that's what the crooks are counting on.

January 3, 2006, 12:06 PM
Thanks for sharing the story -

I'm just curious what actually transpired during the robbery - did the subject with the knife get behind you (he sliced your throat right) or was he standing, facing you (a more difficult picture for my mind).

I've also studied various forms of martial arts over several years and over time have been mugged twice - once by one lone subject and once by 2 punks (one armed with a knife) - however, both times my training kicked in before I had time to actually form any thought and the SHTF. The first incident ended quickly with the assailant unconscious on the ground, the second incident ended with one subject (the closest) writhing on the ground and the one with the knife ran off after taking a swing at me with the blade - I blocked the thrust with my forearm (not my brightest move) receiving a small gash but nothing serious. He was caught about an hour later.

Neither time did I have a weapon - except for my training. I certainly mean no disrespect or offense, however I would get back into your martial arts training and brush up on the skills involved with both bare hand and knife fighting techniques - we all need refresher courses now and then.

Glad your safe and able to share your experience.

January 3, 2006, 12:21 PM
I have decided that its impossible to be 100% prepared 100% of the time. Unfortunatly that's what the crooks are counting on.

Well said. How well you react under stress depends on how you train and prepare. Its been said before, I think someone has it for their sig line, "you never rise to the occasion, you revert to your level of training."

Para Bellum
January 3, 2006, 12:23 PM
Sometimes I wonder why I try to be ready...
...you raise your chances of survival. Before you have actually been in a real SD situation you can't tell, how you'd react. Martial Arts experts turn into sheep and a 165cm, 46Kg Mother can turn into a tiger defending her kids.
Without real cobat experience, you can't tell. That's why experienced soildiers are preferred by all commanders and platoon leaders. You have an idea what they will do unter attack...

But anyway, even if you turn into a tiger, having a variety of skill to let your reflexes choose from improves your chances drastically. If you turn out as a sheep - bad luck. But, honestly, I can't think of any animal that would give up when cornered without a fierce fight. They all fight. So why shouldn't you?

Thanks for sharing this. I know, afterwards everybody is an expert. But maybe just a thought: I also have some 20years of martial Arts and shooting behind me and I do carry several weapons 24/7. Still, I wouldn't fight for my cellphone and pocket money against a knife, and even less so, two guys with a knife. Your chances to get out there alive and without a major wound and without an HIV or HEP-C infection were very small. A phone and pocket money are a good price for avoiding the risk of a knife-fight at in a bus. Giving up was actually the smartest thing to do IMHO.

don't forget the element of surprise. If a hitman is comeing at you your're dead anyway. In any other situation, keeping a low profile, harmless looks and sharp skills are a great advantage. Playing harmless you can gain the time to get your wits ready, evaluate the situation and then decide whether at all, if so when, and how to fight.

Garand Illusion
January 3, 2006, 12:33 PM
Interesting discussion ... but few of us (actually none of us) can live our whole lives like a ninja -- a "coiled spring" ready to strike out at the first sign of trouble.

Good locks and a dog or alarm system can give you pretty good warning in your house. And hopefully everone who plans on using a gun for SD has already settled in their own mind that you can't just threaten with a gun at close range -- if you draw it, you've got to use it.

But walking on the street ... unless you spend your whole life living in the country and keeping everyone a few feet distant, you're only marginally more safe than those walking around ignoring everything around them. In a city, you do end up close to people and if your first sign of violence is a blow to the back of the head, a knife under the ribs or even a random gun shot that leaves you standing at the pearly gates wondering what happened while you were filling up with gas ... well, all that "ninja" preparedness is useless.

Not saying don't remain aware of your surroundings and take the precautions that seem necessary, but going through life in condition red just seems like a stressful way to live and a good way to die young from a heart attack (the ultimate irony -- dying young by trying to protect your life too hard).

Whatever you need to do ... but seems like a waste of perfectly good adrenaline to me. All humans in danger will instinctively react to it, although the instinctive reaction may not be the best one. That's where training comes in -- controlling that instinctive reaction.

January 3, 2006, 05:04 PM
going through life in condition red just seems like a stressful way to live

So you are serious about preserving your life... In addition to carrying a loaded gun and practicing its usage regularly, do you eat healthy foods and exercise regularly? Do you bathe every day? Do you always wash your hands after using the restroom and before every meal? Do you brush your teeth after every meal? Do you drink, smoke, or speed?

January 3, 2006, 05:12 PM
Simply thinking about what could happen/what you would do puts you miles ahead of the rest of the "flock":D

awareness and options are what it is all about

For too many the handgun is some sort of talisman that magically makes them prepared(in their own minds)

Once the Bad Guy closes to contact distance your ability to deploy a handgun approaches zero unless you have trained for that eventuality

And even then....shame on you for letting him get that close....

January 3, 2006, 05:21 PM
Most of us are like sheep in this system. We are consumers and we do the same stuff every day.
granted, we can't be on guard 100% of the time. theres always going to be a blind spot. i'd say that i am on top of my game about 70% of the time. even if it was only 50%, or 20%, my chances of surviving a violent attack are still better than before i took an interest in my own personal safety.

January 3, 2006, 05:28 PM
60% of the time, I am on top of my surroundings 90% of the time.

The other 40%, I am only about 25% aware.

Give or take...:rolleyes:

January 3, 2006, 06:09 PM
Control is an illusion. We have no more control over what is going to happen in any situation then we have over the possibility that the sun is going to come out tomorrow. The best we can all do is try and prepare ourselves physically, emotionally, and mentally for the greatest number of situations we can think of. The killer is that the situation you never thought of will be the one that tests you. Be vigilant, always. Don't live your life believing that every place is dangerous, just make sure you believe that every place is not absolutely safe.

And if the time ever comes that you absolutely must defend your life or loose it.... ATTACK and be RUTHLESS in pursuit of your own protection or that of your loved ones.

January 3, 2006, 06:09 PM
Azredhawk, were you a math major, by any chance? :eek:


January 3, 2006, 06:44 PM
czc, thats why they invented door locks, dogs, and alarms. Geez.

January 3, 2006, 07:06 PM
...because if a person doesn't even try to be ready...then they are a sheep. Training is priceless for so many things, not just HD and shooting. I teach Martial Arts, I tell my students to train-drill-train-drill so that they will be able to overcome situations that I hope will never become a reality. The benefits go beyond being able to whack someone around, there are the physical conditioning/Health/Coordination/Self Confidence/Mental Alertness etc. that go along with it...far beyond the "Kung Fu Fighting" stuff. Just curious...did something just happen to you to make you feel this way?

January 3, 2006, 07:12 PM
Anyone on this forum is more aware than the general population. Anyone with a CHL is far more prepared than 99% of people. The general public is so unaware of there surroundings I swear a bomb could off and no one would notice.

i once saw a tv show where they two actors, male and female, stage a domestic dispute/roughing up fight. Out of about 60 people, two stopped and helped. One called the police (who were already cued up to what was going on).


January 3, 2006, 08:03 PM
i once saw a tv show where they two actors, male and female, stage a domestic dispute/roughing up fight. Out of about 60 people, two stopped and helped. One called the police

I think that this is a good example of the "Kitty Genovese Syndrome." As individuals within a group, most people don't get involved because they assume someone else will. If you find yourself in a life or death confrontation "on the street," don't count on any outside help.


Garand Illusion
January 3, 2006, 09:11 PM
Once I was driving through a bad section of town and saw a man punching a woman at a bus stop. It seemed apparent that it was a pimp and his employee, and he was considerably scarier and meaner looking than I was. Plus I was in a part of town where my skin color made me stand out. This was before either CCW or cell phones, so I found myself turning away and continuing on my drive.

I still feel bad about letting a woman get hit, irregardless of race or occupation, but what else could I do?

Very often when a violent situation breaks out either you are unprepared to intervene (i.e. two guys knifing another guy -- no point in getting involved unless you have a CCW -- best you can do is call the PD from a safe distance) or you don't know the situation (are the two guys knifing a druggie who attacked them? Are there 4 more members of the others guys gang about to appear and start shooting?).

When the victim is obvious, and obviously a person at risk, the results are often different.

Some years ago here in Denver a news station did a test where they used actors to have an old lady pretend to be knocked down by a purse thief and then yell for help "My social security check! Stop him!"

Every male in the area pretty much responded. They had to quit the testing because the actor doing the stealing was getting tackled before he could explain what was up. Made me feel good about the whole state!

When they did similar testing with a young victim, the results were different.

In a round about way, I guess I'm just agreeing that you can't really count on others to come to your aid when under attack. But then ... there aren't many situations where you would be able to come to a total stranger's aid either.

In a decent city like Denver, I think you can count on someone to call the police/help you out when you're on the ground bleeding. Does depend on what part of town you're in.

January 4, 2006, 02:13 AM
Just curious...did something just happen to you to make you feel this way?
I was thinking about getting a packing permit and I realized that I am not really that serious about preserving my life. I do not eat healthy foods as often as I should and I do not exercise. And I do not brush my teeth after every meal. http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16686&stc=1&d=1136357111 I realized that I did not buy my handguns for self defense/self preservation. I got them for sport. I am a gun nut and I like guns! :)

But like "The gun is ALWAYS loaded" rule, the BG is ALWAYS ready. So even If you are ready when the SHTF (both mentally and physically which is highly unlikely unless you are in the safety of your home) your chances are still only 50 - 50 because the BG is ready.
Another point might be... If a BG wants to rob you and kill you, he would probably kill you before he robs you. I dont see how you would have a chance to survive. If the BG just wants to rob you... (lets assume that he is unarmed) Are you going to shoot him or are you going to give him your money? It seems like a smart thief would not carry a weapon in self defense. I dont think that would hold up in court. And if you use deadly force against him when he is unarmed, if he survives, he could sue you. Correct me if I am wrong. :confused:

*edited to add*
I dont think that you would even need a weapon to rob most sheep.

Garand Illusion
January 4, 2006, 02:34 AM
czc -- that is one of the best thought out and most honest replies I've read. I've often thought like you and I agree with your logic.

Like you, I bought all my guns for sport and shooting. It wasn't until about 2 years ago, when I got my CCL (never really intending to use it) that I bought my first gun strictly intended for defense.

I often think like you, that having a firearm isn't going to truly protect my life in very many situations -- and I'm not interested in using a firearm to protect my property.

But, when I think over my several decades of life and what I've seen ...

There was that time a few polite comments to a white trash drunkard in the woods turned him into a red faced, shrieking fiend waving his arms and preparing to charge and "kick my ass". I could barely understand a word he was saying, but he kept patting at the large lockback knife on his belt. If he pulled that and charged, I would have been defenseless; and he was NOT showing any common sense whatsoever.

There are those mass shootings that occasionally happen. I realize the chances of being at one of those are like 1 in 1 billion. But turn the odds around ... suppose just 5% of all adults in the US carrying and trained with a concealed weapon. When some nut starts doing a mass shooting, what are the odds someone will be there to stop him? By carrying a firearm as a law abiding adult, I'm part of the solution. I'll almost certainly never see such a thing, but if everyone says that then no one will be there to resist when they happen.

Another time I was walking down the mall in Boulder, co (normally an awesome place to be) when I saw a mean looking bum pushing around some elementary school kids who had bumped him and made him spill the drink he had. He was demanding money for payback. I forced him to leave the kids alone, took some abuse myself, but eventually he walked away. He wasn't threatening to me himself (I was younger than and bigger than him), but what if he had produced a weapon?

I saw a helpless reginald denny (name?) get dragged out of his truck and beaten nearly to death by some crazed kids in the LA riots. It was during a riot, but those kids had no backup but each other. If he'd had a gun, could he have defended himself long enough to drive away? Admittedly hard to say on that one, and hard to say if he would have recognized the level of threat in time to take action.

I totally agree that in a large percentage of violence that the normal citizen is involved in, a gun will play no part. Keeping an eye on surroundings and being alert is much more important. But there ARE situations where it could come in to play and save your life. We've seen plenty of those scenarios here.

I just figure since carrying is legal and easy, why not? I never carried before it was legal, but now I find myself doing it more and more. Still not 24/7, but most times that it makes sense ...

My .02. Thanks for your well thought out post.

January 4, 2006, 03:36 AM
My martial arts class taught me in a mutliple situation to attack the closest person first, then grab onto them and keep them between you and the other attackers, while still keeping the first one incapacitated.

I'm at work right now, and guns are not allowed in the building. We can have them in the car. So mine is locked in a car safe. I do have a flashlight with me however, and a knife.

January 4, 2006, 06:48 AM
being a paramedic here in indy, i've been on numerous stabbings and shootings. Even though we don't respond till police arrive first and make sure the scene is safe, i still find myself looking in all directions before,during and after treating the patient. I still say we should be able to carry, even though some do.:cool:

January 4, 2006, 09:23 AM
Our Paramedic always carried, LE was 30min. away, He never had to use it, but It was reassuring to the responding EMTS.
This is one of the best threads i've seen on the forum.

January 4, 2006, 09:31 AM
Freezing...I watch the videos of the Tsunami and though some of those people were stupid for just standing there watching the wave come in...then about 4 months later I stood there motionless and slack-jawed as I watched a large section of drop ceiling collapse in a diner I was eating in. Nobody got hurt but it could have easily been a structural failure of the diner's roof and I would have still been standing there trying to process the event while I got crushed to death. Moral of the story is everyone here could freeze when thing change from regular and mundane to dramatic and life threatening in a heartbeat. Situational awareness is key, but sometime you will be caught with you pants down. Its not like the BG mugger is going to pick out the someone who is looking over his shoulder every second with his hand in his pocket holding a possible weapon as his next victim.

My $.02 is my life is not worth what I have in my wallet. Since I was born and raise in Philadelphia and spent a few years living in the NYC area, I pride myself with my situational awareness, however if I get caught in a mugging unaware and find myself in a no win situation, I would give up my money in a heartbeat. If it goes beyond that, I fight for my life, and that means gun, knife, and proven dirty fighting tactics. I haven't train in martial arts for several years now, and as I look back, I had a false sense of confidence on my ability. A mugger will most likely be stronger and better at a street fight then me, so I am sticking with a few proven strikes and moves (Pratice until it is muscle memory) that will put down someone down quickly. I'm in my mid 30's with kids, I'm too old and out of shape to fist fight a bunch of your young guys with weapons for more than a minutes or two.

At home, I have layered defenses. Locked doors and windows, security system, and a dog, will give me enough warning to prepare for an intruder. Same mindset there, I have a 2 story house with all the bedrooms on the second floor. Plan is, the wife calls 911 and I would get my weapon (and giving one to my wife) and after a quick sweep of the upstairs, I would defend the top of the stairs. If the BG stays downstair and is only looking to steal property, I would sit tight and let LE respond (maybe yelling to the BG to get the **** out of my house). The only reason a BG would go upstair is they intend to do something beyond stealing, and for that I fight for my life, but this time I'm ready.

January 4, 2006, 01:21 PM
I work on Federal Property where firearms arre a no-no in the office. I do carry a Cold Steel Ti-Lite in my pocket which is legal in this state.

Since I also work with supplies I have one of those Big Army Kitchen knives in my closet in the office...lol

January 4, 2006, 07:50 PM
Possible intrusion is one of the reasons when company is not around I always have a few guns lying around when awake. When asleep they are are in the bedroom. We have no kids to worry about. I am safe and have taught my girlfriend how to use my guns just in case. Plus, I just found out there is a sex offender living in our building (next door). From what I saw on his report he seems harmless enough, but I have a 1911 hidden for my girlfriend just in case.

I am not a sheep! I just live among them! Free thinking individual right here, and damn proud of it!!!!:D I follow my heart and mind, and those alone. Faith has no place in my rationale. Just the truth and facts.

January 4, 2006, 08:39 PM
being a paramedic here in indy, i've been on numerous stabbings and shootings. Even though we don't respond till police arrive first and make sure the scene is safe, i still find myself looking in all directions before,during and after treating the patient. I still say we should be able to carry, even though some do.

I used to know a paramedic in Chicago who carried one of those huge steel Maglite flashlights in his ambulance for this very reason.

January 6, 2006, 04:37 AM
I am not a sheep! I just live among them!
So the sex offender living next door is a sheep?

January 7, 2006, 05:16 AM

January 7, 2006, 11:11 AM
I am a Project manager for an HVAC company in PA. We do about 70% school work. There are times where I am in the worst parts of the city for most of the day but I can not carry because there is a chance that I may be at a school that day for ten minutes. I was unable to carry this entire summer because of this. Legally my Surefire E2D and my Emerson folder are considered weapons and have been told to remove them from the property of a school. Most of the schools we work at are not in bad areas but a few have been in the worst areas. I have come to the conclusion that I am pretty much screwed. My only tactic is to hope that nothing bad ever happens to me. I have seen fistfights, drug deals, drug busts, people driving slowly around you with tinted windows that stop and stare at you periodically, and some stoned guy threaten my workers. One time I worked in a school attached to a set of "projects" in the morning. Two hours after I left I heard on the radio that someone was just shot and killed within 50 feet of where I was at. I could go on and on. Just wanted to vent my dillema.

January 8, 2006, 01:22 AM
My close-in support defense dog knows my habits before I do, and I only realize them when I recognize her movements. (Too many instances to get into here)--she knows me better than I know myself!

The point is, people pick up on different things and react accordingly. I tell her to "go potty" and if she ain't gotta go, she won't move. Nothing I could humanely do will get her to get up and go outside. I guess she's like me, if told she's "gotta" she won't, if told she "can't" she will. It has to make sense to do something, doing something just because someone tells you to makes no sense. Sheeple don't/can't understand this or just choose to ignore this.

Sheeple follow the other sheep. They are all fed the same slop, and when it comes time, they are all sheared, stripped of all they have, against their will and horrified at the experience, let loose (in a bigger fenced-in area), made to feel safe again, until the next shearing. After years of this it becomes no big deal. But there comes a time when they are led, not to a shearing, but to slaughter, and yet they do not recognize the difference until it is too late.

The shepherd dog is taken care of to look after these sheep. Fed, housed and basically left alone to do it's job. When the need arises for it protect the sheep in it's ward, it will fight and even sacrifice it's life for them The shepherd dog doesn't line up with the sheep to get sheared, nor does it eat the same slop they do.

To avoid becoming a "sheeple" stop feeding on the daily slop of "news", quit swallowing PC rhetoric, stop getting in line to "if it just saves one, it's worth it" movements. Sheeple are leading their way to their own "slaughter" through rhetoric. (look at Australia, Canada, Europe, etc.) Let them. Protect those you can, educate young ones in your care, pass on personal self preservation and personal responsibility, instill logic to those that are capable.

One day, sheeple will have had enough of what they have wrought and plead for protection from the "bad" protector. It is up to our generation to make sure there is a few to do what is right for future generations.