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View Full Version : My rifle melted!!!


Mario220
April 10, 2005, 03:30 AM
I have a Winchester Model 70 "black shadow" in 7mm Rem Mag. I fired 30 factory rounds in a 40 min period and my barrel melted the stock.

Has anybody here ever have this happen to or ever hear of this happen?

I will be sending this rifle back to Winchester and hope they fix it free of charge.

MTMilitiaman
April 10, 2005, 03:37 AM
I have a Remington BDL in 7mm Remington and I know that firing 20 rounds in a 1 hour period is about all that can be accomplished if you intend to keep the barrel even lukewarm. At the rate you were firing, that is about 1 round every minute. From a sporter weight barrel in a magnum, the barrel is going to get very hot at this rate if you keep it up for more than a few minutes (rounds). This isn't going to be good for the barrel or the rifle in general and I wouldn't be surprised to see a factory synthetic stock begin to melt when subjected to that treatment. I further doubt that Winchester is going to see a practical need to sustain that kind of fire rate given the intended use of the rifle and thus will be very hesitant to fix or replace it.

Al Thompson
April 10, 2005, 12:03 PM
Cheaper to get a new stock, when you figure the postage, time, etc. What they may (:rolleyes: ) do is send you a new junk stock for your old melted junk stock. You'll still have the same problem - a junk stock.

I have two M70s - quite happy with them - but I replaced the stocks ASAP.

www.boydsgunstocks.com

Raymond Losli
April 10, 2005, 02:27 PM
Interesting way to break in a new rifle barrel...... :D
.

Jseime
April 10, 2005, 02:38 PM
if i were to fire 30 rounds of 7mm mag in 40 minutes my shoulder would melt let alone the rifle. id get a different stock and ease off on the shooting.

Redstick
April 10, 2005, 03:03 PM
Well now, I don't think that there Winchester is much for quality and I wanted to warn you beforehand, be sure not to use it to dig around the campfire to get any coals out fer cookin', 'cause it prob'ly couldn't even handle that either!!! Where's the "quality control" gone?!?!?!?!!!
ANOTHER DISSATISFIED WINCHESTER CUSTOMER,
Redstick :mad:

bill k
April 10, 2005, 03:20 PM
I have several magnums in various calibers. After 4 or five rounds they get very, very warm. I shot ten only once in about a thirty minute period. The barrel was so hot you could bar-b-que a steak on it.
Try grabing the barrel every three or four rounds you'll see it gets very hot quickley. I've never melted a stock but I'm sure thirty rounds in less than an hour would.
Bill

Death from Afar
April 10, 2005, 03:22 PM
I think this is quite shoddy to be honest. i apprecaite that not many customers will fire that many rounds in an hour from that caliber, but it is certainly not totally out of the ball park. Here in New Zealand, one of my favorite pastimes is goat shooting. We will shoot about 120 in a day if you have a good spot, and it is not unusual to fire a great deal of ammo in afaternoon. For long shots ( and this is done in the alps) i use my .300 magnum, and would easily fire 40 shots in an hour.

Magnum88C
April 10, 2005, 03:34 PM
You're kidding me!
Those stocks won't handle a 1 shot in 1 min 20 seconds?

And I thought them guys with their sporters at the range shot so slow just because they couldn't shoot. . .dang!

Raymond Losli
April 10, 2005, 09:51 PM
Death from afar...
" Here in New Zealand, one of my favorite pastimes is goat shooting. We will shoot about 120 in a day if you have a good spot."
.....................................

120 Goats a day.
You must have one hell of a Bar-BQ @ the end of the day.
.
.

cntryboy1289
April 10, 2005, 10:32 PM
I shoot a good bit with my Ruger 7 mag and I have many times shot a box of 50 reloads in an hours time. We're not dealing with full auto here where you can melt a barrel down in short order. His situation should not have melted the stock unless it wasn't bedded properly to begin with. I am not familiar with the stock he has, but I make sure most of my barrels are free floated to begin with and this seems to aleviate a lot of problems, not just this one. I would definitely contact Winchester and give them a chance to make this one right. It could possibility be epoxy bedded even though some of the stock melted to make it right. I would also say this, if your barrel gets so hot, slow down and give it a chance to cool. I fire all of my rounds in a single shot mode where I have to remove the empty and then load a round from the box beside me and then close the bolt. This may sound silly to some, but it does slow down the shooting enough to let the barrel stay a little cooler. I also like to run a bore snake through after 30 or so rounds with some ballistol on it to help cool the barrel as well. This isn't a farfetched shooting situation. I would imagine that the men that shot the '03 Springfield shot a lot faster than this during battle.

Handy
April 11, 2005, 12:12 AM
I realize we're talking about a magnum, but 1 round every 80 seconds is slow compared to any .308 military style rifle. I've fire 30 rounds in about 2 minutes on many occasions.

This is just bizzare. Winchester had better come up with a solution that doesn't involve any out of pocket expense.

Mario220
April 11, 2005, 01:59 AM
I took a 10 min break after the first 15 rounds. I have fired this rifle like that before and have never had this problem. the rifle has about 800 rounds through it since i bought it 3 years ago.

after being in the Army for five years i figured a 10 min rest after the first 15 rounds was pretty damm slow :D

well i guess i do need to shoot 5 and rest 15.

cntryboy1289
April 11, 2005, 12:33 PM
I would think the warranty would be out for the rifle by now. Where exactly did the stock melt at? Like I mentioned in my previous post, you most likely could epoxy bed the rifle and solve the problem. If the rifle is already bedded, you could still use the epoxy to fix the melted area. I use the gel from Brownells with the black dye when bedding a rifle to a black stock. Give it a try.

I still think the rifle should not have done this to you. I would call the folks at USRAC and give them the oppurtunity to tell you they won't cover it before giving up on the stock. Tell them what happened and what loads you were using. Always give them the truth when talking to them so they will be able to give as accurate of an answer to you as they can. They most likely will be glad to hear about the situation even if they cannot solve the problem for you.

Gives us a pic of the stock if you can. I would like to see what melted myself. Good luck with it.

XDoctor
April 11, 2005, 12:48 PM
Heh, I have an el cheapo Romanian AK-47 variant. One day after bump firing through two 75 round drums without a break the lower foregrip caught on fire. After a lot of screaming, laughing and some creative beer dousing we got the fire put out. Weapon seems fine, still shoots reliably. 10000 rounds through it now and only one jam.


Almost forgot, after the fire the wood was pretty much destroyed so I sanded it down and painted it hot pink. Then I plastered it with Million Mom March stickers. I should take some glamour shots for you all.

Death from Afar
April 11, 2005, 03:02 PM
"120 Goats a day.
You must have one hell of a Bar-BQ @ the end of the day."

He, he, yeah its pretty good fun. Everyone with SIG AMTs', AR 15's and Mini 14's , goats everywhere, total chaos, great fun.

jonathon
April 11, 2005, 03:10 PM
Almost forgot, after the fire the wood was pretty much destroyed so I sanded it down and painted it hot pink. Then I plastered it with Million Mom March stickers. I should take some glamour shots for you all.

Yes, you should :D

Lycanthrope
April 11, 2005, 04:24 PM
Sounds like a good time to free float...........

Death from Afar
April 11, 2005, 05:12 PM
Sounds like a good time to get a Steyr ;)

k_dawg
April 11, 2005, 06:10 PM
while I understand the 7mm magnum is a bit more powerful, I can fire my 7mm mauser and Panther .308 all day without a problem.

Comparing the same Remington Ballistics, it is 3133ft-lbs versus 2648 versus 2199.

When I want to have fun, I'll rapid fire my Panther, and go thru two 20round clips in under a minute or two without any problems. Of course, I'm using a bipod with my aimpoint..

My Saiga 7.62 I'll shoot even faster without any problems!

Redstick
September 28, 2005, 08:32 AM
So what'd Winchester have to say and did they make it right???

Harley Quinn
September 28, 2005, 08:48 AM
It was Hilarious. :D

After reading the other posts on the problems in NO and other stuff.

I just laughed so hard I thought I was going to lose control over (gettin old and things don't work as good as they used to) my bladder :eek: .

I am surprised that anyone would need to shoot that many 7mm. That is not one of the fun guns to shoot, unless you have someone next to you, :D you want to leave the range... Muzzle blast is something else. Trade that dude off I say. Barrels probably gone from one inch groups to two at 100yds...LOL

Thanks again. Heck I am still laughing.
Harley

Olaf
September 28, 2005, 08:55 AM
Not uncommon with cheap, injection-molded stocks.....(especially the ones with no fibre reinforcement). Best to change to a better stock, if continual firing will be commonly part of your shooting routine.

4V50 Gary
September 28, 2005, 09:15 AM
XDoctor said: One day after bump firing through two 75 round drums without a break the lower foregrip caught on fire. After a lot of screaming, laughing and some creative beer dousing we got the fire put out.

Now that's the first legitimate use of alcohol on the range. :D

Regarding the Winchester meltdown, they should be notified. Perhaps the composition of the polymers should be changed.

Capt. Charlie
September 28, 2005, 12:13 PM
Hmm. This brings up a good question at a good time (for me). I'm getting ready to sight in a new scope on my 700 BDL Remy 270 Win. After bore sighting, I plan on shooting 3-shot groups between adjustments and I usually am not satisfied until I can put 3-4 groups in the same spot. So we're talking a bunch of rounds here in a relatively short time. I never did understand the fine points of cold-bore shots (like how many shots in what time frame constitutes a cold-bore shot?), and I don't anticipate my Remy bursting into flames :rolleyes: , but that it will affect accuracy is no question. So, to sight this thing in, how long should I wait between shots (or groups) to get an accurate sight-in?

Harley Quinn
September 28, 2005, 12:44 PM
Hi.
I have always given a few minutes. Lots of variables wind, temperature, etc.. is it a std or bull barrel? By bull I don't mean really bully but heavier than the std. I think if it was me I would fire three shot groups like I was shooting at a running animal or thereabouts. Let it rest and see how you did.

Write it in your book or whatever you do. Put your hand on the barrel and check it for heat. Then go again when it is cool. Cold, I am not so sure, even the sun on a hot day makes it so hot you can't touch it. Hopfully you are under a cover.

That helps you also. :)

Harley

SamD
September 28, 2005, 12:50 PM
There is a reason why proper rifles are made from wood and steel as opposed to 'lunamin and "polymer".:D

Sam

Jaywalker
September 28, 2005, 01:57 PM
SamD, agreed. I've often thought it's a shame that people have been using wood for so long. If they were just discovering it now, it'd be considered high-tech.

It's natually occuring, non-conductive to heat and electricity, stable over a range of temperatures, can be shaped or repaired with common tools, takes a variety of finishes, at at the end, it's biodegradable. Nothing else comes close.

Jaywalker

Olaf
September 28, 2005, 02:21 PM
That, of course varies, Capt Charlie, but, as a general rule, 3-4 mins. between 3-shot groups is good. If you want to be fanatic about it, you could wait 10 or more minutes between groups....or even until the barrel is back down to ambient temperature. That is very unnecessary, however.

As to the Remington synthetic stock, if you have the factory synthetic stock that is, there should be no difficulties. I had until recently, a "knockabout" rifle, built from a Remington 700, in .308, with a 20" barrel...and the standard synthetic stock. I used to shoot 40 -50 rounds through it, in the space of about 45 minutes (3-shot groups, with cool-down in between). I never had any stock problems. The rifle was an ADL, with the barrel pressure points as from the factory...and not glass-bedded. VERY accurate little rifle, it was...and completely trouble-free. The Remington synthetic stock IS fibre reinforced....and I think a lot more heat-tolerant than a non-reinforced stock. In any case, I NEVER had problems.

horseshoe3
September 28, 2005, 03:08 PM
I'll try to remember not to take a magnum hunting. If it's not a one shot kill I'll have to wait at least 5 minutes before taking a follow up shot or the benchrest shooters will jump down my throat for "abusing" my rifle.

joshua
September 28, 2005, 03:15 PM
Sir, a 308 burns less powder than a magnum like a 7mm or 300 mag. I have shot my AR-15 to a very hot level the oil touching the barrel and gas tube was smoking. I've had the AR gas tube so hot that you can light a cigarette with it. Didn't take long either - a couple fast taps with two 30 round mag full and she was smoking. I've never heard of a stock melting but hey, if it's plastic.... :D josh

Lycanthrope
September 28, 2005, 03:19 PM
I like to get the barrel down to around ambient temperature. I've used wet rags or compressed air to help the process.

cracked butt
September 28, 2005, 03:21 PM
Remchester Crap.

The big gun manufacturers hoodwinked the public by selling plastic stocks. They sell them on the notion of being 'all weather' stocks or on the notion that synthetic stocks won't have a wandering zero like walnut stocks could have. The bait and switch is part is that the synthetic stocks that are worth having for their qualities are made of fiberglass and carbon fiber, not the flimsy injection molded garbage they put on their rifles. They have to be laughing all the way to the bank when they can sell rifles with a $4 injection molded stock for the same price as a rifle that has a walnut stock that costs 10X as much to make.
:mad:

TPAW
September 28, 2005, 03:23 PM
Something is wrong somewhere? I've put 300 rounds through my Arsenal AK with a plastic stock within an hour, and although it got real hot, no melting problem.

Capt. Charlie
September 28, 2005, 03:58 PM
Thanks guys! I'll try the 3-4 min. wait between groups. Just the right amount of time for a sip of coffee and a smoke :D .

Lycanthrope,

I like to get the barrel down to around ambient temperature. I've used wet rags or compressed air to help the process.
Actually, when you do that, the bore temperature will actually increase for a time! I was a Navy Gunner's Mate (5" guns) in the late 60's/early 70's, and early on, the barrels were cooled from the outside with fire hoses on misfires to prevent cook-offs. Many went *BOOM* anyhow :eek: . They did studies and found that the water actually drove the heat inwards and caused cook off much faster. Now they flood the barrel to drive the heat outwards.

Zak Smith
September 28, 2005, 04:00 PM
I've fired that many 50BMG rounds in the same time, or less....

Harley Quinn
September 28, 2005, 04:01 PM
Hi,
I was in doing a transfer in the local gunshop, I noticed a few Howa's on
the shelf and asked him about the syn. stocks and them melting. He just laughed and said I dont think so.

I told him about this thread and he laughed again. Looked at me like I was nuts, :eek: and then we went onto a different subject.

So I am not so sure we are being played with here. Have we heard from the original poster? Been awhile.

CC good idea. I am sure it works makes sense. The only thing is I thought heat goes to cold (thermodynamics). Hey, you can always pee on it. :D last resort guys, Sorry, the devil made me do it.LOL

Harley

Picher
September 28, 2005, 05:41 PM
As somebody else said, if you can't keep your hand on the rear third of barrel, stop shooting until it's pretty cool. Check it after every three shots.

It's not just the stock that's melting, the barrel is getting shot out prematurely.

Picher

Lycanthrope
September 28, 2005, 07:01 PM
Actually, when you do that, the bore temperature will actually increase for a time! I was a Navy Gunner's Mate (5" guns) in the late 60's/early 70's, and early on, the barrels were cooled from the outside with fire hoses on misfires to prevent cook-offs. Many went *BOOM* anyhow . They did studies and found that the water actually drove the heat inwards and caused cook off much faster. Now they flood the barrel to drive the heat outwards.

That's pretty interesting. I'm not sure how water can drive heat through metal or insulate if it's cooler than ambient, but I'll do my research. I wonder if I could measure this effect from the outside when I send cool air through the bore center?

Zekewolf
September 28, 2005, 07:53 PM
Hate to debate with an internet anecdote, but water would absorb heat from the outside, drawing heat towards the outside, not forcing it to the inside. Of that, I'm positive.

Lycanthrope
September 28, 2005, 08:40 PM
That's my understanding of thermal dynamics as well. Maybe other factors were at play.

Jamie Young
September 28, 2005, 09:24 PM
Just got a silver plated stock.

TPAW
September 28, 2005, 09:26 PM
If you think about the old cannon ball days, didn't they swab the inside of the barrell with water to cool it down?

Capt. Charlie
September 28, 2005, 09:32 PM
Hate to debate with an internet anecdote, but water would absorb heat from the outside, drawing heat towards the outside, not forcing it to the inside. Of that, I'm positive.
Hey, I would think the same thing! But the Navy did reduce cook-offs by doing it.... somehow. But then, there's the right way of doing things, the wrong way, and then there's the Navy way :rolleyes: :D .

Where's all them old artillery guys when you need 'em? :D

Limeyfellow
September 28, 2005, 09:36 PM
<i>If you think about the old cannon ball days, didn't they swab the inside of the barrell with water to cool it down?</i>

That was to kill embers down the barrel, otherwise it was a tad dangerous to stuff gunpowder down there and it would ignite.

TPAW
September 28, 2005, 11:36 PM
Oh, that's right. Now I remember. :o

Redstick
October 14, 2007, 01:23 AM
Well, it MUST be time to dig this up again, 'cause I STILL AIN'T HEARD WHAT HAPPENED!!!!!! Guess it's too late to send it back to Winchester now though. I thought of this when I was contemplating whether to keep my CZ 550 or the Winchester Model 70... The CZ ain't had no meltdown yet! :D

Dannyboy303
October 14, 2007, 06:00 AM
what part of the stock melted? im guessing at the bedding for the chamber?