View Full Version : How can we get more traffic to this forum?

August 4, 2002, 11:48 AM
I am a class 3 enthusiast. I also like TFL for the wide and varied responses generally received here.

But the full-auto board is next to dead. The only full-auto board that seems somewhat busy is subguns.com and it suffers a lot of problems from flamers and jerks.

Any thoughts about how to drive more traffic to this forum?

August 4, 2002, 12:08 PM
Sure, make full autos more accessible, less expensive.

August 4, 2002, 12:25 PM
Repeal the NFA, and the assult weapons ban and we would be more popular than the handgun board.
Unfortunately, there are not a lot of people able to enjoy the ownership of NFA weapons either because of local legal issues or because of monetary reasons.
I recently purchased a Sten MkII as my first NFA weapon. I found a Sten "list" and subscribed. Sadly, 99% of the stuff on their is not from owners of legal Sten guns, but from people asking how to build up parts kits and how to manufacture reciever tubes. You are right, there isn't a lot around to read on the subject. I am also in the market for a couple supressed weapons. I am finding virtually no good solid information on the subject. I get all kinds of comments like, "I recommed brand X", but no one gives me any reasons why. I appreciate the help, but I want to know the theory behind various designs, which one is better etc. I can't find a source for that kind of information.

The Rock
August 4, 2002, 04:46 PM
Maybe some payoffs? ;)

Title II stuff is fairly restricted. This has caused it not to have the impact that normal stuff has. Really, if you visit gun shows and gun stores, 'real' knowledgable people are few and far between. Most folks to whom I mention or show our Class III stuff too always seem to ask: 'Isn't that illegal?"

FUD really has taken its toll on the NFA stuff.

I make it a point to run by the laws quickly and let folks know that they can get it. I always speak at Club functions and the like. Every little bit helps.


August 4, 2002, 04:46 PM
How many posters here subscribe to Small Arms Review? If all did we might have more to talk about here.
The September issue's theme is "The Guns Of Stalingrad."
Interesting articles on Soviet subguns and carbines.

Truth in Posting Statement: I have done some writing for SAR, but would be reccomending it even if I hadn't.

August 4, 2002, 11:18 PM
Despite the fact that I am under the age to own any firearm, I am highly interested on all firearms topics. I just ran across this forum today. However, I cannot view any posts or threads on the topic because the post organizer thing (for lack of a better term) at the bottom of the page (for setting how far back you can view posts) is not functioning. I tried searching to all available time lengths but to no avail. Can anyone help? While I can't provide you with much valuable knowledge on the F-A topic, I am interested on learning whatever anyone here has to offer. Can anyone (a moderator, perhaps?) help me with this problem so I can view past posts? Thank you!

Nick R.

August 5, 2002, 09:50 AM
I too subscribe to SAR. I find every issue highly fascinating and regularly go back to my library of back issues (all of them back to Vol1 No1) for information of some sort or another. SAR also has a very helpful archive index on their website.
It's about the only magazine for firearmsleft that I subscribe to, besides SWAT, anymore

For some detailed articles on suppressors, check out that index. There are several good technical articles on suppressors. Especially ones written by Al Paulson. SAR is supposed to be publishing the results of their Suppressor Trials, hopefully soon!

August 5, 2002, 03:00 PM
I've been a subscriber of SAR since Machine Gun News folded with my money! The last issue of SAR was tops - the Silencer Issue.

Not looking for a great info site, just one where there is good disucssion and mabe passing along tips to fellow shooters. This site might have traffic given so many have replied to this post! Maybe we just toss out some discussion topics to get this ball rolling?!?!

The Rock
August 5, 2002, 04:29 PM
Hmm. I'll need to do that.

SAR is the cat's pajamas.


August 6, 2002, 12:54 PM
Tell your friends. :)

August 6, 2002, 01:30 PM
Buy everybody on the TFL one of those nice guns and we would all reply to this forum with great thanks!:D

August 6, 2002, 01:53 PM
Hey, now there's an idea! :D

Jamie Young
August 6, 2002, 02:51 PM
If you've hung around here long enough (like I have) you'll noticed that things are still growing at a steady rate. The "Lock and Load forum" was hardly viewed up until about 8 months ago. Now It gets about 10 times as much attention as it did 8 months ago.

Start posting good topics!:) I always check this forum out but don't know enough to start debates. If you've got something to say POST IT!:cool:

August 6, 2002, 04:26 PM
....like it doesn't take me nearly two hours twice a day to go through the "new posts"......:rolleyes:

August 6, 2002, 11:16 PM
I can tell you why I never checked the forum in a year or so (got here today following the G18 thread). It may or may not apply to others.

1. It's my understanding that there's no new product entering the supply stream. There's a fixed number of transferable arms.

2. As a result of (1) prices have gotten whacko - reasonable enough for those that really want the product but a bit outlandish to an "outsider". As example, I'd suspect that there's only about $6.00 worth of parts difference between a Glock 17 and 18 at the manufacturing level. But the 18 doesn't cost 606.00 it evidently costs 15,000.00 - unless there was some good natured ribbin' going on in the G18 thread.

3. If (1) and (2) are correct, there likely won't be much in the way of "new blood". Any hobby that can't attract new members is ultimately doomed. There's a natural reluctance to drop 1,500.00 on a beanie baby that originally sold for 2.29 - ditto 15,000 for a pistol that one "knows" is 14,300 in profit for the guy that "got his". I'd much prefer the pistol to the beanie baby but I doubt the fudiciary watchdogs in my household could discern much of a difference in "perceived value".

I'm not saying the above is fact - in fact, I really, really hope somebody says I'm wrong - after all, I WANT IN. The only reason I'd admit to my (hopefully incorrect) perceptions is that I share these beliefs with a lot of equally uneducated folks that would love to start their NFA paperwork and haunt the forum; and you did ask why we weren't showing up, after all.

Thanks in advance.

August 7, 2002, 01:16 AM
Probably the cheapest way into the world of full-auto is either a MAC-10/11 or a Vector/Group Industries Uzi; figure $1,500-$2,000 for the former or $2,500-$3,000 for the latter if you shop around. (Plus the $200 tax stamp, of course...)

August 7, 2002, 06:30 AM
The bottom end of the full auto market is similar in price or less than a good custom handgun. My Sten was $2250 which was a better than average deal. I saw a suppressed MAC in .380 the other day for $2500. Uzis are a little more than that, maybe $1000-$1500 more than that.
To me, NFA stuff is more about collecting. Buying relatively new, pretty much state of the art stuff is out of the question. You could buy a Harley, or even a new car for what some of this stuff costs; and I am not talking about the real exotic stuff, I am talking stuff like an HK MP5. Don't get me wrong, I would rather have, and would personally buy the HK, long before I bought a Harley; but either one is just another toy.
As luck would have it, I always said that the three machine guns I would like to own are a Sten, an M3 Grease gun, and a Thompson. The first one is doable, the last two, maybe someday. Right now they aren't totally out of the question, but close.

August 7, 2002, 06:42 AM
All that got me thinking, let me re-phrase my last post a little better.
The machine gun segment of our hobby is fairly expensive for those of us who were unable to get into it before now. But when you consider it compared to other common toys or hobbies, machine guns arn't all that bad. As I mentioned in my previous post, you can get into a machine gun for less than a 1911 race gun from one of the big name gunsmiths. For the price of a Harley, you can get into just about any reasonable machine gun you could want. Hell, I work with some guys that have full on race cars. I am not talking about some hooptie with a number painted on the door; I am talking about a real race car that they run in professional races. For that kind of money, you could be shooting a quad 50 or a mini-gun.

August 7, 2002, 03:33 PM
You can get a brand new Vector UZI for $3000. I just got one, along with a .22 and .45 conversion. And I *love* it. Also a new Mac11A1 .380 for $1200 which I don't love, but it is humerous as to how fast it fires. I am glad I have it, but I would hate to have it as my only one. If you can have just one, get a Vector UZI. http://www.vectorarms.com/indexframe.html
No real reason to get the .45 conversion kit. Just makes it harder to shoot (more muzzle rise) and more expensive ammo. The .22 kit works most of the time with certain ammo.

August 7, 2002, 06:09 PM
Only problem is it costs a whole lot more to feed a machinegun that a Harley. About $5 a magazine through my MP5 in just a few seconds.

August 8, 2002, 06:09 AM
Small Arms Review

August 8, 2002, 07:40 AM
Have a weekly posting of women with Class IIIs. This would help increase traffic.:cool:

August 8, 2002, 10:03 AM
There are still some relative bargains in FA guns. If you live in a state that isn't restricted to C&R FA weapons the Stemple 76/45 is available NIB for $1,500 to 1,700 (add a bit more if you want the suppressor.) This looks a bit like a S&W M76 but is in .45. A 9mm conversion kit is available. I would have bought one of these if not for the C&R problem related above.

M760s are going for about $2,200. They are a knock off of the Smith M76, not C&R.

I forgot to mention Reising M50s earlier. The going rate seems to be $2100 to $2500 but a friend round an undermarket deal with several magazines not too long ago. Reisings are also .45 ACP guns and fun. They sometimes need new springs and a few new parts, but after that they work pretty well.

Johnny Guest
August 8, 2002, 01:10 PM
I usually do a run through on this forum about once a week, because, I guess, I am accustomed to there being little traffic. I think back, though, and realize that I personally have only started one or perhaps two threads here. [Note to self: Run a search and check participation.]

So, I resolve to start something--anything-- from time to time.

Johnny Guest

August 8, 2002, 10:06 PM
for the replies - maybe there's hope after all. I'll check out the options. I had actually been all enthused about full auto a while back - something about a select fire Bushmaster Arm pistol that looked like it wanted to follow me home. I'd manage to make room for an IMI Tavor or Bushmaster 17S as well - weakness for bullpups, I guess.

Personally, I'd prefer a full auto that I'd still like if it wasn't full auto - the Tavor comes to mind. I'm sure the Mac 10 and Uzi will start looking better - availability being worth a 4 point bump on a scale of 1 to 10.

My luck in "collectible" markets is legend - I still think I'm personally responsible for the softening in the resto Corvette market; and who else could lose money on real estate? Three times? As a service to the members of TFL, I will stay clear of any weapon that might rely on collectibility to derive any part of its value.


Jamie Young
August 9, 2002, 12:26 AM
This is fun!! I think I've posted about 5 times in the last 24hrs in the forum.:D

I think some of you need to post your experiences with F/A guns so some of us can learn something. I still don't know how the trigger goes from Semi to F/A in most guns.

August 9, 2002, 12:43 AM
Does anyone know of a way to buy single copies of Small Arms Review ? I buy it occasionally. I know of one gun store about 70 miles away that stocks it, and if I remember, I buy a copy at the gun show. I am interested in reading what I think is the current issue; "the suppressor issue".
I drove way out of my way today to go to that gun store that stocks it, and he was closed. I was slightly pissed and decided not to go back. He doesn't have anything else in the store that interests me except that freaking magazine.
The Small Arms Review is OK. Although a lot of stuff in there doesn't interest me at all such as articles on Claymore Mines. I am much more interested in the actual practice of shooting NFA weapons today. It is interesting to read articles about how they were used in some bygone war, but tips on shooting mine would be welcome as would product reviews on stuff I can buy today.

August 9, 2002, 12:47 AM
My local newstand has it. I see it at some big chains, maybe Borders. I just get depressed seeing the prices of C-III compared to a few years ago. I paid lots of money for a few, but I would be more than happy for WalMart to start selling M16s for $599 and have my investment ruined.

August 9, 2002, 07:48 AM
Believe it or not, I used to get Small Arms Review from the Qwik Trip convenience store near my old place of employment. The store was about a block from the county cop shop, and apparently one of the cops had asked 'em to carry it, lor' bless 'im. :D

August 9, 2002, 03:22 PM

You can buy current issues at Barnes & Noble or Tower. Back Issues directly from the SAR website.

August 9, 2002, 04:22 PM
I went to Barnes and Noble today and bought the September issue, but of course the one I want is the August issue. So, I went to their websight and found what I was looking for. Of course it is now after business hours at their location and it is Friday, so I will have to remember to do this on Monday. Typical. I created a shortcut to my desktop hoping that I will see that and it will remind me.

August 9, 2002, 04:53 PM

If I recall, the August issue is the Suppressor Issue - a very good one indeed. If you need, I can xerox you the articles you are interested in.

Even if you don't like all the issues of SAR, at $35/year it does provide a savings from the newstand price and they are delivered to your door every month.

August 9, 2002, 07:42 PM
I am interested in the suppressor info. I am going to buy one or three and wanted to learn what I was doing. If you can scan the suppressor related articles without too much trouble, great, otherwise I will call them on Monday and buy last months issue. No real big deal, I am sure they will have some.

August 12, 2002, 12:22 PM

Sorry no scanner. But willing to xerox and snail mail.

If you want to learn more about suppressors, I highly recommend Al Paulson's books - Silencer: History and Performance, Vol 1 & 2. vol one deals mostly with early, pre 1934 history and suppressors for the 22LR. Vol 2 gets more into centerfire pistol, SMG, assault rifles hi pwer rifles. Great seminole works - a real must have for suppressor afficiandos. Get them from Amazon.com for $35 per vs. the $50 retail.

While the SAR suppressor issue is great, it has more interviews with manufacturers than anything - Paulson's books will teach you much much more.

June 20, 2004, 01:54 PM
Some of the items I have not seen very much of here in this forum are AOWs,SBRs,ans SBSs. Since you have to go through pretty much the same hoops for these types of weapons maybe you need a discussion forum for them also. I myself have a SBR AR-15 that I had all kinds of trouble getting to feed. Finally found that it needed a fix straight off the full auto forum. (pigtail gas tube). So how about some feedback on this subject. Auto ordnance is releasing SBR M-1 Thompsons shortly. At around $1300
they'll be much more available than their full auto brethren.



Johnny Guest
June 20, 2004, 05:23 PM
RoyJ, thanks for reviving this old thread - - It is just as on-topic now as it was when started.

I must take some blame - - I posted my high resolve to start something on the forum from time to time, and then did NOT do so, from AUG 02 through TFL shutdown at the end of that year.

And, now, here I am as forum moderator and have only started a couple of threads. :o

So far as I'm concerned, ANY of the Title Whatsis arms and accessories are on-topic for this board. If it needs BATFE paperwork, go for it. Of, if someone just wants to discuss machine guns or suppressors or cannon or other stuff which cannot even be privately owned, have at it.

AOWs, SBRs, SBSs, rocket launchers, whatever. Let's stop short of telling each other how to do ANYTHING illegal, is all that is required.


June 20, 2004, 05:50 PM
Let's stop short of telling each other how to do ANYTHING illegal, is all that is required.
Most people can figure that one out on their own. :) What is hard is not violating one of the arcane rules of ATF.

Johnny Guest
June 21, 2004, 02:03 PM
Hkmp5sd wrote: Quote:
Let's stop short of telling each other how to do ANYTHING illegal, is all that is required. [end]

Most people can figure that one out on their own. :) What is hard is not violating one of the arcane rules of ATF. I understand what you're saying, and agree to a certain extent. The vast majority of those who have even a passing knowledge of firearms know, at least in the abstract, that there are federal regulations concenring possession/making of - -
-- Short Barrelled rifles and shotguns. (They may be a bit vague as to legal barrel length and overall length . . .)
-- Fully automatic firearms. (And lots of folks are unaware that these CAN be privately owned in most states, IF one jumps through the proper hoops.)
-- Suppressors/Silencers (Ditto)

Given this knowledge, if and when a person decides to explore acquisition of such an item, he/she is contemplating spending some MONEY - - Ranging from respectable amounts for the simplest suppressor + tax stamp, to the price of a nice car. It behooves the buyer to explore the ins and outs of the law as pertains to the hardware. It may take some looking, but it's all on the 'net, or in the law library. Even BATFE is pretty helpful, once you get hold of the right person. I do NOT understand an otherwise intelligent and responsible gun owner who refuses to pick up the phone and place a few calls to make SURE of the law. Do-it-yourself is all very well and good, but the law is just too dang complicated not to seek expert assistance.

As I've said before, and will undoubtedly say again, I do NOT like the way the laws and regulations are set up, and - - But wait, that's a rant for another day. :rolleyes: Anyway, they are what we have to work with, until the law changes. MOST people who actually get in trouble are trying to skirt around or evade the law, for whatever reason. It really isn't worth while, in my estimation.

It is interesting to discuss "modifications" to our guns, and custom gun smithing. But when it extends to making a gun full auto, or silencing the sound it makes, we need to be VERY clear that we're not giving specific instructions on how to break the law. That kind of instruction is available some places, but not on TFL.


June 21, 2004, 10:04 PM
The next time you go into a gunshop and the person behind the counter seems like a knowledgeable person ask them: Where is the closest Class 3 dealer? I would be willing to bet that they will not know. I work in a small gunshop in Ohio and at least once during the time I am in there a customer will make the statement "Oh you can't have that! (subgun suppressor etc.) It really perks them up when you are able to send them to a Class 3 dealer. And It removes the stigma the media has cast upon such things.
Plus it can bring all sorts of good stories from the vets who occasionally come in too. Try it. Can't hurt!

Arizona Fusilier
July 5, 2004, 10:39 PM
to my name, I'm kinda embarassed I've never posted here, given how fond I am of TFL.

I'll try to be more active. But to expound a little on the observation of the "entry price" and "limited seating" that is the nature of this hobby, even if we're "in", we're probaby limited in our first-hand experiences with particular types of weapons.

Still, I'll try to stop by more often.

July 6, 2004, 12:10 AM
Closest class 3 is the neighborhood gun dealer. Kinda arcane in a state like NJ, he was complaining about why he even bothered, he's not going to buy a full auto for 13 grand and have it "just" sitting around gathering dust.

The Rock
September 12, 2004, 04:58 PM
Well, this is certainly a blast from the past. An old thread on what I thought was a dead board.

Now that prices have gone totally insane, I'm kicking myself for not buying more full auto's.

I'm working a deal to buy a bunch of receivers, so I'm thinking a SBR is in the future, as well as a .223 suppressor.

I know where the closest class 3 dealer is - he's me. Well, not really, but I am the Class 3 dude there, so close enough.

(PS, not sure what is scarier, the fact that I remembered my password, or when this thread was originally posted.)

User Name
September 21, 2004, 12:32 AM
Well being new (been lurking for a few weeks and just joined yesterday) I can give you an outsiders or newbies point of view. It was stated earlier how there are trolls and a$$hats posting on the more active FA boards and that just shows the maturity level of some of there members (not to offend anyone, I moderate at a large off-road forum and we have our fair share of trolls and "know it alls" **who don't even own the item in question** that will regurgitate over heard advise as their own and then arguing with members who actualy have real world experience in it! :confused: ). What I have noticed at this site is: while it's true every one has there fav. pistol, or opinions on the best hunting rifle, etc. No-one blast another for their views...indicating that there is a higher maturity level here than most sites...so I think you're finding (as stated by some with "wow look at the response to this thread") that a lot of members and prolly a few lurkers do check out this forum as purely a learning tool. They don't feel compeled to post something they know very little about. Which in my book is a good thing...you don't have to weed through the mumbo-jumbo to get to the facts...
I personaly would LOVE to own a FA...one day when funds permit, I will. I'll prolly try to get a suppressor before then (once again due to funds, it's cheaper :p ).

Kinda like when I was growing up there was a store down the road from my house....a little general country store....and on Sat. morning a fair group of old guys would end up showing up to stand around the stove, drink coffee and BS...as a kid I would sit at the counter within ear shot and let them take me away to foriegn countries, or try to understand the meaning of "cold war" or any number of topics that would end up being thrown out right there in front of that potbellied stove. Now I find myself drinking coffee down at the diner BSing with the guys before work and every now and then one of the guys will have their youngun with them, and I watch their face as they try to stay with the conversation, remembering what it was like for me back then.
So by all means carry on...I'm just gonna hang out over here in this corner, sitting in the shadows and listen to you guys..learn as much as I can and I'll chime in if the need ever arises.

P.S. love the site...wish I'd found it sooner.