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View Full Version : What is your specs on a combat rifle.


Dark_Learner
October 13, 2004, 07:57 PM
Ok I will admit this is a little bit of a copy of your favorate combat rifle. But I was wandering why people chose what they chose because I have heard bad stuff about the FN FAL 9I hope that is whats it is called) from the Isriale Army. But still I wont you to voice your opoin about why you shose what you chose.

45 Fu
October 13, 2004, 09:01 PM
My main social purpose rifle is a WASR-10, which is the civilian version of the AK-47 (Romania), in 7.62x39mm. Here's my reasons:

1) Reliability. The AK series rifles can run in almost any climate with little maintainence. A rifle that does not work is worthless.

2) Parts and ammo are cheap and plentiful. Before the ban expired I could get 20 round mags for around $8.00 (average), 30 rounders for about $12.00 (also an average).

3) They are easy to clean and maintain and are not fickle about ammo.

4) Accuracy. They aren't bench rifles, but they will hold minute-of-chest out to 300 yards. I live in the SE US where the terrain is mostly hills/mountains with dense trees and underbrush. A shot over 150 is unlikely and would probably be unsound anyway.

5) Price. I got mine, with two sets of stocks and two 30 round magazines, for $235.

For me, this rifle fits my needs perfectly. If I lived in another part of the country where longer shots were called for I would probably bump up to something in .308. As it is, the rifle works and I hit what I aim at. Good enough for me.

Wraith
October 13, 2004, 09:47 PM
Ideally under the current legal status of weapons in the US, I'd have a DSA SA58, with sidefolder, bipod.

Alas, I can't afford that right now.

Other than the .308 (which I would only really want in an FAL-type or as the M1A(IwantIwantIwantIwant)), I would take the new 6.8 remington or the 7.62x39 round. The 7.62 is a more pratical right now, but I am hopeful for more weapons in 6.8.

Primarily, I desire a round that will drop someone fast. A .223 is a fun rifle to shoot, but no-good when it comes to man-dropping. I don't mind recoil (.308) because one shot is all I want to take. I want the versatility of a larger round (penetration, range, power).

I also want a rifle that is reliable and well made. For me, the DSA SA58 or M14 seems to fit the bill. Untill then, I have my SKS. I can hit anything out to 150 yards with irons (the farthest I've had the chance to shoot it) and it is dead reliable. As I live in New England, short ranges are the norm, but I would still prefer the power and versatility of the .308.

~Wraith

Tamara
October 13, 2004, 10:24 PM
In just the last year I have disposed of my HK-91, DR-200, AK-47, FN FAL, and AR-70 for various reasons, mostly having to do with clunky ergos. The only FBPP I have retained is an AR carbine, because the software I have for it is well-developed and ammo and mags are cheap. If the AR can't do it, I have a Garand that can. ;)

MTMilitiaman
October 14, 2004, 03:34 AM
My main social purpose rifle is a WASR-10, which is the civilian version of the AK-47 (Romania), in 7.62x39mm. Here's my reasons:

1) Reliability. The AK series rifles can run in almost any climate with little maintainence. A rifle that does not work is worthless.

2) Parts and ammo are cheap and plentiful. Before the ban expired I could get 20 round mags for around $8.00 (average), 30 rounders for about $12.00 (also an average).

3) They are easy to clean and maintain and are not fickle about ammo.

4) Accuracy. They aren't bench rifles, but they will hold minute-of-chest out to 300 yards. I live in the SE US where the terrain is mostly hills/mountains with dense trees and underbrush. A shot over 150 is unlikely and would probably be unsound anyway.

5) Price. I got mine, with two sets of stocks and two 30 round magazines, for $235.

For me, this rifle fits my needs perfectly. If I lived in another part of the country where longer shots were called for I would probably bump up to something in .308. As it is, the rifle works and I hit what I aim at. Good enough for me.

Ditto and ditto.

VaughnT
October 14, 2004, 03:59 AM
Well, I'm a bit ashamed to say that I don't have anything that fits this role quite yet. I do have a Marlin M45 Camp Carbine that I'm rather fond of, but it's not exactly a long-range manstopping battle rifle. Though, in its defense, it is quite handy around the house for repelling boarders, and it takes the same mags as my prefered sidearm.

Having said that, I just say an AR15 that has me drooling. It's a Bushie w/ the flattop upper and a removable carry handle, 16" bbl w/ stepped cut and some kind of 4port comp on the end. It doesn't have the bayo lug, which I insist on having, but it does have the prettiest camo job on the furniture (realtree, I think). I wanted something with a collapsing stock, but this girl is so pretty, I could bring her home without shedding a tear. Except for that $895 price tag!! :eek:

The one AK I've handled didn't feel to good when mounted to the shoulder. Same for the SKS a friend has. I do know that I want box-fed, whatever it is that finally makes it to my door.

Maybe an AR chambered for the 7.62x39?

foghornl
October 14, 2004, 06:45 AM
The US Rifle Cal .30 M1


Popularly Known As "The Garand"

rauchman
October 14, 2004, 08:37 AM
I currently own a Bushmaster 16" HBAR carbine flattop. Over on AR15.COM they recently had a group by for a 16" Bushmaster barrel with the 1/7" twist chrome plated chamber and bore. Picked up one of these as well, yet to be installed though. I live in Northeast NJ in a very densely populated area. I'm right by the Hudson river and can spit across the river to NYC.

My ideal setup would be 2 more AR's ( another 16" carbine and an SPR configuration) and an AR10 of some type. I know a lot of folks have objections to AR's seeing them as less than ideal. I find them easier to shoot than any AK variants that I've fired and considerably more modular. They are considerably more accurate and the wife definitely prefers them, finding them way easier to shoot than the AK variants. I won't be fighting in the desert with this weapon. If there were an SHTF scenario, I'd be fighting in my neighborhood. This weapon system just makes more sense to me. There are more ammo types available for the AR than the AK. I don't reload so this would all be factory ammo and I have to believe .223/5.56 is easier to acquire than 7.62x39.

Dark_Learner
October 14, 2004, 08:36 PM
Now give your oppoins w/o price as a factor.

45 Fu
October 14, 2004, 09:42 PM
Still the same. The ARs are fine rifles, no doubt, I just prefer the AK.

The only thing that would throw a fly into the ointment would be if the ranges at which I would be expected to shoot went past 200 yards, then we're talking .308. Probably an M-14 or FAL - most likely an M-14.

That's not to say I wouldn't own anything else, but one has to choose one's tools for the task at hand. The kicks and giggles stuff comes later.

Tamara
October 14, 2004, 09:54 PM
Now give your oppoins w/o price as a factor.

I just said that I'd sold, among others, an HK-91, Beretta AR-70, and a pre-'89 Norinco AKM/47S underfolder and still had the Rock River/Cavarms AR, right? ;)

cobain187
October 14, 2004, 11:07 PM
A .223 is a fun rifle to shoot, but no-good when it comes to man-dropping.

I too long for a 6.8, but you are incorrect as to the 5.56 capability to "drop a man". Except for a little bit of expansion, basic .308 (paticulary surplus) will drill a hole straight through the target. Thats not much wounding potential. However 5.56 in m193 will create devestating wounds when hitting a target at over 2700 fps. Thats 130 yards for a 20" and 100 yards for a 16" bbl. The bullet will yaw and fragment, creating a minisnowstorm of fragments inside the subject. Maximum damage. This will turn a near hit into a near miss. The 5.56's only flaws are the lack of fragmentation at range, some materials penetration, and longer range accuracy affected by wind. 6.8 would solve all these problems. 5.56 isn't perfect, but its one of the most devestating general rounds available.

Samuel2001
October 15, 2004, 12:38 AM
Lets see, if I needed a short range very acurate rifle/carbine I'd use my Bushy Disapator with trijicon TA44 scope and DCM trigger group. For intermidiate distances (300-600yds.) SA M1A loaded with Leupold 3.5-10 Tactical scope.
Now if the proverbial escrement struck the oscilating devise, then I'd have to enlist the services of my Hungarian SA-85 (AK47). It has never missed a beat, and I have fiered thousands of rounds through it. I just plain trust the thing!
All of my rifles have at least 10 magazines, but for some reason I ended up with several dozen German AK mags. :rolleyes:

Well, that's my plan!

bullfrog99
October 15, 2004, 01:43 AM
For now i'll use my SAR-1 with the same reasoning as 45 fu. Idealy, I would like a Saiga in 7.62x39 with a russian krinkov style sidefolder, M-16A2 style rear sight, Front sight on top of the gas block, Phantom flash hider, Bowie style bayonet, a foldable forward pistol grip like the ones bushmaster sells, and a red dot sight of quality manufacturing. I have heard lots of reports of saiga's doing 2.5 moa, and that is plenty for me out to the 7.62's useable 9" PBR, 265 yards.

Roadkill Coyote
October 15, 2004, 10:12 AM
Being in a rural area with a lot of wide open spaces, and because trouble out in the middle of nowhere almost always involves cars, I wanted a .308 for range and adequate pentration. Beyond that, I wanted something light and handy enough to get out of the car fast. When my finances finally allowed it, I settled on a DSA SA58 tactical carbine, and have been quite pleased with it.

Wraith
October 15, 2004, 02:11 PM
5.56 isn't perfect, but its one of the most devestating general rounds available.

Why is it that the generally accepted largest game for .223 is the coyote, when many go deer hunting with 7.62x39?

zpo
October 15, 2004, 05:01 PM
Adrenaline. Sometimes a deer seems to expect, or know its about to be shot. Hit one, near perfect w/ a 30.06 maybe 20 yards away. It ran 50 yards. No such thing as a magic bullet, where it hits, and (I guess) mental prep of the target determines the rest. But bigger is a good idea, just not the only one.
Btw, last time I checked the regs, in OK, minimum .22 caliber, center fire, 55 grain soft point.

Dark_Learner
October 15, 2004, 07:10 PM
Hears my opoin on the matter. If I was of the age to get a weapon (only 3 more years) I would get the M1A for longer ranges. It has the power and rugednes I would need if I was in combat. By the wasy dose any one know if the army or the milatary still has the M-14. But back to what I was saying, i also like the springfeild variants (or is that where its from :confused: ). For longer ranges I would haft to say a .338 lumpa mag. because it reaches and touches you(more likly to kick you) and you know about it. For shorter ranges I will chose an AR-15 style weapon with the .223 round. :D
Yes I do know these are very expsive weapons but they would be worth it in the end. :cool:
Now I must go watch the Day After Tomorow. :)

Quartus
October 15, 2004, 07:58 PM
Dark, I've heard the Marines are issuing a few M-14s to snipers, but I can't confirm that. The M1A is basically a semi-auto M-14.

jercamp45
October 15, 2004, 08:25 PM
the AK is not a match gun....but I am not getting it for that.
I had a Saiga that was fine, and more accurate than I thought it would be but I sold it during a move. Now I am in the process of tricking out a Bulgarian SLR-95. A few bells, whistles, lotsa mags, ammo and spare parts. I'll be a very happy camper.
Perfect, no...but it'll do most of what I need done, reliably.
The MBR's are nice...but I have lots of stuff to carry already...a heavier rifle and mags and ammo is fun to play with, but not to be packing around.
I never warmed to the AR, even though I carried one for Uncle Sam for 4 years, and have shot several of the 'new and improved' versions. With expanding projectiles, it has proven to be quite devestating for CQB.
Jercamp45

Roadkill Coyote
October 15, 2004, 09:54 PM
I would get the M1A for longer ranges.For longer ranges I would haft to say a .338 lumpa (Lapua?) mag.For shorter ranges I will chose an AR-15 style weapon with the .223 round.
I thought we were talking about choosing a general purpose combat rifle. :confused:

Although this one-for-this, one-for-that argument seems to turn up around here every other day, the idea that one would know what kind of gunfight he was going to get in before leaving the house in the morning, and thereby choose the correct rifle from the golf bag by the door still facinates me. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against having a safe full of EBRs, but when the question is choosing a first, general purpose rifle, I suggest canning the this-and-that approach. Choose a good one based on the general circumstances, and train, train, train for all contingencies.

Sorry to sound preachy, but I just needed to get that off my chest...

zpo
October 15, 2004, 09:59 PM
You don't choose a rifle from the golf bag by the door, you carry the golf bag. Sheesh, some people. :)

Samuel2001
October 15, 2004, 11:56 PM
Golf bag??? Where do I get one? How many rifles can I fit in one? Can I use the nifty numbered and fluffy socks over the muzzle?

I like the idea!

I'd probably put an assortment of shotguns in mine and go play some REDNECK GOLF(sporting clays)! :rolleyes:

cobain187
October 16, 2004, 04:11 AM
Why is it that the generally accepted largest game for .223 is the coyote, when many go deer hunting with 7.62x39

Think about it. A deer, like all big game, walks on all 4 legs. An angled or rear shot would require deeper (but not excessive) penetration than a 5.56 could provide. Would i shoot a deer with a 5.56 ? Only within 150 yards with a good ammo choice and a good shot. A human walks erect, with an average adult. having a chest 13-14 inches front to back versus a deer thats 4 feet front to back. A m193 5.56 is devestating ungainst unprotected humans. A .308 would be excessive for a person, save the need for materials penetration, but other than maybe nosler balistic tips, your not gonna get fragmentation with a .308. I think many people who rely on a battle rifle might one day learn to their horror that a fmj at 30 yards to an approaching unfriendly simply "drills a hole through him, not better than a basic ak round, and does not "drop him" on the spot. Actually, Wolf 7.62x39mm FMJ is a better round than .308 surplus, only in the category of wounding effectiveness. The wolf bullet will yaw and fly sideways through a person, while the .308 goes straight. I'd only choose a .308 if i lived west of the Mississippi, and therefore was surronded by long open ranges. A round thats good for a deer isn't the best for a human and vice versa.

from http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm
"The subject then shifted his pistol, held by one hand in a bladed stance, towards the reacting officer. In "less than a second" the subject’s hostile action was countered by the officer by firing two fast, sighted, tightly controlled pairs, for a total of four rounds at the subject. Rounds one and two missed, but were contained by the structure. Round three connected, penetrated and remained in the subject. Round four grazed his upper chest and exited as he spun and fell. Round three was quickly effective. The collapsing subject ceased all motor movement and expired within 60 seconds. The involved officer was aware of each round fired and simultaneously moved to cover. Tactical members were then confronted by a female accomplice armed with a double-barreled shotgun. However, the involved officer also successfully negotiated her surrender. All .223 rounds that missed the subject struck parts of the building’s internal structure, fragmented and remained inside.

When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused by the .223 round. There was a two-inch void of tissue in the chest, with a literal "snowstorm" of bullet fragments and secondary bone fragments throughout the upper left chest area. The round struck the subject 11 inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds: · Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries. · The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5x6 centimeters.

What is significant about this "instant one-shot stop" was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system. It is doubtful that this type of terminal ballistic performance could have been achieved by any of the police service pistol/SMG rounds currently in use. "

itgoesboom
October 16, 2004, 01:42 PM
If I could afford it, I would get an HK91 or a DSA FAL, but since I can't, I have a CETME and an SKS as a backup.

I think the CETME will work in this role just fine for me. Its accurate, reliable, and fires .308.

I.G.B.

Dark_Learner
October 20, 2004, 06:10 PM
Ok I'll choose one rifle sences everyone is so nit picky arownd hear. I would choose the M1A because it is ruged, lasting, and when I hit you you know about it :cool: . I am choosing this because I live in a hill/vally area. But if I was going into combat persay in in the great plains area. The .338 Lupa Mag. would be the fire arm of choice.

Wallew
October 20, 2004, 06:23 PM
FIELD USAGE by spec op warriors has PROVEN over the past ten years the .223 to be virtually WORTHLESS in combat situations. Unless you LIKE shooting some guy between ten and fifteen TIMES before he falls over.

Give me the battle prove .30 cal any day of the week. You shoot someone and HIT THEM, THEY FALL OVER and generally DON'T GET UP. BUT THEY DEFINATELY FALL OVER.

Why do you think the Spec op guys went to AR master Chris Murray with the AMU to help develop the current 6.8mm? BECAUSE he could gin it up on the cheap and it FITS AR mags and rifles.

IF the .223 were such a 'killer' round that pro .223 champions like to say, WHY did the pointy end of the stick guys (spec op) WANT SOMETHING BETTER? Because it just don't work against bad guys.

I would LOVE to have a .338 Lapua Mag. I've handled ONE RIFLE that used that caliber. Shot straight as a line.

telewinz
October 20, 2004, 06:48 PM
A Galli in .223 with folding stock would fit 95% of the bill IMHO.

Dark_Learner
October 20, 2004, 08:20 PM
That's why I chose the M1A, because dosent it hold a 7.62 round right :confused: ? Plus I like the ruged desing of it :cool: . Any ways the reason the milatary uses the .223 is because they want to carry as much ammo as possible. It is a killer when used propproly( I am dislesic please deal with the spelling problem) like when you shoot them in the head :p . But I do agree that the milatary has some issues sticking to a wuss round. I :barf: at the idea that I would use it for much more than home deaffence, or if I just want a lot and I mean a lot of ammo for cheap and near no wate. But that is the only reasone I would use it.

Oh, yes I forgot something, I think that the Ak is a suppior weapon in the sence of rugednes and power. Did I just say that out loud :eek: . Now that I got that off my keyboard I will admit that the M-16A2 is a good weapon. It is light and very versital. It has a lot of range for its power. Is that the way it realy works out :confused: or I am just been lied to when I was told by my range master "The .22, .223 and the .50 cal are the most powerfull when speed to weight rasio. A .22 took out the worlds largest recorded bare. More assains use it that anything els."

If I havent been lied to I still prefer the 7.62, 30-06, and the .338 Lupa Mag.

Tamara
October 20, 2004, 08:39 PM
FIELD USAGE by spec op warriors...

...is a phrase that, when used to start a post, is pretty much guaranteed to make the remainder of it sound like Charlie Brown's teacher. ;)

roscoe
October 20, 2004, 11:35 PM
Ha Ha Ha!

legacy38
October 21, 2004, 01:05 AM
What can I say? It still the one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/legacy38/firearms/336.jpg
Marlin 336 in .30-30 with Ramline synthetic stock and all of the metal parkerized in black. It doesn't have the capacity of the other social rifles mentioned here, but I figure if the social scene is so bad that the 7 in the rifle plus the 9 in the buttcuff can't handle it I'm in really bad shape.

rauchman
October 21, 2004, 11:51 AM
I posted earlier that I like the AR15's, particularly the carbines. Do I think the 5.56 is the ultimate round in a SHTF scenario for people trained for combat....no. Do I think the 5.56 makes the most sense for someone who does not shoot a hell of a lot with rifles...yes. Count me as the latter. If it came down to actually being in a situation where the TaliBan were infiltrating my area, or zombies were coming after me...whatever, I'm sure my skill level (which is very low) would benefit from having a handy carbine that was very low recoiling, accurate, and ergonomically superior over just about anything else. Vs. an AK-47 that kicks a bit harder, not as accurate, and definately ergonimcally inferior. I'm not going to get into anything .308 for this type of scenario. Recoil would be a negating factor. Don't get me wrong. For anything past 150-200 yards, I would definitely want a .308/7.62 using hunting rounds, where I would hopefully have time to place shots. My big thing to is to have a weapon that would allow me to make hits or put a lot of lead in the air to keep heads down.......and very probably run away from the threat. That may sound cowardly, but the reality is, I'm not trained in combat and I'm not that good with a rifle. Living in NJ doesn't really allow for practicing with combat scenarios in mind. For me, the AR is the best thing out there to allow me to shoot easily to make hits and scatter a lot of lead.

keens
October 21, 2004, 12:58 PM
Legacy38...love that lever action...very nice. I think H&K got it right when they speced out the H&K 91.

legacy38
October 21, 2004, 01:28 PM
Thanks keens. It works great for my needs. The stocks don't protect much from heat due to sustained fire, but they are 30% lighter than the wood, and they fit me a little better.

Danindetroit
October 21, 2004, 02:04 PM
I think legacy38 has posted one of the first assault rifles. I am pretty sure around the the 1880's and up while the us stuck to springfield single shots that european armies were buying winchesters for their calvary. If not there main battle rifle. I could swear that the english had some very embarassing defeats to armies who had greater volumes of fire and captured some artillery pieces. The english blamed the defeats on "inferior" colonial troops(indians) but I think it was the rate of fire of the martini henry and mis-communication. So if anybody ever asks what do you do with you battle rifle tell them I hunt deer. That is a very nice gun. I know it is a marlin, I thought that marlin and winchester lever guns were very similar. No offense to anyone who has a strong opinion on either gun brand.

Dark_Learner
October 22, 2004, 05:31 PM
......Qwueston. I dont like when people get off task. Please resopd propolly.

Roadkill Coyote
October 22, 2004, 06:57 PM
It's not really off task. I may not be a big lever gun guy, but if they fill the man's requirements, what's wrong with that? Who's to say a lever gun can't fill the role, certainly not anyone familiar with the battle of Plevna (http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/TurkWin.htm)

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/TurkWin01.jpg

legacy38
October 22, 2004, 07:39 PM
Ok I will admit this is a little bit of a copy of your favorate combat rifle. But I was wandering why people chose what they chose because I have heard bad stuff about the FN FAL 9I hope that is whats it is called) from the Isriale Army. But still I wont you to voice your opoin about why you shose what you chose.


......Qwueston. I dont like when people get off task. Please resopd propolly.

If that was directed at my repsonse to your question then I apologize. I thought that you asked for what people here used as their primary
protective rifle. Well, this is what I use. I feel that the capacity is sufficient for any situation that I am likely to face. I feel that it is utterly reliable, and I prefer the load to the .223. Plus, I got it all at a price much less than a AR.

Click here (http://suarezinternational.com/forums/upload/showthread.php?t=649&highlight=lever+action) to see what Gabe Suarez has to say about the use of a leveraction rifle.

varoadking
October 22, 2004, 07:58 PM
The US Rifle Cal .30 M1

Got that right...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/rifle4.jpg

Dark_Learner
October 22, 2004, 10:04 PM
Ok I stuck my own foot in my mouth, agreed. Please tell me how far I did though.

JohnKSa
October 22, 2004, 10:14 PM
Basic
.260 remington
At least 18" barrel
Barrel twist calibrated for 140 gr bullets
Under 10 lbs
Stainless parts where feasible
Melonite on all non stainless parts
Chrome lined bore and chamber
Semi-auto only
Flash Hider
Front locking rotating bolt
Bolt locks to barrel.

Loading
Detachable box magazines 20 rounds or more capacity
mag release accessible to shooting hand
Straight insertion mag--no rocking motion
bottom feed, top or side eject
Op handle must act on the bolt in both open and close directions.
Bolt hold open on empty mag
Bolt release accessible to shooting hand

Gas Operated
Short Stroke Gas system
Adjustable gas system.
Gas piston diameter = bore diameter to allow cleaning with bore brush.
Straight gas tube to allow cleaning with bore brush & rod.
Gas tube accessible from both ends to allow easy cleaning with bore brush.

Miscellaneous
Cleaning kit storage on rifle.
Field strip to less than 10 parts without tools.
Possible to disassemble further than field strip (to reasonable level--likely parts replacement) with no tools or only tools stored in rifle.
Sling provisions
Carry handle
Bipod provision (not necessarily integral but easy attach.)
Quick attach/detach scope capability with zero retained.

Black Synthetic Stocks
"Wrinkle" texture
Pistol grip
Vented front handguard with metal inserts to prevent overheating.

Sights and accuracy.
Must group better than 2.5" with issue ammo at 100 yards.
Sight radius of at least 24"
Rear click adjustable peep sight.
Rear clicks for elevation are marked with range.
Rear clicks for windage marked in MOA.
Rear clicks must have quick lock feature to prevent accidental clicking.
Front post sight adjustable for elevation and windage.
Front sight adjustments MUST be very secure.

Trigger and Safety
Two stage trigger
6lb pull weight
Passive Firing pin safety
Passive Out of battery safety
Hammer blocking manual safety
Manual safety lever accessible to shooting hand for RELEASE. May require non-shooting hand to engage.

legacy38
October 22, 2004, 10:29 PM
Ok I stuck my own foot in my mouth, agreed. Please tell me how far I did though.

No sweat, man. No offense taken. I'm all for folks that want ARs AKs and such having them. I just like the old levergun. I would love to add an 1894 in .357 to go along with my .30-30. An 1895 Guide Gun in .45-70 would be nice as well. :)

Dark_Learner
October 22, 2004, 10:29 PM
:confused: I hate to run into the guy above 38's post in/on a bad day.

JohnKSa
October 22, 2004, 10:37 PM
The only thing to be scared of is if you're the one who has to design and build the rifle to meet those specs--or maybe the person who has to pay for one after it's built...

Dark_Learner
October 23, 2004, 02:56 AM
It might be cheaper than you think. Besides someone who knows what the want, what they have, and knows how to use it is my biggest fear if an intruder comes.

Plus I am less afraid of a distrot man with a gun that he just baught, than per-say a person distrot with a gun and knows tha weapon like the back of his hand. :(

Then again you might be one of those people that just thinks it sound good to have it......but then again I dont want to test this out in any way shape or form.

Powderman
October 23, 2004, 05:08 AM
with the proper ammunition.

5.56 FMJ is a good round, but the possibility of having to use multiple rounds is discouraging.

However, if you're cultivating SHTF ammo, then reloads are not a problem as long as you get all the components and make some quality ammo.

Simply exchange the 55 gr. FMJ for a 55 gr. soft point, and watch what happens.

I tried an experiment, decidedly unscientific but eye opening to say the least.

I loaded up a quantity of 55 grain FMJ, and the same amount of 55 gr. softpoint. No magic bullets, just some bulk gun show plastic baggie bullets.

The charge was the same--23.5 of Data Powder 2200 in some, and 25.0 of Varget in others. The test medium was one-gallon milk jugs, filled with a scientifically formulated medium, commonly known as mud. (Sand and water mixed to the slurry stage.)

Jugs were placed at 50 and 100 yards; I also put out some 1 liter soft drink bottles with water for the splatter factor.

I then engaged each jug at the specified ranges with my Frankengun, an AR15: Oly Arms lower, Armalite A4 upper, with chrome lined heavy barrel, 1:9 twist. The results were enlightening.

The FMJ barely made the jugs quiver. Nice neat little holes in, neat little holes out. Most jugs took at least four hits to even make the thing move. Examination through a scope on the water bottles showed leaks, and that was it.

The soft point? Holy CRAP!! :eek:

Each hit on a mud jug produced a massive explosion of mud and plastic fragments at all ranges. There was a nice entry hole, but the backs of the jugs were blasted out, and mud was spread a good distance from the jug. Hits on the water bottles were even more spectacular; the bottles were completely shattered into fragments, with some launching their tops skyward on impact in an impressive spray of water.

So, load up some with softpoints! By the way, another good bullet that's kinda pricey, but will give almost identical performance is the 52 grain MatchKing.

JohnKSa
October 23, 2004, 06:05 PM
Powderman,

The test you did shortchanges the military .223 FMJ rounds. They are designed to tumble after penetrating for a depth of around 8 to 11 centimeters (3 to 5 inches). That allows them to do a significant amount of tissue disruption while still penetrating a decent depth. The milk carton/mud test has two problems. First the medium is not really a good substitute for flesh--water would have probably been better. Second the round is barely starting to tumble by the time it exits the carton--particularly in the mud medium.

The softpoints begin expanding immediately but that limits their penetration to about two-thirds of what the FMJ rounds will.

Powderman
October 23, 2004, 06:25 PM
Yes--the original design 55 gr. M193 ball round will do just that.

However, the recent "improvements" in the 5.56 round almost guarantees stabilization, even after impact.

These changes were: change to the 62 gr. SS109 round (higher sectional density, and BC), and changing the rifling to 1:9 from 1:14. This stabilizes the round. Also, the SS109 has the penetrator.

I do know that the M193 had a nasty habit of breaking at the cannelure; I don't know about the SS109 projectile. Any insight on this?

Marcus
October 23, 2004, 06:47 PM
I think my specs would be filled pretty nicely by a DSA 16.25" FAL with para folder,aluminum lower frame,rail equipped handguard and Ergo Grip chambered in .243 Win. Top it with an Aimpoint and co witnessed irons. It should combine handy size,proven durability/reliability,with great power and controlability. 90gr.JSPs should provide very good expansion AND penetration with better control than 7.62. Until I can afford something like that though I`ll have to settle for my CETME or Bushy CAR-15HB. ;) Marcus

JohnKSa
October 23, 2004, 07:23 PM
Powderman,

Haven't seen anything on the SS109. However, the 62 gr M855 actually starts yawing quicker than the 55 grain rounds. That may be with the old barrel twist though--don't know.