View Full Version : This should settle the AK vs. M16 debate.

December 22, 2002, 02:50 AM
Check this out. The all new AK M4 now being used in Afganistan by US troops.


December 22, 2002, 03:06 AM
Excellent idea.

December 22, 2002, 03:11 AM
Hey - it's a gun that makes a hi-point look pretty!

But I'd still want one in 5.45x39, though.

December 22, 2002, 03:14 AM
That's a twist.
I am familiar with usin the weapons of others when in their playground.
Usin their ammo darn efficient....as long as they didn't prep some for just such use.


December 22, 2002, 08:53 AM
Clever. Wonder if the rifle will make its way into the civilian market?

Art Eatman
December 22, 2002, 09:17 AM
Nice to see somebody in the Pentagon pay attention to the concept of "purpose". :) Seems to me I've commented on that a time or two, around here...

Some Grunt said, "Hey, Sarge..." and Sarge sez, "Hey, Cap'n..." and somebody up the line emailed somebody who pushed the right buttons.

The arena of SPIW may have some weird stuff, but at least some imagineering is going on, and even a blind hog gets an acorn from time to time.



December 22, 2002, 10:25 AM
Can I have one?! PLEEEASE???!!

Smart, and cost effective too, imagine how much money could be saved in ammo. They need to make sure that it is designed with loose enough tolerances to reliably feed poorly stored and third world manufactured ammunition.

December 22, 2002, 10:55 AM
Popular Mechanics had a story about this, too.
Dual-Ammunition Rifle (http://popularmechanics.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=9129240&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFind%2Ecfg&host_id=1&page_id=786&query=stoner+rifle&hiword=STONER+RIFLE+STONE+RIFLES+STONES+RIFLED+STONED+RIFLING+)

It seems like a really clever idea. I'd like to see some reviews on the weapon's effectiveness in combat. For what it's worth, though, why, oh why didn't someone come up with this one sooner?

December 22, 2002, 11:07 AM
An unnatural hybrid.

gordo b.
December 22, 2002, 12:31 PM
I just hope the BG dont remember the US produced booby trap 7.62x39 ammo I helped spread around certain "undiscovered" ammo caches in VN in 70. It involved batches with some non movable bullets and high explosives in chicom headstamped green laguered steel cases. I was assured it would blow hands and face off. I am not kidding!:eek:

December 22, 2002, 03:58 PM
I need one of those.

Any idea about the reliability for that setup?

December 22, 2002, 04:08 PM
Whadd'ya suppose this is?


December 22, 2002, 04:08 PM
Of course you can buy an AR15 upper in that caliber readily. The beauty of this weapon is that it also uses AK mags. .

December 22, 2002, 06:11 PM
It sure looks sweet though don't it!

December 22, 2002, 06:15 PM
Why not just use an AK?

- Seems to me like a typical U.S. government (read expensive) solution to an easy problem. It doesn't matter. It is only tax dollars.

These wars will destroy America. Guarranteed. We are financially bankrupt. And, like Rome, will collapse due to our overextension.

Okay - back to the AR vs. AK endless debate....

December 22, 2002, 06:31 PM
What's the big deal? Colt made a 7.62x39mm AR-15. Oly still does. This one takes AK magazines. Forgive me, but it seems this rifle's maker stumbled upon the obvious.

7.62x39mm is superior to either 5.56 or 5.45 for suppressed use, however. A .223 caliber or .21 caliber (respectively) bullet can only be made so heavy. For suppressed use, you want the heaviest bullet you can, since you have a velocity limit of around 1000 feet per second (so as to avoid the sonic crack).

A bigger bullet can be made heavier. A 250gr. bullet @ 1000fps is better than a 100gr. one.

December 22, 2002, 06:35 PM
I agree, it is kind of a waste when AK's are in such abundance. But this way, the military doesn't have to train our guys to use more than one rifle. The manual of arms is the same as the M16's and M4's they were trained on, and it lets them mount the same optics.

December 22, 2002, 07:49 PM
The advantage is that there is no new training or muscle memory retraining needed. Also it is more accurate than an AK. Uses the same optics and add on stuff as the M16. Allows deniabilty. "We weren't there, look, those are AK mags and 7.62x39 brass"

December 22, 2002, 08:03 PM
Looks good to me, except for all the doo-dads. The big design flaw of the M16 has been the straight mag well and it's good to see somebody has fixed it. Stoner (or Colt) did make a few with curved mag wells for fully curved magazines but the gomt wanted the angled 30 rounder like the familiar M1 carbine had.

December 22, 2002, 09:52 PM
Robinson also created a very modified M96 that took AK mags at DOD request. Used an M4 fire control. Guess they didn't get the contract.

Considering how much a typical Knight rifle costs (even the Gov't), this seems like a waist of money. The Spec Ops types using this thing are used to a wide variety of rifles already (M14, M16, MP5), why would adding another (that many are already familiar with) cause a training problem? Throw something together on an RPK receiver if accuracy is an issue. Or issue Valmets.

The MK23 of 7.62X39.:eek:

December 22, 2002, 10:36 PM
Seriously, how hard could it be to teach a soldier to fire an AK? Manual of arms? Besides the fact that they should already be familiar with AKs, it is just not that hard. I would say it would take 15-20 minutes training. Tops.

No, they had to design a whole new gun. It is only tax payer money. No big deal.

December 22, 2002, 10:53 PM
I'm sure that we could get our hands on a few AK47's,AK74's or AKM's to hand out to the SF guys. It's not like the US Government doesn't have a few of these in their inventory somewhere.:rolleyes:

Jeff White
December 23, 2002, 01:46 AM
It's not a training issue at all. It's the fact that the AK is not suitable for what the SOF community needs. There are plenty of AK series weapons in the Army inventory. The Special Operations community asked that this weapon be created/ They could have had any AK they wanted, and they wanted an M4 that was in 7.62x39 and used AK mags.

This is probably a little more dangerous, because in many parts of the world, soldiers with M16 type weapons will be identified as American. Soldiers dressed like the locals carrying AKs would be more easily confused with friendly foreces by the enemy. So obviously these professional warriors realize the tactical advantage just carrying AKs would give them is out wieghed by the greater reliability and accuracy of an M16.


That should stir the pot


December 23, 2002, 02:40 AM
This thing still has the crappy direct impingement gas system does it not? Now firing even dirtier ammo, what a great combo! Or not... Still need to fix that. Should have just built a quality AK that had M4 like controls...

is out wieghed by the greater reliability ... of an M16.

I know you didn't just say that! LOL