View Full Version : Another 'Frankengun' thread

September 29, 2004, 08:12 PM
I was working at the gunshop the other day when I got a question asked of me. I thought that it was the dopiest thing I've heard in a long time but I promised to pass it along. Here goes...

What, if any, would be the legal ramifications of adding a pump shotgun barrel beneath the barrel of a semi-auto rifle (AK, AR, etc.)? Would it be verboten because of length rules? Would it be just too damned awkwad to use? Why do I get asked these questions?

September 29, 2004, 08:36 PM
To fit a standard pump shotgun action under most 20-ish" barrel semis would require a, what, 8-ish" shotgun barrel to not protrude? That would make the shottie a SBS and they'd need the AOW paperwork. Although, it wouldn't have a stock on it as such. Use the semi's mag as a "pistolgrip" like the 203 and it wouldn't even technically be a smoothbore "pistol". Hmmmm. My money's on it needing to be made into a legal AOW though, just due to barrel length.

Other than that, I dont think theres anything inherently illegal about making a semi into a "combo gun".

September 29, 2004, 11:32 PM
Back before all the Ban nonsense, someone was advertising in The Shotgun News a kit to mount a Remington 870 under an AR-15.

The pictures showed an AOW mounted.
Mounting an 18" gun would have the barrel sticking out a good ways.

A setup like this is going to be HEAVY, long, and clumsy.

I think the original idea was to use the thing as a SWAT entry weapon, by using the shotgun as a "Door Knocker" to blow door hinges off. The user would then transition to the AR.

As above, I heard they were just too heavy, bulky, and clumsy. It was ineffective as both a shotgun and a rifle.

Another one of those great ideas that just don't pan out in the real world.

September 29, 2004, 11:49 PM
Doesn't someone in Predator have one like that?

There's a commercially made pump shotgun/.223 like this.

Legally, it should be okay as long as you have the mandated 18" of shotgun barrel, or the NFA tax stamp.

I don't think it would actually be useful, though. But how about mounting a silenced .45 action under the barrel for "infiltration"?

September 30, 2004, 12:37 AM
I think that 'Predator' was where he got the idea. I told him that I thought he'd have to maintain the 18 in. bbl. Way front heavy. Thanks all.

September 30, 2004, 03:01 AM
In view of the recent court decision on "NFA" weapons that had not passed through interstate commerce - it would seem that something of "home manufacture" could be made quite compact and cheaply.

Personally I wouldn't want to encumber a rifle with such a thing; reminds me of the OICW. The M203 40mm grenade launcher is cumbersome enough on an M16 despite only weighing about three pounds.

September 30, 2004, 08:24 AM
Well, I don't know what constitues an AOW exactly, but the Crossfire 12 ga/.223 pump was made for a few years up until recently:


September 30, 2004, 09:13 AM
Weird looking - would probably give Sarah a heart attack just knowing that such a thing exists! :eek:


Any idea if it's a reliable gun? I can see it being useful on a ranch...

September 30, 2004, 10:24 AM
Yes, the Crossfire was the pump gun I was trying to think of.

September 30, 2004, 01:39 PM
its a breaching shotgun system for CQB
one of the originals was the Knight's Masterkey

theres a new one undergoing testing in Afganistan

September 30, 2004, 02:03 PM
Any idea if it's a reliable gun? I can see it being useful on a ranch...

I've heard a couple of owners mention reliability problems, but the folks I know that have one generally don't shoot them much, and bought them for the "Gee, whiz! That's different!" Factor. They are amazingly unwieldy. :o

September 30, 2004, 02:07 PM
They are amazingly unwieldy.

I can believe that. Probablly worse than a '16 with an M-203 on it.

At least that manages to produce some satisfying fireworks to justify its existence. :D

So, dZ, if they'e going to hang an 870 under the barrel of a long arm, why not just carry a full length rifle instead of that stupid carbine? You ain't saving any length with that rig!

October 1, 2004, 04:34 PM
Army fields new shotgun system - Infantry News
Infantry Magazine, *Winter, 2003 *

A new lightweight shotgun system (LSS) developed by the Soldier Battle Lab is currently being fielded by U.S. Soldiers serving in Afghanistan. About 200 of the XM-26 shotgun systems were delivered to 10th Mountain Division units in Kandahar and Bagram in November 2003.

The 10th Mountain will field the lightest variation of the 12-gauge shotgun systems, which attaches under the M4 modular weapons system (MWS), and weighs 2 pounds, 11 ounces, which is less than the M203 grenade launcher.

The system is a five-round, box-magazine fed, manually operated shotgun. It uses a straight push-pull type bolt action that can be switched for either left or right-handed users. The attachment variation is 16.5 inches in length and uses the host weapon's sights. It is capable of firing lethal, nonlethal and breaching rounds.

The shotgun stand-alone version is converted from the attachable version by adding a pistol grip and a butt stock. The stand alone weighs 4 pounds, 3 ounces and is 24 inches long, collapsed. This version also has a reversible charging handle and is capable of firing lethal, nonlethal and breaching rounds.

The original system was a prototype for proof of concept, said Mike Barnes, chief of the Battle Lab's Robotics Division. The one being fielded applied lessons learned from the first iterations of testing to make them more reliable in the field.

During the operational inspections and test firing, the Battle Lab, with assistance from two 10th Mountain NCOs fired nearly 20,000 00 Buckshot, M-1030 breaching, M-1012 and M-1013 nonlethal rounds through the 199 weapons that were going to be sent to Afghanistan to ensure no Soldier would be issued a defective or otherwise ineffective LSS, according to Soldier Battle Lab Project Officer Michael Kennedy.

Battle Lab personnel also deployed to Afghanistan to sign over the weapons and gave comprehensive instruction on aspects of the XM-26 to include capabilities, limitations, features, zeroing, disassembly and maintenance to units receiving the LSS. Classroom instruction as well as ranges were held in both Kandahar and Bagram to familiarize the Soldiers with their new weapons.

Even after the Battle Lab staff returned to Fort Benning, the deployed Soldiers can still contact the lab with questions and problems and are encouraged to send feedback on the weapons system.

"Out of the 200 weapons, I've fired about 50 of them, and I'm confident in the system," said Staff Sergeant William Partin, an instructor at the 10th Mountain's Light Fighter School and one of the two NCOs who helped test the weapon system.

"I think it's a great weapon system, being able to attach to the M-4 and as a stand-alone," he said. "I like that it's light. This is the lightest weapon I've carried in the Army besides a pistol. It weighs just about nothing."

Soldiers can use the shotgun as an all-round tool in urban environment, Barnes said. They can use the nonlethal and breaching capabilities, and the big advantage is that they don't have to sling their primary weapon to do it.

"Think about what's going on in the world right now," said Staff Sergeant Tito Zelada, a Light Fighter School instructor who also tested the LSS. "You have combatants and noncombatants together in a crowd, and (the nonlethal capability) is a good way to neutralize them, whether or not they are armed."

Numerous units in the field expressed the need for a tool like this, Barnes said. "I think it will get a lot of use."

"I thought the Remington 870--what we teach with--was sufficient, but this gives us the upper hand on the way we breach," Partin said. "It's more accessible and easier than having to switch weapons."

The creation of the LSS and its fielding is due to the efforts of Battle Lab staff. In 1997, the concept for the LSS was almost abandoned after the development community was convinced the concept would not work. The Battle Lab wasn't as easily swayed and continued to investigate the potential of an accessory shotgun and its military utility. The lab staff's persistence and hard work finally paid off in 2003 when the XM-26 underwent operational inspections and acceptance testing in September and October at Fort Benning's Buckner Range.

The XM-26 LSS will provide Soldiers with an extremely versatile weapon that allows them to use lethal, nonlethal and breaching rounds and give them the agility to defeat a wide range of threats.

Editor's Note: Information for this article was compiled from articles by Specialist Brian Trapp of Fort Benning's The Bayonet newspaper, and Major Roy C. Manauis and Michael Kennedy of the Soldier Battle Lab.

COPYRIGHT 2003 U.S. Army Infantry School
COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group


October 1, 2004, 04:42 PM

October 10, 2004, 11:16 AM
Does it have a built-in can opener, too? How about throwing a winch or a ram on there while they're at it, lol? The ultimate "breaching" tools.

October 11, 2004, 03:08 AM
"Think about what's going on in the world right now," said Staff Sergeant Tito Zelada, a Light Fighter School instructor who also tested the LSS. "You have combatants and noncombatants together in a crowd, and (the nonlethal capability) is a good way to neutralize them, whether or not they are armed."

And think about the idea of gearing our military towards this kind of work as "the norm" throughout the world. This is a police function not the military.

Why not just drop huge nets suspended from helos, and troll them like fish, and sort the herrings from the cod later?

All I can say is that anyone who thinks you are going to selectively engage "combatants and noncombatants in a crowd" at street level with such things hasn't been around a hostile crowd.

October 12, 2004, 12:13 AM
Not a dumb question at all...infact it's been done and done well.
In fact some of the older ones date back to vietnam...

New ones are made by KAC...

Now this is odd


October 12, 2004, 10:14 AM
Why a pistol? Maybe I don't get it...

October 12, 2004, 02:17 PM
1. Yeah a pistol under a subgun is just dumb.
2. If you fire right handed, you would have to fire the pistol left handed.
3. In the civilian world, you would have to register that as an SBR.
4. What's the point, if you can't do it with a subgun, you prolly ain't going to do it with a pistol attached to a subgun.
5. That's why CQB slings were made.

October 12, 2004, 03:45 PM
"If you fire right handed, you would have to fire the pistol left handed."

Exactly. That's the point - you can get them a double dose of lead by firing both at the same time - JK. ;)