M-14 bullpup; FBI project??

[Rocky Road]

Need some information--

An old friend just called and asked if I have ever heard of a special project firearm from some years back— This is said to be a US M-14 rifle in a short-barrel, bull pup configuration. It is claimed that a few hundred of these were built on special order for the FBI, which agency then felt the need for a powerful, selective fire weapon, easy to handle in helicopters and other vehicles. Manufacturer was Springfield Armory--the original government plant, not the current commercial concern.

I've never heard of such a project. I picture in my mind something akin to the British Service rifle, EM-1 or EM-2. (I know, there is a later designation for this rifle, but my *Small Arms of the World* dates from before the official adoption.) That is the only bull pup in 7.62 x 51 mm (.308 Win.) Of which I am aware. I understand there are some commercial conversion kits of the AK- 47 available.

This item is offered for sale and is said to be fully papered, legal and transferable. My friend has not seen the gun or the papers but can do so soon.

I need to know if anyone here has ever heard of such a thing. What was it called? How many were built? What would it be worth? (Always stipulating that it is worth exactly zero if NOT legal.)

A prompt reply will be appreciated. I don't want my friend to jump into something that may simply be a cobbled-up basement workshop gun. On the other hand, if it is a righteous government project rarity, it might be worth big bucks.

This is the only full auto site of which I am aware. Can anyone here refer me to any others?

Much obliged.
RR


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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---

[nyeti]

They were made by AWC in Arizona several years ago. They were offered in several configurations (F/A, suppresed, scope mounting options, etc). They had great magazine reviews, but I have never handled one personally. AWC is know for very high quality work. I don't know about any FBI purchase.

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[George Hill]

Could someone PLEASE post a pic of this!

[Gale McMillan]

Bad info out there. I built one proto type for the FBI but no more were ever ordered or made. I licensed Awc to make them and they thought it was a ticket to become rich! They made a total of 4 for their civilian customers and when they failed to pay their bills I refused to sell them any more stocks and it died there. The prices AWC were quoting was 5000 and up. No wonder it didn't fly.

[Correia]

The link for the firearms pic up top, or www.securityarms.com (http://www.securityarms.com) has pictures under AWC.

[Rocky Road]

Nyeti, Gale, and Correia--

Thanks to each of you for the information. It will be valuable to my friend, and adds to my own knowledge.

Gale--About when did this project take place? Was your prototype built on the commercial Springfield Armory gun or on a vintage M-14?

Again, thanks to all--
RR

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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---

[George Hill]

Gale - Could one get one of those bullpup kits from you? Any spare stocks laying around the ol'shop? Maybe up in a attic - behind some boxes? Anywhere?

[Gale McMillan]

RockyRoad: We made them on both full auto M14 and M1As Sorry George but I scraped everything. I will look around and see if one stock is left

[sharpsrifle]

Hi all

There was another M14/M21 bullpup.
It was designed by the Small Arms Systems Laboratory at Rock Island Arsenal.
Between 1968 and 1975, the Lab evaluated several possible sniper rifles, including a bullpup type with a modified gas system.

Check Small Arms of the World 12th Ed. Rev. pg 156.
Another photo is in The Complete Book of U.S. Sniping. pg 278

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Regards, Sharps.

[Bullpupper]

I know this is an old thread, but I stumbled across it during a Google search when someone asked me where my AWC G2 came from.

With all due respect to Gale (whom I have met, but I am sure he wouldn't remember me), there were more than just four made and sold to civilians as far as I know. Maybe Gale meant the select-fire versions?

I have one based on a semi-auto M1A, and it was called the AWC G2A. IIRC, there was also a G1 (or was it the G3? Not to be confused with the H&K G3) that was full auto. As far as I know they all basically had the same stock setup, but just used slightly different actions (LE rifles or LE prototypes had select-fire actions) and barrel lengths.

I am a bullpup collector, and 7.62x51 semi-auto bullpups are not easy to come by, so I jumped at the change to get this one when it went for sale. The owner, a local man, also had another stock which he was going to fill with another M1A action.

Due to the way the barrel and gas action are setup on mine, I believe it was originally manufactured for use with a supressor.

There were two basic configurations for the scope. One used columns on which the rings were mounted, the other used a bridge which also acted as a tensioner for the barrel, similar in principle to the Dan Wesson revolver barrel shroud. Mine is that latter, and it seems to work well, although it is particular about what ammo shoots best (mine seems to be tuned for Federal 168 gr. BTHP Gold Medal Match ammo). When the shooter does his part, my rifle can shoot 0.5 MOA groups - and I am sure that in better hands it would do even better.

Mine is for sale if anyone is interested. I am getting too old to really make use of this very specialized rifle, and I would like to get something in .50 BMG to replace it (this is what I talked to Gale about when I was visiting in Phoenix - some years ago, as I recall, his company made a bullpup stock for a .50 BMG).

A photo is attached.

[reddot223]

how much?

[Bullpupper]

$3K plus shipping/FFL charges if you aren't in Washington state (or maybe an adjoining state - i'd have to check the law, I'm not an FFL holder).

I would consider separating the scope (a really nice Burris 3x12 Signature with Posi-Lock, Daylight/Twilight apertures and Parallax adjustment) from the rifle, but I prefer to sell them together as I would probably want a higher power scope for a .50 BMG rifle.

The barrel is an 18" SS Krieger. The front of the tensioning "nut" on the barrel is maching at an angle (looks to be 45 deg.) which I assume is to support mating with a supressor. The barrel is threaded and currently there is a flash hider attached. Of course the rifle is "pre-ban".

The stock is of course McMillan. It has three McMillan sling attachment points (not studs, inserts), two on either side of the buttstock, one on the left side of the forestock.

The trigger is activated via cable which runs through a channel in the stock to a bellcrank in buttstock which works against the stock strigger. There is also one in the stock at the forward trigger - IMO this is the only real weak point of the design; it looks a little frail at that point, but I've never had a problem with it. It would be very easy and inexpensive to manufacture something more sturdy to replace it. The trigger action is as good as stock.

Except for the operating rod modification (the protruding lever has been moved forward to clear the action cover) the action is very stock - you could almost drop in any M1A or M14 action, although I haven't tried it (the forward portion of the barrel might require some fitting).

I have modified the action cover because like many other bullpup conversions with this kind of cover, brass would get caught between the charging rod and the cover. Removing the front support post stopped that and since the cover is very heavy guage aluminum it is still plenty sturdy.

I had the scope mount slots milled so that there is a slot every 0.5" to pretty closely match STANAG specs, but it would probably be better to completely replace it if you were to be serious about mounting such equipment.

As I recall AWC was selling these rifles for about $2000 if the customer supplied the action. AWC would do all the fitting and modifications. I think the tensioned barrel mod was anoth $500 or so, but it has been about a decade so I don't recall.

I do not have the special wrench adapter for the barrel tensioning, which was supposed to be used with a torque wrench, but it wouldn't be hard to make one. The nut has two flats milled on it - I imagine a crowfoot adapter would work just as well (that's probably what the adapter was).

More pics or info upon request.

[4V50 Gary]

Reading this makes me miss Gale again. :(

[Bullpupper]

I didn't know Gale had left us. Shows how out of touch I am with the firearm community now. I haven't been out shooting in years (I was struggling to survive the dot-com crash, but I'm back in the saddle now).

[Backwoods]

Within the last month I have seen a picture of an Israeli bullpup M14. It was over on AR15.com, on the General Discussion board. One of the many "Women of the IDF pictures" threads, IIRC.

I'm not a paid member or I'd see if I could find it. Only paid members can search the General Disc. board.

Don in Ohio

[max popenker]

is the TCI M89 SR
http://img103.exs.cx/img103/4425/tcim89srwsuppressor9ac.jpg

i had a contact with a man fro TCI/TEI awhile back, and he promised to get back to me with some info... so far he didn't... =(

[max popenker]

..is the Russian OTs-03, a.k.a. SVU-A
http://img19.exs.cx/img19/5022/svuas3qx.jpg
this is 7.62x54R mod of the famous Dragunov SVD rifle (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn18-e.htm), capable of full-auto fire for emergency situations only

[Bullpupper]

Max, the M89 looks similar to the G2, but they must have modified the gas system as it seems completely hidden from view.

[ogree]

bullpupper

The bullpup stock for the 50 bmg that you referred to was not made by McMillan.
It was a stock manufactured by Fiberpro at almost the end of that companies life.
I don't know if you had a chance to handle it but it was a awkward piece.
I never did like the dam thing.
Just an FYI.

[Handy]

Wow, talk about a rifle only a mother could love. :D

But the SVD one has some flair.

[FirstFreedom]

Found this too:

http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0400/443.htm

[HAWKIN]

AWC SYSTEM TECHNOLOGIES MODEL G2-A
Curious readers of the January issue of Precision Shooting may have wondered just what rifle Gale McMillan was so proudly holding in the photo that accompanied M.L. McPherson’s “Left the Range” tribute. The rifle is none other than AWC System Technologies’ M14/M1A bullpup designated the G2 Compact series. Ever trying to make the best even better, Gale worked closely with Lynn McWilliams, owner of AWC Systems Technologies, in the early 90’s to produce one of the sniping worlds most interesting hybrids.Capable of 1 MOA accuracy, the G2 was tested by a number of governmental agencies, both domestic and foreign, seeking to breathe new life into a venerable battle-proven platform, the M14. The G2 series had a number of variations, primarily surrounding barrel weights, scope mounts and AWC’s suppressor capabilities and both semi-auto and full-auto versions were eventually produced. Our cover features the last significant development of this weapon system, the G2A+ created for testing at the Fort Bragg sniper school. Sporting a compact bullpup stock, designed and produced by Gale McMillan’s firm exclusively for AWC System Technologies, this rifle was fit with a heavy stainless Krieger match barrel and Lynn McWilliams’ final scope mount design. The scope mount and scope selection was of paramount importance because the raised nature of the optics, combined with the peculiar “G” load factor produced by the weapon, created a harsh environment for anything but the strongest scopes.

[gray]

Anyone know who has the expertise to tune up, and possibly improve on,
an original AWC M1A G2 bullpup??

BTW: I recall being told that about 100 were made for either the US or
a foreign government, and that less than 8 were made for civilians
(that is the G2 variant).

Thanks
G

[Anarx]

all i can say is wow thats a wonderful peice... i love bullpup designs..

someone mentioned Mr McMillian is no longer with us? it seems like he would be a very intresting man to speak with.. why did he leave *or how*?

agian wonderful work.. i love the fact that its so accureate.. makes me really consider some of these bullpup conversons out there..*at one point i was looking on one for a mini 14 and a 10-22*

[Handy]

Mr. McMillan's soul left his body, leaving it poorly equipped to keep posting on TFL.


Gray, I'm not sure what they were thinking, but the top ejecting M14 would be close to my last choice of action to build a bullpup out of. So an improvement might start with a different rifle.

[Anarx]

thats sad to hear he sounds like he was a great man.

[Bullpupper]

Handy,

The M1A/M14 was probably chosen for several reasons:

1) Since they were trying to market to the US military, the M14 would appeal since the US military knows it well and it would be accepted easier.

2) There is a plethora of knowledge and tech out there geared towards making the M1A/M14 a very precise shooting rifle. The idea was that this would not be a general infantry rifle, but weighing in at 12 pounds it would be a compact sniper rifle for 800 meter shots.

I saw on a firearms forum a thread about a visit to the SHOT show, and several posts were about a stock company which is working on a bullpup adaptation to the FN-FAL. That is something I would really like. IMO the FN-FAL is one of the best all around Battle Rifles.

[gray]

A bit more info on the AWC Bullpup;
I took it to a weapons course many years ago;
I ran about 400 rounds though it, without cleaning.

It ran fine until the last 50 rounds, then it started to jam;
I think that was due to the tight chamber(heavy Krieger barrel)
getting gummed-up.

I could never get it to shoot any better than around 2 moa, but
I should mention, I never used the wrench to adjust the barrel tension
and all the shooting was without the use of a bench or bags; just
me holding it as steady as I could from various positions.
I forget what AWC called the system for adjusting barrel tension.

It also came with a suppressor; very quiet; less noise than a 22 short.
Just a pop and a crack; I was not using subsonic ammo.

I think it was a good try, and definitely unique. It could be used now
in Iraq; everybody is looking for short weapons for carrying in vehicles;
just look at the SAGE folding stock and the SOCOM 16.
Everyone also is looking for weapons with more punch than the 5.56;
those little bullets just break up and cannot penetrate the vehicles
the bad guys are riding in.

The only negative I could find was that it was a bit tail heavy
and the trigger was a bit sloppy; that could be improved upon
I think. It did come to the cheek quickly.

I would not hesitate to take it to a combat zone once a good gunsmith
gave it a going over.

G

[Stiletto]

On the tail-heavy bit, I don't get why nobody hasn't made a thumbhole style grip with the magazine well in the section behind the grip; this would put the magazine closer by an inch or two to the grip, also shortening the length of the trigger mechanism, and move the center of gravity closer to the grip hand. It would also make the shoulder-to-grip distance a bit closer to what people are used to from conventional designs.

[gray]

Not sure why others have not tried to fiddle with the design;
The Israeli's copied AWC's design; in fact, AWC made 100 for them,
then they just copied the design and made their own.

With the suppressor, it is a very compact system, and not tail-heavy
with the suppressor attached.
Apparently, it is technically very challenging to get a gas operated gun
to function properly with and without the suppressor; ie) for both conditions.

The AWC bullpup has a gas valve to adjust the amount of gas going through the port in order that it will cycle with and without the suppressor.

Overall, it's weight is not more than a standard M1A, just that it
is concentrated further back; takes a little getting used to is all.

My goal is to take it to a M14/M1A expert gunsmith, if I can find one,
to have him go over it to see if he can improve on the reliability and
accuracy.
I would consider fluting the Kreiger heavy barrel; that would lighten it up
some and help with cooling a tad, maybe open up the chamber a tiny bit,
or even flute it like on H&K's in order to ease extraction. More important
on the battlefield where you are more likely to run into cases of varying dimentions.

One thing I forgot; the scope is mounted relatively high which makes
the cheek weld a bit higher than normal; that could also affect accuracy
as one would have to relearn the natural cheek weld we all have learned
from shooting most other weapons. Again, something that can be learned.

The main advantage to this weapon system is it's compactness; which
is the reason for the existance for all Bullpups.

g