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Keith Rogan
January 16, 2000, 11:08 AM
Perhaps some of you recall the long, fascinating (sometimes acrimonious) discussion we had on bear defense pieces and cartridges we had some time ago.
I really enjoyed and learned a lot in that thread, so much that I've totally revamped the "Bears and Bear Maulings" web site. You'll probably recognize some of the commentary from the threads here on TFL in those pages.
This NOT a commercial site, I don't make any money or get any deals from products mentioned in the site.
I'd appreciate any commentary on on the site itself (does it load up fast enough, is the text legible and clear, etc), as well as further commentary on bears, guns or loads.
You can link to the site from the hypertext near my signature and then simply close the window to return to TFL.
Thanks in advance for any commentary.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

.
January 16, 2000, 12:22 PM
Kieth,
I attempted to go to your web page. Nada!!

I'm using an up-to 10Mps cable connection and the site was loading as slow as molassas, then timed out.

I suspect had I been using the ubiquitous 56K modem the results would have been the same.

You may wish to check the page content, as I suspect you have too much graphics and/or sound on it. Consider breaking it down to several pages that follow a heuristic pattern.

Mykl

Gale McMillan
January 16, 2000, 01:38 PM
When I lived in Alaska I felt like my 300 WM was an adequate rifle for bear and had no problem with it but after a couple of years I got to thinking about the stakes and decided I wanted every odd that I could have in my favor so I went to a 35/300 and can say that a 250 grain bullet at 3000 feet per second will give you that added little bit of confidence to soothe the nerves.. I have a friend living in Anchorage that has killed several Browns with a 25/06 and while he is still alive He is living proof we have guardian angels. After stopping the last one within ten feet of him he went to a 340 W. You can't stretch a bear story so far that I won't believe it and have heard some that sound like yours and will say that a gamble with a bear that gives him any odds is foolhardy.

Randy Garrett
January 16, 2000, 02:24 PM
Keith,

I checked out your web site this morning, and it loaded up fast. No problems. Regarding calibers suitable for the big bears, clearly there are many to choose from. However, I have always been impressed with the performance of the 45-70 on those big bruins. Although having a distinctly shorter range potential, most big bears are shot well within the range limitations of the hot loaded 45-70 (200-yds). Also, and this is what I like best about the caliber, it can be deployed with proper hard-cast bullets since the diameter of the bullet is already substantial and no expansion is required. As a consequence of this, penetration far exceeds that produced by any caliber using expanding bullets. The advantages that full body length penetration offers the shooter are great. This issue of penetration is important when the game is as heavy as a big coastal grizzly or Kodiak bear. The ability to drive a large caliber slug from stem to stern is enormously lethal, and tends to put the game on the ground with unusual speed. Also, the ability to fire such rounds from a lever-action carbine increases the gun's utility should the bruin get close to the shooter, and require quick shooting. Most shooters are better able to handle a lever-action carbine under conditions of enormous stress, and in the case of the 45-70 lever-action they are deploying a combination capable of shooting from one end of the bear to the other, with a gun of manageable recoil. When the game is really heavy and dangerous, extreme penetration is a great advantage, and the 45-70 with proper hard-cast bullets provides more than three times the penetration of the best premium expanding bullets fired from the 375 Holland & Holland.
www.garrettcartridges.com (http://www.garrettcartridges.com)

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited January 16, 2000).]

fal308
January 17, 2000, 10:04 AM
Keith
Really like the revamp of the site. It loaded up quickly for me too. The only thing I would have pushed a little more strongly on not feeding the bears and keeping anything resembling food (soap, personal hygiene products, used cooking utensils, etc) out of reach of bruins. Also state somewhere that wild animals are not what you see on the boob tube. Most people think Disney etc portrays the real thing as they've never been in the wild, except maybe a city park.

Keith Rogan
January 17, 2000, 11:59 AM
Mykl,

Xoom was apparently experiencing some kind of problem that has recently cleared up. Its working fine now.

Gale,

I have an 85 year old neighbor and friend who grew up in Ouzinkie village here on Kodiak. From the age of 12 his mother would send him out in the Spring to shoot a bear for the table with his (deceased) fathers only rifle, a .25/35 Winchester. He killed a half dozen brown bears with that rifle until he was 18 or 19 and could afford something bigger. I asked him how in hell one killed a brown bear with such a puny caliber and he explained that you just had to get real close, wait for the bear to face you and then shoot him through the teeth! He was absolutely serious! All of the bears he killed with that rifle were killed with a single shot - it was all he had and he made the most of it because his family depended on the meat until the salmon ran later in the summer. He still has that rifle, theres been no bluing on it for fifty years and it looks like hell but it still functions perfectly and up until a couple years ago it traveled in his car for potting suicidal deer that might cross his path.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

Keith Rogan
January 17, 2000, 12:15 PM
I agree that the .45/70 is certainly the best all-around bear defense cartridge. The ballistics are great, but just as importantly its available in compact, fast-handling rifles like the Marlin GG.

I can't stress the importance of fast handling enough! I've talked to a slew of people who have survived bear attacks and 90% of the time the attack happened VERY fast and totally without warning. One minute you're admiring the scenery and then instantaneously, 1200 pounds of brown bear are launching themselves at you from the alders.

I'm a deer hunter and in this country which is mostly open grassy mountainsides dotted with alder brush you need some range to kill deer. The .45/70 doesn't cut it for deer hunting in these conditions and the standard deer rifles don't have the bullet weight or the compactness for bear defense.
My solution was to order a Remington Model 7 (A very short rifle) in .350 Rem Mag from the Remington Custom Shop. This can push a 250 grain Partition from a 20" barrel to around 2800 fps. The Partition is forgiving enough (I think) to expand on deer and I should get an honest 250-275 yards without holdover. We'll see. I just received this rifle and haven't had opportunity to shoot it yet.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

Keith Rogan
January 17, 2000, 12:18 PM
Fal, I have a whole page devoted to avoiding trouble with bears, but I think you're right - I didn't mention the elementary precaution of cooking away from camp or mentioning the myriad items (like soap) that a bear might view as food.
Thanks for the observation, I'll correct that!



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

Milehi
January 17, 2000, 01:35 PM
I have decided to build a "Brown Bear Rifle", this rifle is a cumulation of advise from experienced bear hunters. The main drawback is the cartridge is a wildcat.
I took my Winchester M70 Classic and had McMillan install a M70 McMillan stock , I then sent it to Heavy Express Magnum to be re-barreled to the .416 HEM with a 22" barrel. It will be Mag-na-Ported to reduce muzzle jump and then sent to Robar and have the barrel and action "Roguard"ed and the bolt and bolt internals "NP3"ed.

The scope will be a Luepold 1.5x5 Vari-X 3, attached with Dave Talley TnT rings and bases and backed up with the Ashley ghost ring iron sight that will fit on the Talley base. This rifle should have plenty of power, I plan on using a 350g Swift A frame.
It should be fairly quick handling and should be impervious to corrosion while on the hunt. If the scope failed or broke in the field the back up iron sight could be installed in less than a minute.
www.heavyexpress.com (http://www.heavyexpress.com)

Keith Rogan
January 17, 2000, 02:14 PM
Milehi,

That really does sound like the perfect brownie rifle!
I especially endorse your choice of a low-end variable and abbreviated barrel. Theres nothing more useless than a heavy 26" barreled rifle with a 4x10 when you're poking through the alders for a wounded bear.

The .350 Rem Mag I've chosen is pretty much a compromise rifle since I'm primarily a deer hunter. Its adequate for deer or big bear but not the best choice for either. I've also got QD rings (Warne) but haven't decided whether to go with a Ghost Ring or just some express sights that fit in the factory slot. I'm going to use a Burris 1.5x5 scope.

An accquaintance from Anchorage who was mauled several years ago now uses a .375 H&H with the barrel cut down to 18" for all his hunting. Its a ratty looking thing but it works.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

Randy Garrett
January 17, 2000, 05:50 PM
Keith, I would agree that if one is deer hunting in areas where long range shooting is likely, that the 45-70 will leave much to be desired. However, if the game is big bear I think the 45-70 deserves more consideration than just as a defensive weapon. The great majority of Alaskan bear guides that I know are pretty adamant about getting their clients as close as possible to those big bears before letting the shots fly. It seems that most of the big bears are shot well inside of 200-yds, generally more like 100-150 yds, (at least when a guide is present) and that range is well within the killing range and trajectory of the 45-70. Interestingly, a 415-grain 45-70 bullet starting out at 1850-fps has as big a Taylor Knockout Value at 130-yds as does a 300-grain bullet from a 375 Holland & Holland measured at the muzzle.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com (http://www.garrettcartridges.com)

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited January 17, 2000).]

Keith Rogan
January 17, 2000, 06:39 PM
Randy,

You're probably right, even with deer in the open country around here, most of the time you're shooting at less than 150 yards. But Murphy says that when you see that really world class one (deer or bear) he'll be walking a ridgeline 300 yards straight up with nothing but naked snow and rock in between.
On the other hand, a guide probably wouldn't let you shoot at that range since he's the dude that'll have to root it out of the alders, wounded and testy, if you screw up. So maybe your .45/70 would be a great choice. I'm a resident and so don't have to use a guide, and assuming I don't lose my mind between now and then I won't take a shot like that unless its pretty good - solid rest, I'm not winded, etc.
Unless you shoot a howitzer of some kind you always have to sacrifice some energy for range. I'll take the extra range (within reason) for hunting and carry the "Hammer Of God" Guide Gun with your 530 grainers for general packing around.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

dZ
January 17, 2000, 09:59 PM
seems like this AR varient could be quite the big bear gun: http://www.leitner-wise.com/lw15_499.html

This highly compact, lightweight and dependable weapon delivers a 400-grain bullet
at a muzzle velocity of 1600 fps for overwhelming terminal ballistics

dZ

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"walk softly and carry a big stick, one that goes bang in .308 is fine"

Keith Rogan
January 18, 2000, 10:12 AM
I think the locals would giggle at anyone toting an AR around. The ballistics sound similar to a .45/70



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

Dr.Rob
January 18, 2000, 01:52 PM
Kieth,

Nice Site upgrade.. you may want to offer more "keeping bears out of camp tips like food storage, how to hang a bear bag, etc"

I like the handling characteristics of the lever gun for heavy brush but I have to say I much prefer a bolt rifle when hunting open country. I've been eyeing a .375 for about a year now and think that will be my next long arm purchase. The 45/70 , while fun and handy just doesn't have the long range reach I'd prefer.

Having said that, while elk hunting most shots are taken between 50 -75 yards.. sometimes closer where I hunt.. I've ofetn felt that a 45-70 would be a great gun for that area (in fact a hunting buddy carries one), but really its OPTICS that make the difference in timber.. PICKING out that kill zone through the trees, etc to make the shot.
But I've also hunted in open country... where 300+ is possible. I think the 45-70 may be too specialized for my needs.

IF I opt for a .375 what load would you recommend for bear? (meaning big bears) Or would you recommend a heavier caliber? (There is damn little on earth you can't kill with a 375 and a well placed shot)

Dr.Rob

Keith Rogan
January 19, 2000, 03:09 PM
Dr. Rob,

I'm certainly no expert on the .375 or hunting loads with that caliber. A good friend and experienced hunter that I know uses Nosler Partitions in I believe, 270 grains to hunt brownies with his .375.

My site and the gun talk on it are devoted almost entirely to defensive arms for bears. In that situation, the heaviest slug you can find (of appropriate design) in the most compact rifle is preferable. 90% of the time I'm in bear country I'm fishing and I tend to think in those terms - what do I want to pack around that gives me the most wallop, is the least weight and is short enough to actually swing and point in the brush along a stream. A Marlin Guide Gun is hassle enough, I can't feature a long action, long barreled rifle in that scenario.

I hunted black bears down in Southeast Alaska last fall and in that heavily timbered country a .45/70 would be the absolute best choice - I think. To get a look at some of those blackies I had to almost burrow through little brush tunnels along feeder creeks and get right on top of bears to see how big they were. Black bears are relatively mild mannered, I don't think I have the huevos to hunt a brown or grizzly like that.

I've talked to guys who have hunted brown bears in that country and the tales are hair-raising! Those brown bears down there are even more aggressive than the Kodiaks in this area, couple that with the fact that you often have to get inside 25 or 30 yards to get a clear shot and trust me, you'd prefer a handy little .45/70 lever gun.

I guess in essence, its a choice of whether you're hunting or just packing protection. And if you're hunting, what kind of country is it?




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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

Keith Rogan
January 19, 2000, 03:22 PM
I forgot to mention that I'm currently talking to a guy about "borrowing" some of his bear avoidance and tactics stuff to use in my site - this gentlemen has some terrific and very well written bear safety talk. He's "unavailable" right now but I think he'll let me use his stuff as long as I credit him - I realize the bear "avoidance" and camp safety page in my site is kind of weak.

If you're thinking of buying a .375, a friend of mine in the firearms industry has a fine Dakota that was used for one bear hunt for sale. He's in the industry and got the rifle at manufacturer cost - well below wholesale and is selling it for what it cost him. He also has lots of brass, dies, slugs, etc that goes with the rifle at no extra cost. I think he wants $1600 for it, which if you've ever priced a Dakota, is a steal. If you're interested, email me and I'll put you in touch with him.


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

dZ
January 19, 2000, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think the locals would giggle at anyone toting an AR around[/quote]

as long as the bears are not giggling at the end of the day, i am happy!

;)

.499, 16 inch barrel mounted on a preban collapsable stocked lower...

woof!
but thats me
i like black rifles

dZ

Jorge
January 19, 2000, 05:12 PM
DZ,
The AR bit sounds interesting, but I think the 45/70 is a bit more powerfull. Check out "Buffalo Big Bore Ammunition" on sixgunner.com.

A 405 grainer at 2000fps...