View Full Version : D-Boys M14 vs M16

Cain R
April 10, 2002, 12:12 AM
Black Hawk Down. Got the book tape first, then saw the movie, now I'm reading the book. Just finnished the part with one of the D-Boys is getting seriously PO'ed with his M16, seems he...." dosn't like shooting a Sammy 5 or 6 times just to get his attention."
"They used to kid Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle/ammunition and carried a Vietman-era M-14...it occured to Howe as he saw those Sammies keep on running that Randy was the smartest soldier in the unit. His rifle may have been heavier but it damn sure knocked a man down with one bullet..."

Hmm, wonder if I should start looking for a Springfield M14 to go along with that AR I'm getting.:D

April 10, 2002, 12:26 AM
If I were in a town with the entire population shooting at me, I would prefer something along the lines of a German 88mm or one of the guns off of the Iowa.

Seriously, the M1A is a good gun, just a little pricey. Might go back one more version and pick up one of the M1 Garands.

Navy joe
April 10, 2002, 12:31 AM
Own and love both, the .308 will definitely get someone's attention. Problem is so will .223. The BHD comments indicated an ammo failure as in the green-tip didn't fragment or expand, just zipped through. Also a problem that apparently has popped back up in Afghanistan is velocity loss from the short barrelled M4 carbines, the whole 5.56 "light and fast" theory don''t work so well when you take out the fast. One of the stories M-60 gunners noted a similar problem, of course he was firing SLAP(Sabot Light Armor Piercing) rounds, a .223 bullet in a .308 sabot basically. AP ammo is great if your shooting at armor, not skinny underfed bodies in light clothing. The influence of drugs may have been a factor, a lot of those guys were so whacked on Qat/Khat that they were literally feelin' no pain.

And yes, you should start looking for that Springfield.

April 10, 2002, 12:54 AM
One less expensive option I've been looking into is an old FN-49 semi-auto. These are chambered for all kinds of things from 8x57 to 30'06. Ten round mag, good reliability. Not a Garand or M-14, but not as pricey as one, either. Certainly a lot cheaper than an M-14 or M-1A. Mongo knock-down and whoopass power. There's always the FN-FAL option, too, though a lot of people seem to dislike those rifles.

April 10, 2002, 07:29 AM
I'm glad that Navy Joe brought up the incident related in the book about the M-60 gunner. A lot of people leave that out and say the book proves the failure of the 5.56mm. I think that the only thing the book really proves is that nothing handheld will work 100%.

April 10, 2002, 09:14 AM
Yea that one guy with the M14 really stood out.
I know thats what I'd be carrying if I were in his position.

April 10, 2002, 09:19 AM
Yes you need the Springfield. http://springfieldarmory.com/prod-rifles-m1a.shtml#c

Its nice to shoot a rifle that goes BOOM-Ker-Chunk, instead of Snap-Sprongggg-Rattle-Rattle.

Cain R
April 10, 2002, 10:01 AM
Navy Joe is right, it seems it was more of a bullet failure than a calibre failure. From what the rest of the book it sounds like the standard, what is it, 62gr? bullets worked fine. And those poor bugger that caught the 7.62x39 from Ak's really had some nasty wounds.:(

Cavè Canem
April 10, 2002, 11:11 AM
I think I would prefer the AP round in .223. That way I could get the skinny's hiding behind cars and such. Now if the .308 was AP too, then I would prolly opt for that. One of my concerns would be the weight. The D-Boys had some tricked out CAR-15's so they were light and easy to swing on target, cant say the same for the M-14. I guess with a little practice you could swing it around pretty well too.

April 10, 2002, 11:33 AM
I know one thing, if I was in that same situation, I certainly would much rather have been running through Mogadishu with a 6.5 lb M-4 (albeit with a 16" barrel vs. 11.5") than a 11 lb. M-14. From what the book describes, that whole mess was a huge physical ordeal, apart from the wounds they received and the fact that all the soldiers, and especially the Delta Force, were in supreme physical condition. Couple that with the higher mag capacity, lower ammo weight, lower recoil, I think the M-4 is still a great choice. OTOH, I have never been in combat and that might change my thinking.

April 10, 2002, 02:09 PM
Oh come on now. The wounded/KIA rate was about what....about 150 Sammies to 1 US. One M-14 was used in the battle. It's a great rifle, but it ain't magic.

Some variant of the M-16 has been used in every altercation in the last 40 years. It's relative effectiveness has been proven beyond a doubt. No weapon is going to be perfect for every task and every environment.

April 10, 2002, 03:13 PM
I think some of the problem was the ultra short bbls on the Colts. The 5.56 was designed around a 20" tube.

April 10, 2002, 03:34 PM
Not to be contrary, but I've seen that quote from Black Hawk Down used a number of times. The one thing I want to point out is that the passage regarding Shughart was a Delta Force soldier speculating that the M14 would be more effective, not that it was actually having a greater effect in the battle.

Shughart (sadly) was killed and I didn't read any eye-witness accounts of how the M14 performed on the Somalis at all. One would assume it was better, but for all we know against those particular targets the M14 may have had no more effect than the 5.56MM did.

Again, not saying that the 7.62 isn't a more effective man stopper, just that Black Hawk Down doesn't give evidence of that.

Johnny Guest
April 10, 2002, 04:28 PM
. . . a rifle that goes BOOM-Ker-Chunk, instead of Snap-Sprongggg-Rattle-Rattle.
That's very descriptive, BW-- Have you considered a career in Audio FX?;)


Navy joe
April 10, 2002, 04:39 PM
Is there a support group for me? I drop the bolt on my M-1A just to listen to it. Of course I also think my 1911 smells best with a light coat of CLP and some just fired PMC through it, sick in the head I am!

April 10, 2002, 07:19 PM
My favorite is when you're done cleaning and you're re-assembling the trigger group into the stock. The smell of #9 and 7.62 Sweets is thick in the stagnant room air. Sharply slap the trigger guard down..... Briskly cycle the op-rod... And pull the trigger...Smack, Ker-Chunk, Snap. Ready to hit the beach.

That alone is worth the hefty price of the M1A.