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BigG
July 26, 1999, 07:42 AM
I was looking at a used 45 marked Sistema Colt 11.25 mm.

The gun appeared to be a very close copy of the US Pistol Model of 1911A1. The fitting and tolerances were beyond reproach. Each part was serially numbered, after the European fashion. The gun was under $300.

I would like an appraisal of its value as a defensive weapon. Are there any shortcomings to this pistol? It appears to me to be equal in every respect to a commercial Colt or a 1911A1.

What would it cost to have this sucker dehorned and reblued? It would make a great carry piece, and not as expensive as one of these new Kimbers or Colts.


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Yankee Doodle

Road Dog
July 26, 1999, 11:37 AM
I think a few weeks ago there was a thread that covered these pistols. I have not had any experience with them but I believe most said they were made on Colt equipment in Argentina and were of good quality. I could be wrong, but you may want to check the previous thread. RD

zot
July 26, 1999, 11:54 AM
you can get a new Springfield 1911 for about
$400, $425. or Colt for about the same, I've
2 Systemas, and a 3 Ballister Molinas, all
nice well worn guns, that all needed new
barrels, chambers were blown out, not cracked just empties were split cause chamber
was over sized, some say the 27s are made
with better metal and are Colts, all parts from a 1911 interchange, but with all my old
pistols they are loose on the frame, alot of use,
alot of abuse. if ya buy new and it breaks theres a good chance for exchange for a new
gun, if the old 27 cracks your stuck with it,
I am the cheapest person when it comes to buying guns, I have put ALOT of money into
these old guns and not one would be reliable
enough to carry for self defense, I have a
new Colt 1991 that I might carry, and my
SpringField 1911 I would carry and feel confident that it would fire every shot, some
gunsmiths will tighten your slide to frame
fit on the 27, could crack though. I beleive
the old guns are fun guns for cans and milk jugs, none of the old guns will hold up to
hot defense loads very long, I even messed up
a new Colt with the .45 Super load,it use to
have a tight frame to slide fit, now it rattles like a piece of junk, beat the frame
pretty bad. from my experience buy new for
self defense, or buy modern.

Walt Sherrill
July 26, 1999, 01:00 PM
The Sistemas are exact duplicates of the 1911 Colt. The Molinas, mentioned in another message, are not, but there is SOME parts interchageability.

A lot of the Sistemas are fine weapons -- but its kinda the luck of the draw. They are made of good quality steel and tend to be a bit heavier than some of the newer ones. That would be an inexpensive way to go to build a quality .45 -- using a GOOD Sistema as a starting point.

If you check Gun List magazine, you'll find them for sale in the $225 - $250 range, and you can get a "handpicked" one for $10-$15 more. You can do worse... (Burns Brothers, I think, have them in the latest issue, and their "hand picks" are, in fact, hand picks.)

(Some of the NEW Colts seem to have quality problems and may not function properly straight out of the box. Older Colts are a class gun.)

James K
July 26, 1999, 01:36 PM
The Argentine Colt copies are pretty good guns. There were also Argentine pistols made by Colt on contract; these are scarce but well worth looking for.

(I would disregard complaints from those who use extreme loads in 70 year old pistols; that is just ignorance at work.)

The Sistema Colt guns did see use, so some may be well used and others nearly new. Most have been refinished which harms the collector value, but does not change the quality as a shooter.

Jim

BigG
July 27, 1999, 08:28 AM
I also believe in staying within the limits of a given caliber, about 16-18,000 psi, if I remember correctly. BigG

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Yankee Doodle

Destructo6
July 28, 1999, 01:42 AM
Gun&Ammo in their, "Big Book of Surplus Military Firearms," (currently on sale) states, "Save for markings, M1927 pistols were almost identical to the US M1911A1s," and were made under liscence from Colt. This was in an article on the Ballester-Molina, the unauthorized 1911 copy.

The coolest pistol in this magazine was the Norwegian-made 1911 copy that has Waffenampt acceptance marks.

zot
July 31, 1999, 12:11 AM
put this near the .40 Super post. and tell
this guy he's ignorant too. if I used a 70
year old pistol that would be dumb, but the
model 1911 has been built in calibers like
10mm and that ain't no wimp in the psi, if
ya count LAR Grizzly then your looking at
.45 mag. I beleive all these cartridges
should be in gas operated multi lug pistols,
I did,nt invent the .45 Super or .40 Corbon,
I just told what happened when I followed instuctions using parts supplied, you can
put a double recoil spring rated 26 LBs
and ramped barrel and you can't reduce the velocity of slide when it slams shut, Buffer
pads only work on recoil. anyone using these
cartridges getting peening of slide at slide
stop?I'll bet slide stop would break after
how many rounds? well I feel better,
another beer please:}

stalo
January 7, 2005, 08:25 AM
Had a sistema colt for about 5 years and I loved it. Took it to range with the occasional ftf, normal as far as I'm concerned. Inexpensive enough to tinker with too. I inheireted the gun from my late step-father so I didn't pay a dime for it. :) . Good price and it's more than a clone, since it was manufactured on Colt machinery brought to Argentina. The first 10,000 were actually made by Colt. There's a website (dont have address on hand, just search) that will give you the date of manufacture by s.n. They were used by their armed forces and their police, indicated by the enscription on the slide. Go to m1911.org and there's a section on foreign military issues, that's where I learned everything about mine. Good luck! :)

Dave Sample
January 7, 2005, 02:20 PM
I used one for a duty weapon on the last Job. Great carry gun as is, but I would not advise spending any money on it. I put night lites, full coverage checkering, took the rails down and had it hard chromed with a satin finish and named it "Evita". I qualified 4 times a year at 100% with it. I like 'em! I did one last year for a cowboy action shooter that he uses in the "Pike" Stage. Went all through it and then had it Parkerized for that WWI look.

BigG
January 7, 2005, 03:47 PM
A FIVE YEAR OLD thread comes back from the grave... :eek:

Just another testament to the inherent goodness of TFL! :D

PsychoSword
January 7, 2005, 04:19 PM
What's with all the digging up of the ancient threads lately. Just start a new one! :rolleyes:

stalo
January 7, 2005, 04:45 PM
Hahahaha!!! I was jumping round forums as I was veiwing archives.Didn't even realize was answering old post. Wonder if original poser is still listening. :o

postal1911
January 7, 2005, 06:42 PM
i kinda like the 1927s myself but i wouldnt pay more than 200$ for them, if that

stalo
January 7, 2005, 08:29 PM
how come no more than 200? Seemed like a pretty solid shootin 1911 to me. It even have a little military history behind it, though not our own army. The only thing I didn't like bout it was the 8 lb pull, but even got used to that. :) I gotta tell ya, it was in alot better shape than the one issued to me by the USMC in 1985. :D. Liked it better than the M9 they gave me later though :(

theberettaman
January 7, 2005, 09:15 PM
Some people wouldn't pay more than $200 dollars for one,Because You Can't Touch One For Less Than $300.That is if you can find someone to even give one up for $300.I bought 6 from JLD about 3 years ago at $295 each.And soon after they ran out and the price jumped on the trader boards by 50%. :D

stalo
January 7, 2005, 09:41 PM
Not to dis the Beretta (see edit above) (I happened to like the M-9, but not for military purposes) but it was a horrible field weapon cause of the way open slide. Used to put it in ziplock in holster just to keep it clean :p

postal1911
January 7, 2005, 11:21 PM
ive had two of them and they are kinda crued, but fun to own at the right price
why not more that $200, cause i dont believe they have anymore value than that.

paying $300 for one is just burnin up $100 for each of your 6 haha
so you found 6 suckers to buy them for 600$??? wow amazing

for just alittle more springfields ww2 series is allot better firearm
:eek:

XavierBreath
January 7, 2005, 11:38 PM
Ah heck, it's a six year old thread........I was going to....... Well shucks, I have the pic up anyway, so here's mine.

http://www.bayourovers.com/FinishedSistema.jpg

My Sistema Project (http://www.geocities.com/xavierbreath2/projectsistema.html)

FWIW, I own a couple of Springers (and a few Colts) as well. This Sistema is my preferred carry gun. I trust it. It's not old, it's work hardened. :D

postal1911
January 7, 2005, 11:53 PM
nice pistol....looks great
how much is the original 1927 though
still nice job

MADISON
January 8, 2005, 10:12 AM
The Argentine .45 ACP Auto and the 1917 revolver are CHEAP Knock-Offs of the quality guns produced in America.

Brian Williams
January 8, 2005, 11:08 AM
It might be a cheap knock off but mine works very well.

liliysdad
January 8, 2005, 11:39 AM
The Argentine .45 ACP Auto and the 1917 revolver are CHEAP Knock-Offs of the quality guns produced in America..

I find this humorous. They ARE Colt 1911s. They are no different that Remington Rand, Singer, or Union Switch 1911s....licensed guns.

stalo
January 8, 2005, 01:15 PM
Even though it's a foreign pistol, I would say it's even more of a Colt cause it was actually set up by colt company people, on colt equipment, and first 10,000 actually made by colt. It just had to be put together by them DAMN feriners :D . I guess there's a sentimental reason I'm stikin up for the gun too, since I inheirited it from my late stepdad. But it still doesn't change the fact that I put several thousand rounds through the weapon with just a few ftf's, less than my service issued weapon. Don't worry all you colt purists, if given the option, I would definitely take the Colt out of patriotic reasons, despite of price, quality, or anythin else. Still my favorite model even though now the closest I have to it is a Llama Minimax 45 wannabe. (tellya bout that after first range trip with that, still havn't picked up from store). :cool:

PsychoSword
January 8, 2005, 03:40 PM
1959 Sistema. Excellent trigger and shoots well. Very reliable, it even likes WWB. As with all old Colts the weak point is the sights. Typically I don't get hammerbite even from spur hammers, but for some reason the WWI blade hammer bites me bad.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11306

stalo
January 8, 2005, 05:34 PM
NICE! Wish I never got rid o mine. Yea, I used to get some bite, as I do and did on my current and past guns. Thinkin of goin to a shootin glove for the after initial set of mag's.

XavierBreath
January 8, 2005, 06:38 PM
The Argentine .45 ACP Auto and the 1917 revolver are CHEAP Knock-Offs of the quality guns produced in America.

Someone on another thread this week said Norinco 1911s had soft steel. They were called cheap knock offs as well.

How do you respond to this? Maybe by bringing up Auto Ordnance or RIA? No, that would be to easy.

Talk about tool steel sears and disconnectors? Try to educate? No, that would be a waste of time.

I tell you what, I'll agree. You're absolutely correct. They are cheap knock offs. If you ever see one for a good price, let me know. I will make certain you don't buy it.

Cacique500
February 11, 2005, 05:57 PM
The Argentine .45 ACP Auto and the 1917 revolver are CHEAP Knock-Offs of the quality guns produced in America. :rolleyes:

Let me know as well...I have 7 of them and love 'em all. If Xavier doesn't buy it, I will!

tulsamal
February 11, 2005, 06:22 PM
I've only got one which I got back when you could get them for less than $300. C&R. Got to love it when the US Mail lady hands you a 1911! Anyway, mine's not for sale.

Gregg

Seraph
February 11, 2005, 09:13 PM
I'd love to get ripped-off by some slick charlatan selling one of these cheap knock-offs with the Argentine Air Force crest.

Dave Sample
February 12, 2005, 12:29 AM
Back in 1927, American made 1911's were about $15.00 in the gun stores or at the hardware store. You couldn't give them away. To say the 1927's are cheap is just not true. and anyone who thinks Norincos are soft, has not worked on one. There is more bad inforamtion on the Internet than good. Someone hears someone at a Gunstore make a comment and all of a sudden, it is the wisdom of the ages. It never ceases to amaze me, so I will just shut up. I am still mad at Algore for inventing it!