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View Full Version : Am I disinterested in the 9mm because.....


aspen1964
September 16, 2005, 10:52 PM
..it is not an American developed cartridge????...now I know nothing about the 9mm's history, so I am guessing it was a European developed cartridge(metric sizing)...I think it is a good round but just can't get myself to want to buy a gun chambered for it.....????? :confused: ..maybe a hopelessly Americanized American...

jonathon
September 16, 2005, 11:00 PM
Best not shoot 30.06 then, it's based off the 8mm Mauser! :D

I'm not sure what it is, but I like 9x19.

I also like .45's :D

But my prefered SD round is 9x19.

Mark54g
September 16, 2005, 11:01 PM
its a good round. Many good rounds were not developed here, but that doesn't mean much. The original 9mm ammo was of questionable power. With the developments made in the last 15 or so years, it has become a front runner. The ammo is readily available, cheap and is also relatively forgiving for shooters.

You may want to try one eventually as so many good guns are chambered for it. Go try a CZ 75B or P-01. You will buy a 9mm some day :)

Browning did make the Hi Power, if that helps you Americanize it a little :D

Topthis
September 16, 2005, 11:05 PM
C'mon man...are you serious or just bored tonight? You won't own a 9mm, because it is not an American round? Please tell me that you just wanted to yank everyones chain tonight!!

jonathon
September 16, 2005, 11:05 PM
Ranger T's :D

aspen1964
September 16, 2005, 11:08 PM
..for those who read the original thread so fast they missed my meaning..I was wondering out loud why I am not interested enough in the 9mm to buy a handgun chambered for it....(hope I don't need to say this a 3rd time)...

jonathon
September 16, 2005, 11:11 PM
I understand what you said.

And I think a lot of the anti-9mm's feel that way. Though most of them will hide behind the false claim to stopping power, you are honest :)

Garand Illusion
September 17, 2005, 01:09 AM
One of the reasons I love the 1911 .45 is that it's a pure American military weapon (if .45 was developed by some lab in Tasmania or something, please don't tell me -- I don't want to know). From the bullet to the gun design.

That just gives it sentimental value, though -- has nothign to do with what I choose to shoot -- just makes it a special weapon in my tiny collection. For reasons of price I most often shoot 9mm or .38. Both are fine cartridges as well.

1911's are just ... cool.

Combat Kenny
September 17, 2005, 04:43 AM
Hi guys and gals,

I hope that I can help:

9X19 was developed in Germany and made popular with the P.08 Luger.

.45 ACP was developed in US by Colt and John Browning.

But then again, .40 SW and the .44 Mag was developed my S&W, US.

The 9X19 is the most cheapest to shoot, besides the .22. And since the US military has adapt to it; it is one of the most, if not the most, popular round. .40 and .45 are great too, don't get me wrong. But I would say, don't think of the origin, but what are you comfortable in shooting. With the stock system as it is today. There are bound to have american stock holders in European stocks. And the other way around.

Good luck and good shooting.

jacobtowne
September 17, 2005, 08:20 AM
Everyone is assuming Aspen meant the 9mm Luger, when in fact he never said that. All he said was 9mm. There are several different 9mm cartridges.

JT

GunsnRovers
September 17, 2005, 08:36 AM
If you want an "American" reason to own 9mm, get a S&W M39.

JR47
September 17, 2005, 09:14 AM
There are quite a few American developed calibers. The .380, .38 S&W, .32 S&W, .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 ACP, .460 S&W, .480 Ruger, .454 Casull, and so on. The .30-06 is also an American round, as the RIFLE was based on the Mauser, not the caliber.

That said, most of us shoot what we want, and carry what we like. Where the round was developed a century ago is neither here nor there. If you just aren't interested in anything 9mm, don't worry, you're not going to miss much. There are plenty of other calibers in the same class.

By the way, were you talking about the 9mm P, or the 9mm Steyr, Glisenti, Mars, Largo, or another 9mm? There have been a bunch, including an abortive attempt to make a 9mm revolver round. :)

Zekewolf
September 17, 2005, 11:52 AM
Ignorance? Isn't that what not knowing anything about something means? The nationalistic rationale for choosing calibers is...just vacuous.

Webleymkv
September 17, 2005, 12:05 PM
I'll help you out with you 9mm history. In 1900 DWM came out with the first Luger pistol chambered in the bottlenecked 7.65 Parabellum round (.30 Luger to Americans). It sold OK and a few countries (Switzerland being the most notable) adopted it and the US military even held trials for it. The German Military was looking very closely at the pistol and even though the round performed reasonably well, they apparently had that obsession with bore diameter that many of us suffer from. Georg Luger, the pistol's designer, satisfied the Germans without substatially redesigning the gun by simply eliminating the bottleneck (and consequently slightly shortening) the 7.65 Parabellum giving us the ever popular 9mm Parabellum. The .45 ACP was designed by John Browning in response to the failures of the .38 Long Colt round (Similar ballistiaclly to the .38 S&W) on the Moro Tribesmen in the Phillpines (this was also the reason that the .38 Special was developed). It duplicated the ballistics of the .45 Long Colt then in use in the 1873 Single Action Army and 1909 New Service revolvers but in a semiautomatic pistol. As a side note, two Luger pistols were made in .45 ACP for US Army trials. One of which is still in existance today and is worth millions of dollars. If you want an American 9mm, get a .380 (also known as 9mm kurtz or short) or a .38 Super (same bore diameter).

DAVID NANCARROW
September 17, 2005, 01:15 PM
Aspen-its time to ask the question:Why do you shoot in the first place?
Do you like or are impressed with recoil?

If so, the 9 is gonna be pretty boring unless you are shooting it in a very small/lightweight package.

That was my reasoning for not buying a 9 for a long time. No kick-kind of like shooting a 22 pistol.

Is it just because it seems like most folks have one?
Lots of people do, but it does not make it any less exciting to shoot. The round is accurate in a suitable pistol.

Are you in favor of a particular style of action, such as a revolver or 1911-both of which can be found in 9MM but are not commonly available?

I bought a 9 last year because my kid joined the army and is issued an M-9 and an M-4. Combat Medic. I bought a Beretta so he could practice at home and I have to say its fun for me to master a new platform. The only real beef I have with the 9 is that the cartridges are so much smaller than my favorite-45 ACP.
It feels as if I am trying to stuff rice grains into the Beretta mag. It was a big enough pain in the rear to load a new magazine that I bought one of those HKS loaders. It helps in long range sessions with new mag springs!

aspen1964
September 17, 2005, 02:05 PM
..lack of recoil can't be a reason..because sometime I want to get a good 22 revolver or automatic for plinking and target...in fact the 22 has to be one of my favorite rounds to shoot...

JohnKSa
September 17, 2005, 02:15 PM
The .45 ACP was designed by John Browning in response to the failures of the .38 Long Colt round (Similar ballistiaclly to the .38 S&W) on the Moro Tribesmen in the Phillpines (this was also the reason that the .38 Special was developed).Well, not exactly. The army switched to a .45 caliber round as a result of the Moro problems, but that was the .45LC, not the .45ACP. When the army decided to hold new pistol trials some years later, they specified something that approximated the performance of the .45LC. I guess you can trace the requirement for a .45 pistol cartridge back to the Moro problems, but it's not as direct a path as some think.

Jkwas
September 17, 2005, 05:07 PM
The 9mm is the perfect round. Big enough to do damage, and small enough for anyone to shoot. That's why it's the most popular. It's price bears this out.

amaverick
September 17, 2005, 05:11 PM
I purposely looked for a 9mm because they are probably the most available rounds in the world.

Majic
September 17, 2005, 07:38 PM
The .30-06 is also an American round, as the RIFLE was based on the Mauser, not the caliber.
The .30-06 is American, but the concept to use a smaller caliber and spitzer bullets was developed in Europe. So the .30-06 is based on the 7mm Mauser.

aaronrkelly
September 17, 2005, 08:57 PM
Browning did make the Hi Power, if that helps you Americanize it a little

Mr Browning designed the HP, Dieudonne Saive improved upon it and then Belgian state-owned company FN Herstal produced it for the Belgian Army. There is little Americanizing here, in fact almost none. It has a few features that were required by foreign armies - such as the magazine disconnect.

The Browning HPs are actually currently produced by FN Herstal so even buying a new Browning HP your still buying a foreign made weapons - but then most are anymore so its pointless.

JohnKSa
September 17, 2005, 09:35 PM
I don't know why you're disinterested in the 9mm.

I'm disinterested in a lot of things myself, including a wide variety of handgun, shotgun and rifle chamberings. Some I know the history of, some I don't. I'd list them, but I'm not interested enough to bother.

I will say that if there is a less useful discriminant for selecting a firearm caliber than the country of its origin, I can't imagine what it would be.

Mike Irwin
September 17, 2005, 10:21 PM
"The .30-06 is also an American round, as the RIFLE was based on the Mauser, not the caliber."

Well, the caliber perhaps not, but the case?

Yes.

Mauser developed a whole series of cartridges with a case head diameter of roughly .470-.473.

The .30-06 has a standard case head diameter of .473.


"9mm Kurtz"

No such thing. It's 9mm Kurz. There's no 'T'.

IanS
September 18, 2005, 04:52 AM
Its too bad your prejudice gets in the way of enjoying the many great guns for this cartridge.

SIG P210
SIG Sauer P226
Glock 17/19/26
H&K P7/M8
S&W 952PC
Browning High Power

Webleymkv
September 18, 2005, 09:34 AM
Well, not exactly. The army switched to a .45 caliber round as a result of the Moro problems, but that was the .45LC, not the .45ACP. When the army decided to hold new pistol trials some years later, they specified something that approximated the performance of the .45LC. I guess you can trace the requirement for a .45 pistol cartridge back to the Moro problems, but it's not as direct a path as some think.

I said that, in the next sentence I said:

It duplicated the ballistics of the .45 Long Colt then in use in the 1873 Single Action Army and 1909 New Service revolvers but in a semiautomatic pistol.

res1b3uq
September 18, 2005, 03:10 PM
I finally found a lightweight .45 I enjoy carrying, and since i have my series 80 for the range, I seldom shoot my highpowers any more.

IM_Lugger
September 18, 2005, 06:34 PM
So you also won’t ever own a Sig, CZ, Beretta, HK, Glock, Taurus, Bersa, Makarov ete etc just becaus they're not american :rolleyes:


I personally prefer European guns to American...

tsavo
September 18, 2005, 06:45 PM
I agree. It's sad but there aren't many things produced in America that don't have foreign superiors.

DanV1317
September 18, 2005, 07:39 PM
If you saw what a 9mm corbon DPX bullet did in gel you wouldn't be so opposed to the round.

tshadow6
September 18, 2005, 07:49 PM
Go shoot a Browning Hi Power in 9mm. After you do, you will eat rice and beans while you save up the money to buy one. (no offense intended)

JohnKSa
September 18, 2005, 09:24 PM
webley,

That's still dramatically overstating the case (although you're certainly not the first to do so).

JMB designed the .45ACP to meet the military specs. The specs weren't generated as a result of the Moro rebellion, they were designed to duplicate the .45LC. The .45LC was designed long before the Moros became an issue. Therefore, no one designed a handgun cartridge to deal with the Moros.

The reason the military decided to duplicate the .45LC was because it was the current issue cartridge and the REASON it was the current issue cartridge can be traced back to the Moro problem.

So, it is correct to say that there is a connection between the .45ACP and the Moro rebellion, but the connection is not anywhere near as straightforward as JMB (or anyone else) designing a cartridge because of the Moros.

Webleymkv
September 18, 2005, 09:31 PM
JohnK, OK, so I wasn't quite clear enough. At least I actually knew that a 1909 revolver chambered in .45 Colt even existed. Sure, the .45 ACP was an inderect result of the incidents with the Moros but I didn't want to ramble so I gave the short version. I expected those of us who know the whole story to just bask in how much smarter we are than the newbies (or how much more time we have on our hands depending on how you look at it :p ). Basically, I was trying to cut to the chase without an even longer dissertation (that post was getting kinda lengthy already).

jonathon
September 18, 2005, 09:37 PM
I think IM_Lugger make's a good point...

Foriegn guns in general have taken over our firearms market, and is because they produce high quality arms without gimics or frills.

I also think the American Firearms industry in general(not all of them, but a majority it seems) seem to be more interested in covering their asses and making sure the gun is "law suit proof" rather than producing a firearm based around what a shooter wants and desires.

aspen1964
September 18, 2005, 10:58 PM
..honestly...when I walk into a good gun store, I will look at the NEW gun counter for a couple of minutes and then head to the used gun rack-case to stare for a long while... :p

Dave T
September 19, 2005, 01:55 PM
I probably shouldn't do this, particularly on a 9mm thread, but I just have to (LOL). The 45 ACP was not designed to duplicate the performance of the 45 Colt. That cartridge, in its black powder loading of 40g FFg drove a 255g soft lead bullet at 910 FPS from a 7.5" barrel. The military's load, the 45 S&W (Schofield), used 28g of FFFg to propel a 230g lead bullet at 730 fps.

JMB originally wanted a 200g bullet at 900 fps. The Ordinance Dept. specified they wanted a 230g bullet and at the pressure Browning wanted/designed the gun for, the performance came out in the 800-850 range (the last mil-spec I read said 830 +-15 fps).

Dave

cuate
September 19, 2005, 02:53 PM
C'mon folks, 9mm is cheap and reliable, carry an old wartime P-38 in the pickup, full of 9s and an extra magazine. I feel well protected. I also have a Glock 22 in .40 cal. I do not shoot much because of the cost of ammo but which I dearly love to shoot. And Have a tricked up at the factory Dan Wesson Patriot in .45 which I also carry sometimes and which is my true love! Ammo costs of course puts some limits on this old man but I love them all! Hell, someplace I have a 1910 Mauser in .32 auto that I have been known to stick in my boot if going into "bad"
territory. This one I don't favor for self defense. So get off your high horses and shoot what you like and enjoy.

Webleymkv
September 19, 2005, 03:54 PM
I probably shouldn't do this, particularly on a 9mm thread, but I just have to (LOL). The 45 ACP was not designed to duplicate the performance of the 45 Colt. That cartridge, in its black powder loading of 40g FFg drove a 255g soft lead bullet at 910 FPS from a 7.5" barrel. The military's load, the 45 S&W (Schofield), used 28g of FFFg to propel a 230g lead bullet at 730 fps.

The smokeless powder loads used in the 1909 New Service revolvers traveled at sub 800fps velocities. The round was downloaded because it was feared that it would be used in an old blackpowder SAA still floating around in inventory. Even if we consider the older, more powerful load, the .45 ACP still delivers ballistics that are very similar to it so as far as duplication goes it was, ironically "close enough for government work."

cje1980
September 19, 2005, 07:22 PM
I'm quickly trying to figure out what the point of this thread is. The 9mm is an excellent round and has a history very similar to the .45ACP. Both were used in both WWI and II. The 9mm has been used in more wars and by more militaries. It is the world's universally accepted self defense pistol cartridge. If I could only have one semi-auto it would definitely be in 9mm as it's an effective cartridge, very cheap to practice with and has a flat trajectory for long range shooting. I like to shoot at 50+yds just for the heck of it once in awhile and the 9mm doesn't really drop at that range and is much flatter than .45. Just an observation, I've noticed that people who own 9mm pistols actually shoot them, while most of my buddies who own .45s brag about how big their guns are but never actually practice with them or very little. Heck, I can even find 50rds of Winchester JHPs for less than a box of .45 Ball.

Webleymkv
September 20, 2005, 11:02 AM
I'm quickly trying to figure out what the point of this thread is.

It started out as trying to figure out why aspen doesn't like the 9mm. But myself, JohnK, and cuate kinda hijacked it. :p