PDA

View Full Version : Rifles Chambered For Revolver Cartridges...


Jelly
April 9, 2005, 01:51 AM
I'm interested in learning more about this combination and how they actually perform in relation to traditional rifle cartridges...

Feel free to expound.

novus collectus
April 9, 2005, 02:01 AM
I don't know much but I always wanted a lever action in .45 colt (definitely not "long" colt).

utaherrn
April 9, 2005, 04:12 AM
great fun, makes water-filled milk jugs jump like crazy out to 100 yards. The velocity is several hundred FPS faster out of a 20" bbl over a 6" revolver. No where near the power of a .30-30, but that's not its intended role.

I also have a Colt AR-15 in 9mm. Great gun for knocking down steel plates, rapid fire kind of fun. Dot sight, surefire flashlight, hollow points, great for HD duty.

I have always liked pistol caliber rifles. Versatility, mild recoil, good training for teaching the kids to shoot full power rifle cartridges. And they're fun.

DAVID NANCARROW
April 9, 2005, 06:53 AM
As for sheer power, a pistol cartridge is not going to hit as hard as a rifle cartridge. A 30-30 hits about as hard at 100 yards as a 44 magnum does at the muzzle. Thats not to say its a bad thing at all.

A friend of mine bought a Winchester 92 in 45 Colt a while back, and we had a ball with that rifle. Light, held plenty of ammo in that tube mag and you could almost swing it as fast as a broom stick. He sold the thing before I could even make him an offer for it :(

I wouldn't feel undergunned with a pistol caliber rifle/carbine in the field for shots at 100 yards or thereabouts. I think a 357 in a pistol is kind of light for deer across a football field, but there are those shooters who do quite well with them. I think a 357 in a rifle would be fine at the same distance, and a 44 magnum/45 Colt would be even better.

Long Path
April 9, 2005, 08:15 AM
I would like to see one of the Pumas (or is it Timberwolf) in .454 Casull, to see if they reliably function with .45 Colt as well. .454 is pretty close to .45-70 performance, out of a shorter cartridge. Get a nice Freedom Arms revolver to go along with it, and you're set.

novus collectus
April 9, 2005, 10:51 AM
I would like to see one of the Pumas (or is it Timberwolf) in .454 Casull, to see if they reliably function with .45 Colt as well. .454 is pretty close to .45-70 performance, out of a shorter cartridge. Get a nice Freedom Arms revolver to go along with it, and you're set.
My mouth is watering :) Don't know what a Puma is and I've only seen picture of the Freedom Arms but if the Puma is a lever action, then that sounds like the dream combination.

Jbar4Ranch
April 9, 2005, 11:02 AM
I don't know much but I always wanted a lever action in .45 colt (definitely not "long" colt).

I think you're out of luck. I don't know of anyone who is currently making one dedicated solely to .45 Short Colt/.45 Schofield.

I have a Rossi/Puma M92 in .45 LC, a Uberti 1866 Yellow Boy in .45 LC, and a Browning M92 in .357 that I use for CAS. The .45's would also be suited for deer size game out to a hundred yards or so.

gak
April 9, 2005, 11:17 AM
I have an EMF 92 (fancy Rossi/Win 92 repro) in .44 Mag/.44 Sp and it's great. 20" saddle ring carbine, as close to the original article as you can get (unless you got it in the .44-40, a true original caliber). No problems whatsoever, as someone else stated light, fast. In this caliber very good punch for a home defense or camp gun or short range brush country hunting.

I have also owned various Rossi-brand 92s in .357 and .44-40, both calibers great fun to shoot - esp the latter where there is (seems like) an eternity before the round hits the target, something endearing about something old and not so fast! You can actually hear the bang____thwap! Still definitely no .22 or .38 and very accurate for open sights and "within its range" - 100 yarder appx point of aim/not too shabby, and despite it's (comparatively) low speed in getting there wouldn't want to be on the receiving end :) - Great fun.

But I digress, the .44 Mag variant a different story (speed and punch) but still light recoil (comparatively - such as much less vs 30-30, etc.-as you'd expect) and quick handling, 10 rd capacity. Can't be beat--can't imagine a better combo than the .44 mag mated with similar SA (or DA) revolver in that, as I have, and/or .44 Sp. EMFs (and Navy Arms but more limited in caliber and finish) are a little more nicely finished Rossi, have the period-correct saddle ring (or not...your choice I think, but I prefer - just tie a latigo strip to keep from clacking and wearing off receiver blue if it's a concern), and don't have the goofy safety the LSI (also Rossi) versions have.

Get one of these EMFs or Navy Arms (or now, but more pricey Italian-made Armi Sport 92s through Taylor's) -- you won't regret it. Perfect truck, trail and camp gun. .357, .44-40, .45LC, .44 Mag (EMF only), and aforementioned .454 Casul (and maybe the .480 Ruger now?) --these latter two via LSI only, I think. Armi Sport adds even more calibers such as .32-20 and even (unique to Armi/Taylor's other than the Marlin) the slick .32 H&R Mag, and maybe a few others. For all around duty, I'd get one in .44 Mag or .45 Colt (or .357 also for versatility depending on your use) in blue or stainless and never look back! Good luck!

novus collectus
April 9, 2005, 11:22 AM
I don't know much but I always wanted a lever action in .45 colt (definitely not "long" colt).
Sorry, pet peeve of mine. Where on any box of ammo (or in "Cartridges of the World") do you see the word "long" on a box of .45 colt???

Tom Matiska
April 9, 2005, 11:40 AM
44 Mag out of a 20" barrel is the most polite rifle I own. Won't scare the milk out of the cows or tick off the farmer like a "real" rifle can.

Usable energy and trajectory against stationary targets out to 125+ yards, but against fast movers depends on your skill level. If you want to hit a fast mover you need to think more like a shotgun than a rifle and pull an extra foot or two of lead.

Jbar4Ranch
April 9, 2005, 12:12 PM
Sorry, pet peeve of mine. Where on any box of ammo (or in "Cartridges of the World") do you see the word "long" on a box of .45 colt???

Oh... you were referring to the Long Colt vs. Short Colt argument, not a rifle chambered as such. :o

Nowdays, you don't see boxes labeled .45 Short Colt, but .45 Long Colt labels come along now and then from small manufacturers or commercial reloaders. The .45 Schofield cartridge came into existence a couple years after the .45 Colt cartridge, and manufacturers didn't have cases of the proper length or headstamp, so they simply cut down existing supplies of .45 Colt cases to load the new round and get it on the market until correctly headstamped cases could be acquired. Labeling boxes ".45 Schofield" was confusing to consumers who opened the box and saw cartridges headstamped ".45 Colt", so many early boxes were labeled ".45 Short Colt" instead. Mike Venturino has at least one such box in his collection. To differentiate between the "long" version and the "short" version, some were also marked ".45 Long Colt". It really got confusing when manufacturers aquired the properly headstamped Schofield cases, and boxes labeled ".45 Short Colt" had cartridges headstamped ".45 Schofield" and vice versa. Even MORE confusing is the fact that both rounds were also adopted for simultaneous use by the military and both rounds were interchangeably called ".45 Government". Examples of both rounds can be found today headstamped ".45 Govt.". It took a generation or more for the ".45 Long Colt" nomenclature to be more or less dropped from people's vocabulary, but many still use it today anyway. It's not necessarily incorrect, but rather an antiquated reference, since the .45 Schofield/.45 Colt/.45 Long Colt/.45 Short Colt/.45 Govt fiasco has been standardized (Or gone) for well over a hundred years now. Original, vintage .45 Schofield rounds headstamped ".45 Colt" aren't particularly rare among collectors today.

BillCA
April 9, 2005, 12:26 PM
How about this combination?

http://dragon.hematite.com/M57M1894.jpg

Marlin 1894FG and S&W Model 57 - both in .41 Magnum.
210gr JSP kick like a mule from the S&W and are pleasant out of the rifle.

novus collectus
April 9, 2005, 12:36 PM
Learn something new everyday. Thank you Jbar4Ranch. :)

Jbar4Ranch
April 9, 2005, 12:40 PM
The .45 Schofield/.45 Colt/.45 Long Colt/.45 Short Colt/.45 Govt argument has been more or less dead for a hundred years, until the recent Cowboy Action Shooting boom, and now it's back again, lol.

Gewehr98
April 9, 2005, 06:50 PM
So, once I get my Magnum Research BFR in .45-70, I'll have rifles chambered for revolver cartridges. ;)

Jbar4Ranch
April 9, 2005, 07:08 PM
OFF TOPIC! But what the hell. :D I just picked up a 10" .45-70 BFR a week ago myself. And a M25 .45 acp. :) I chrono'd a load out of the .45-70 consisting of a cast 405 grain bullet and 26 grains of Alliant 2400 @ just exactly 1400 fps. All five go into one ragged hole at 25 yards measuring about an inch or so across, and recoil is on par with, or a little less even, than a 240 grain .44 mag load out of a Super Blackhawk or M29. Fun gun! Makes a good playmate for my two .500 X-frames, .475 Linebaugh, and .480 SRH. :)
http://www.picyard.com/main/data/500/70BFRnM25_008-med.jpg

BillCA, I LOVE that .41 mag setup, especially the Marlin!

115grfmj
April 9, 2005, 08:25 PM
In my S&W 686 4" : magtech 158gr sjsp about 1294fps =587fpe
Out of my 18.5 " marlin 1894c same load starts at 1800 fps= 1137fpe

further more it doesnt drop down to the muzzle energy of my 686 until
that round has traveled 150yds at 585fpe

and that just a warm load.

gak
April 9, 2005, 09:02 PM
Novus, even Colt refers to their SAA as .45 Long Colt or LC. Maybe that's just to satisfy the nostalgic CAS crowd or themselves (harkening back to yesteryear and not what's happened since), but to me it does not add to the confusion, it eliminates it. But maybe that's just me. I have often heard people say, again erroneously perhaps but..., "It's a .45 Colt" when referring to their .45 ACP. LC takes away any doubt what they're talking about.
http://www.colt.com/CMCI/saarmy45LC.asp

Springer45
April 9, 2005, 11:37 PM
Sorry, pet peeve of mine. Where on any box of ammo (or in "Cartridges of the World") do you see the word "long" on a box of .45 colt???
I agree with gak; it removes all doubt. My pet peeve is when people correct other people for using the "Long Colt" nomenclature.

novus collectus
April 9, 2005, 11:41 PM
I agree with gak; it removes all doubt. My pet peeve is when people correct other people for using the "Long Colt" nomenclature.

It is no longer my pet peeve since Jbar4Ranch straightened me out. And I will never correct someone again. :o

Sir William
April 10, 2005, 02:18 AM
A fellow CAS shooter has a set up in 38-40. It is a great combination. I had a similar set up in 44-40. The bottlenecked cartridges feed smoother and seal better in LA rifles. I tried 45 LC Winchesters and 357 Magnum but, they both spit gases enough to distract. I have run some rounds through a friends 32-20 Winchester and it is a pleasant rifle to shoot. My own experience though is a LA rifle is best as a utility rifle in 30-30. If you decide you want a rifle/revolver combo, go bottlenecked. 32-20, 38-40 or 44-40. The ONLY smooth, reliable and durable LA rifle in 357 Magnum is the Browning BL-92 in my experience.

Jelly
April 10, 2005, 02:42 AM
If you decide you want a rifle/revolver combo, go bottlenecked.

Excuse my "newbieness", but what do you mean by "bottlenecked"?

spit gases enough to distract.

Same here...

Thanks.

solothurn
April 10, 2005, 04:15 AM
He is refering to the fact that the case looks like a bottle like a 30-06 as opposed to the straight case appearing on the .357 pistol rd.

gak
April 10, 2005, 09:14 AM
Sir William, you make a good point. While I have not had feeding problems except very occasionally with my .44 Mag EMF/Rossi (or not too much with previous .357, though it did not like some .38s), the slick--and again particularly fun--one was an older Rossi .44-40 with just about zero feeding problems. Don't care as much for the thinner case and lesser reloadability factor (I am not a reloader--but what I've read and those I've spoken/dealt with), but sure enjoyed shooting the round and its "originality" as well. I'd really like another one "just because," (Lucas McCain be proud :)) but right now just a little too redundant and not quite as versatile vs the .44M. which is a keeper.

It is also interesting to note that Winchester never chose to chamber the 73 or 92 in .45LC, which otherwise you would have thought would have been a "done deal" --considering they knew there must be a zillion folks out there who'd love to combo it with their .45 Colt SAAs. Now that might have also been politics, but I suspect the inherently "better" feeding characteristics of the bottle-necked design of the .44-40 played a major part in that 60+ year decision.

Jbar4Ranch
April 10, 2005, 09:22 AM
The ONLY smooth, reliable and durable LA rifle in 357 Magnum is the Browning BL-92 in my experience.
Mine has been 100% reliable with .357's, but .38's won't feed unless the bullet is seated out to simulate the OAL of a .357 round.

Person of Interest
April 10, 2005, 09:37 AM
Some dismiss the usefullness of a carbine in pistol caliber (Jeff Cooper says why carry a rifle that hits no harder than a pistol?) but there are some advantages.

Many people shoot a rifle better but don't want the heavy recoil and blast of a rifle cartridge. Sometimes a pistol-carbine is enough gun. Cooper suggested a 16" lever gun in .30-30 for use where handguns are prohibited but I would suggest the same gun in .357 or .44 as being a better choice. The .30 caliber rifle is too much for urban use and the pistol-carbine holds more ammo in the magazine.

I have a couple rifles in pistol caliber. A Rossi M92 clone in .45 Colt, a Winchester M94 Trapper in .44 Magnum, and a Spanish "Destroyer" carbine that I converted to .38 Super. Some folks on a military rifle forum took me to task for modifying this gun but I did this back when they were plentiful and cheap. Apparently in the past 25 years these became collectable. Sorry.

I have chronographed the .44 M94 using 240 bullets over 22 grains of 2400 and got 1980 FPS.

On the Long Colt matter, I am old enough to recall factory ammo boxes marked ".45 Long Colt." As most know, during the 1870s-1880s the U.S. Army had two revolvers in .45 caliber. The Colt SAA and the Schofield, which had a shorter cylinder and used a slightly shorter round. The Long and Short designations on the ammo were adopted to differ between the two. As someone else said, now that the Schofield clones are becomming popular with SASS shooters, the terminology is returning.

claude783
April 10, 2005, 10:10 AM
I have the Rossi Puma 92 in 357. Have put a lot of 38's and 357's through it without any problems.

When I purchased it, the gun store wanted to know if I wanted the "new" in the box gun, but personally, I figured the "demo" had probably been cycled in the shop several thousand times. This "tuned" the action and trigger..

The wife has had a couple of "bumps" in the night and this is her "gremlin" control gun. I keep a Tarus Mod.66 with 3" barrel for my Gremlin control, so there is no problem if either one of us should have an ammo problem..keep 4 speed loaders ready...the little rifle has "no" recoil, is fast handling, and carries 10 rounds (keep 8 in the rifle as it is loaded 24/7).

The 357 rifle makes for a very nice defense gun. In an area where deer hunting (brush country) I think this would be an almost ideal little game getter. I would limit the range 50-75 yards, but in brush, that is pretty much your hunting distance anyway!

I should also mention that the rifle is in Stainless Steel, so it can sit in the closet without any maintaince for years on end...has sat there for years on end!

I keep the home defense guns loaded with Blazer 158. gr. jhp's.