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rugerdude
October 23, 2004, 09:32 PM
I will be joining the marines after I graduate from HS in 3 1/2 years and I was wondering if there were any rifles that would give me a feel for how to shoot an M-16. I only ask this because an ar-15 would be much too expensive I am open to all actions, hell even single shot.

Thanks in advance,
Rugerdude

Danindetroit
October 23, 2004, 09:57 PM
Do you mean the type of sights they use? Or the fire selector switch, which has things like safe, semi-auto, 3 round burst, full auto. Looking at your post it looks like you want to figure out the sights. I think there is a company that makes a single shot m-16. As for the controls I know people who have been in the military from '85 until now. Some have only done 4 years and they keep changing the controls, mainly taking out the full auto and putting it back. I think for a while now you have semi and 3 round burst. www.dpmsinc.com makes a single shot. the sights are Dual aperture rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation. Elevation adjustable Mil Spec front sight post. I am not sure what it would cost. Might have to search some websites. If you have a gunstore or Hardware store that sells guns or orders them, you might be able to tell them what you need it for and they should cut you a break. Depending on what you get assigned to do you might try and do some bird hunting with a shotgun or trap shooting If you ever had to shoot a an enemy helicopter our low flying aircraft with a .50 they say that is the best type of training. What do you want to do in the armed forces?

rugerdude
October 23, 2004, 10:29 PM
Ideally I would like to be a squad machinegunner, or possibly a sniper but I have heard that you don't really get a choice. If I qualify expert with the M-16 then I could go to sniper training (right???). I do shoot skeet every once in a while, I also heard it is good training when the history channel did a thing on ball turret gunners. Mainly the sights are what I would like to figure out, A cheap single shot .223 with M-16 style sights would be awesome.

Danindetroit
October 24, 2004, 02:24 AM
That would mean you would use a m249 or the SAW. It is a Belgian designed machine gun that shoots .223 ammo from a box(200rds) that hooks underneath the weapon and feeds it a belt, it can also use standard M-16 Mags the barrel is 20.6". Any gun guys out there know waht is the optimum barrel length for the .223 meaning you are getting most of the powder burnt and you aren't going to gain much more velocity with a longer barrel, you might actually lose some. Sorry to get off subject. It is relative light at 22 lbs. loaded, a pound less than an m-60 without ammo. It should have a gas regulator to adjust how much gas is being siphoned off to work the action to chamber another round. This prevents run-aways where the gun keeps firing even though the trigger is not being pulled, It can also mean that the gun will stop firing at times. I suspect that when the gun get hot or it is hot outside you can dial down the gas. If it is cold you might need more. The cyclic rate is said to be 750 rpm. Hopefully the barrel is easy to swap out I am looking at a picture and I don't see a handle on it. The barrels on m-60's could reach 500 celcius which is over 600 degress farenheit, they issue the gunner or the guy who was the helper an asbestos "oven mitt" which almost always got lost. I think the have a better system I see a something that looks like a handle that you probably release the barrel is kept in place by a large ring around another on the barrel the olbarrel slips out put on the new barrel. It seems like the germans had a good idea with the MG 42 it had a cyclic rate of 1200 rounds a minute, they did this because they remembered from WWI that sometimes you only saw the enemy for a 1/2 second so you needed to put a great deal of fire down range. They could have a selector that had a low and high cyclic rate 1200 and 750. But it just might be 1 more thing to go wrong. Check out the website I listed and find the gun somewhere else. I saw one of the Pantherâ„¢ Super Bull Twenty-Four for $934 on a website is a large site that sells guns then ships them to FFL you could also get a used gun that might not be in good shape and put a new barrel on it. Probably a good way to get some time for free is write the state police and county police and tell them that you would like to see what it shoots like and why and they will probably either take you to the state range or an officer will come and pick you up and go to a private range on his own time. I thinl it is a circular peep sight in the back and a post up front. My cousin said they adjust for wind and elevation up front, but I think you can use the rear site to do it also. I think you have a daye sight that is .193 in dia. and a night sight that is larger. To get into the army you first take a test known as the asfab. From what I understand this test is just testing what an average senior in HS should know. I took it and got a 99th percentile. In MI when I was in school we had test called the MEAP. I think it stood for MI educational assesment profile. We took them in the 11th, 9th, 6th grades and others. It was like every 2 to 3 years I think and was meant to see if your school was teaching you everthing , or if you were learning anything. Do you take any test like that in your school? If you do and are not getting very high scores start studying math, reading, basic science, and chem, and physics. I am not bragging but I always was in the 99th percintile on those tests. They never gave us a real score just the percentile thing. The higher you score on your tests to get in the more latitude you have in picking what you want to do. Instead of saw you might want to operate the .30 cal that is mounted on top of the HUMVEE stell to protect your back and steel in front shooting a more powerful .308. I think you have to take a harder test after the asfab but higher scores = better oppurtunities. Try taking a few metal working classes and learn about lathes, and mills, you could become an armorer who fixes weapons, who makes the M24 which I think is a remington that the army still does some work on, I am not sure, they might get them ready to go. They snipers basic round is still a handloaded .308 but I am sure that they also use a .338 I am not sure which one it is. I don't know if they make there own guns or order them from one company, but being a gunsmith in the military would be a good way to learn about guns and make a nice living after your service was up. Especially if you worked with the marines shooting team. My cousin when he joined up for I think 3 years started out on tanks. When they asked him to join up for another tour he had good scores on his tests had a good service record he asked for a different job, meaning that he would have to be trained in a field that had more relevant job skills than his tanker position. They asked what he wanted he said medical tech analyzing blood, he had to sign up for 4 more years but now he was going to a school in colorado for 2 years, he learned how to take blood and then analyze it for all sorts of things, basically like when you go and get blood work at the Dr. He spent 2 years in school in colorado plus maybe 5 months of on the job training at a hospital there, did a year in Korea, 4 months in Kansas and got out early because he saved up his vacation time and took it at the end of his tour. He stopped by a small hospital up where he lives just to look around(he saved a lot of his money while in the service and while going to school he made it to sergant he figured he could not work for 18 months and go to school before he needed to start working) and see what kind of equipment they had. They offered him a job working 18 to 25 hours a week for $13 an hour he got 18 credits and now has an associates degree. He is still going to school. If you want to work as a gunsmith but they can't get it for you try doing what you said, try for sniper school. I am not sure if some special forces training before becoming a sniper will help with sniper training or do it the other way around. If they ask you to reup see if they will teach you gunsmithing. You will have a better idea what is important for somebody doing the sniping job because you have done it. It is good you have some goals so young, when I was in school it was take classes to go to college, and do what, I don't know make money. Well it turns out I don't like big houses, I like cars but they are just to get me from a to b, money isn't everything. One more piece of advice. If you are done growing try a little weight lifting and running. I think the 2 biggest problems the army has with new recruits is shooting skills and physical fitness. If you are still growing do pushups, pullups, and running on soft ground with good shoes. Sorry this is so long but I haven't been sleeping well in the last month, so I am up allnight most of the time.

Powderman
October 24, 2004, 04:25 AM
First thing, congratulations on your choice; any of the armed services will be OK, but IMHO, the Marines are best for young men who want to make the most of themselves. (And this from an Army vet!)

With that said, here's some pointers:

1. Physical fitness.

Start right now with strength-building exercises and running. The Marine Corps requires better physical conditioning at entry level than any other service does throughout their careers. Expect this as your entry test:

3 pullups
Crunches (sit-ups with your arms crossed on your chest. Your legs must be bent, and your feet flat on the floor, legs at a 45 degree angle or better.)
I do not remember if they do push ups or not for their entry level test--but, when you can do 50 bump your chest on the floor pushups, you can consider yourself ready.
1.5 mile run at entry--3 mile run before graduation. You must be able to maintain a minimum 7 minute/mile pace.
Weight control--you MUST meet your table weight standards before you will be allowed to enlist. There are NO exceptions made. Find out your weight allowance for your height. Get under that weight and STAY under that weight.

2. Background

Get good grades--I mean REALLY good grades and keep them there.
Stay far away from alcohol and drugs. Don't go near them or associate with anyone who does.
Stay out of trouble with the law. Have a spotlessly clean record.

The Marines are really picky about who gets in. My son made it along with 20 others who were trying to enlist--out of a group of 300 potential recruits.

3. Rifle marksmanship

The type of rifle is not important. How you shoot with it is.

Practice the basics--breathing, relaxing, aiming, sight alignment/sight picture, trigger squeeze without disturbing the sight picture. Practice shooting for groups--start at 50 yards, and move the target out at 25 yard increments. Use iron sights only, and remember that the quality of the shot is the important part.

Start preparing now, and good luck!

Danindetroit
October 24, 2004, 04:59 AM
I am curious as to what type of weight guidlines they have. If you are very muscular will they still make you lose weight? I wasn't sure how old he was so I did not want him to try and do too much at first and injure himself if he hadn't finished growing. It sounds like he could be only 14 and he could be having natural growing pains already. Pain with working out will quickly condition you to stop working out. I should have said this in my last post about physical activity. Geta physical like you have to get to play sports. Too much working out is worse than not enough. When you put some more info out there people can give you a few more guidelines. I am just playing it safe because I did not start my growth spurt until I was maybe 15, and didn't have to shave until I was 18 and then only once every 8 or 9 days to just remove mustache and chin stubble. I try to err on the side of caution when you have 3 1/2 year to get into shape you can get foot stress fractures and knee problems pretty quick.

USMCGrunt
October 24, 2004, 08:51 AM
Congrats on wanting to join the Corps and a pending Semper Fi to ya if you graduate boot. :)
Now as far as what kind of rifle you want to get, it's really not going to matter. My wife is in the Care Force and has asked to use my AR-15 or my 92FS because they are "what she'll use to qualify with" and I'll tell you the same thing I tell her, it's not going to matter what you shoot,the mechanics are all the same. I grew up shooting an old Winchester 69A bolt action and a Ruger 10/22. The only time I ever handled an M-16 was at poole events and even then, we only fired a couple rounds through them. No, it's not going to matter what weapon you get, it's all in the basics that are going to matter.

Breathe slowly, steadily allowing half your breath out before firing but only hold it for 8-10 seconds. Any more and if the shot doesn't break, your muslces will start to shake spoiling your shot.

Relax and don't let your nerves get the better of you. If you are well rested and calm, you are going to get far better results than the shooter that is nervous and jumpy. You aren't going to get it in boot but stay away from the caffine and nicotine when you shoot since they tend to make you a bit more jumpy.

Establish a natural point of aim. When you are in your position, line your sights up on the target. You'll get a few minutes of prep time to do this when you are on the KD range. Now close your eyes and don't move your rifle. Open them after a few second and check if you are still on target. If your sights have drifted off, you need to change your body position so it won't drift off target when you close your eyes. If your having to muscle your weapon on target, you're going to get tired and your shots are going to start going wild. Get that natural point of aim and it's going to be a lot easier.

Watch your sight picture. Your eye can only focus on one object at a time. Make your focus the front sight tip. The rear sight can be blurry and the target can be blurry but you are going to want to concentrate on that front sight tip. Yeah, you can change your focus between the target and rear sight as well but when you fire the shot, get your eye focused back where it belongs.

Squeeze your trigger slowly, steadily and straight to the rear. One of the worst mistakes I see people make is that once their sights are on target, they will snap off the shot quickly before the sights drift off the target again. Now your sights are going to wander around the target, there's no getting around it. My suggestion for always hitting the black is to start your squeeze when the front sight tip drifts onto the black. Once it drifts off the bull, stop squeezing. Don't let the trigger forward but don't put any more pressure on it either. Now when the front sight drifts back over the bull again, start your squeeze once more until the sights drift off the target or until your shot breaks. Think about this, if you were only squeezing the trigger while the sights were on the black, your shots are going to be somwehere on the black! ;)

That's the mechanics of shooting in it's most basic forum. An easy way to remember this is with the accronym, BRASS:
Breathe
Relaxe
Aim
Sights
Squeeze
You are going to hear this same thing from your PMI when you get to boot but I figured you ought to hear it here as well too and get a heads up on it. Listen to your PMIs, don't take that time around the barrels dry firing lightly and keep your positions tight and you shouldn't have a problem. :)

rugerdude
October 24, 2004, 09:24 AM
I am in great shape. I started weight lifting in 7th grade, but it wasn't anything serious and I have since stopped because pushups are easier to do because I don't have to go to the gym and I am a natural runner, the last mile I timed came in at 6:02 and I think I can improve. Thanks for all your advice!

Rugerdude.

asm826
October 27, 2004, 09:02 AM
The advice already posted on PT is the best. However, to directly answer your question, you can practice all the skills necessary with a decent quality .177 air rifle at 10 metres. Same for a .22lr at 50 metres. Breathing, position, trigger control, sight picture... etc. If you can punch good groups, it won't matter what you're practicing with.

Hang on to your dream.

Semper Fidelis

jimsailing
October 27, 2004, 09:29 AM
What a great kid. With your mother's and/or father's permission stick around at the skeet range. I have never met a teen, male or female, I would not loan my gun to for sporting clays or skeet or 5 station (and paid the fees). That is with the aforementioned permission. If there is a gun range at the skeet range I am sure there will be some serious shooters glad to take you under their wing. Be brave, have permission from home, and ask a couple of guys. Another thing, where I shoot skeet they hire some guys to operate the "pull" system, ask the owner for the job, or work for tips...just an idea. get in running shape (long runs), swim, and study...bright guys do the best in any branch of the service. Best of luck to you, and keep the dream.

rugerdude
October 27, 2004, 04:39 PM
Well I am going to get some peep sights for my 10/22, and probably take my newly aquiredf mosin nagant to the range this weekend. As for the job at the skeet range, I don't live anywhere near a skeet range, the range I am going to go to is 30 minutes away. It will be nice to be able to go shooting again though (I spent a long time saving for the gunshow to get the mosin nagant so I couldn't spent money on ammo).

Welcome to TFL asm826!