Winchester 12g hollow point rifled slugs

Snow Man · October 27, 2001, 10:16 PM

Anyone familiar with them? Particularly what the hollow point looks like on them? The hollow spot in the tip of the slug seems like a joke. It's about 3/16" wide and about 1/8" deep. Will this little amount of hollowness really "encourage" bullet expantion in deer?

I shot a deer last year with a 12g sabot hollow point using my scoped 870 with 24" rifled barrel. 70 yards away. In the end the bullet went right through the deer. Same size entry as exit hole (actually coyotes ate the entry hole, deer walked far and found it next day). Missed all the ribs, no other bones hit. No expansion detectable by looking at the exit hole.

So, will that weinie little "hollow area" really do the job of allowing expansion? Will it hurt anything if I help it out a little by using 1/4" bit and drilling the hollow spot out wider and hardly any deeper? They are 1 oz. slugs and I only drilled out couple grams of lead. Will this change the ballistics enough for me to even notice? Will it affect pressures? Thoughts on the matter?

bullfrog99 · October 27, 2001, 11:18 PM

the hollow point in the winchester slug is , well useless. drilling it out further wouldn't work because the lead is only about a quarter inch thick at the tip. I have dismatled one and cut a hole thru the middle to see the profile. The slug does however still expand but not like you would think. Actually when it hits from what i've seen the expantion is actually the skirt of lead around the bottom catching up with the tip of the bullet an causing it to be wider than before. Basically the bullet flattens out from the rear instead of from the front on a typical handgun bullet. Rifled slugs shoot like crap from rifled barrels from what i've seen, if you have a smoothbore Winchester slugs are great little slugs for small deer or shall we say man sized game, 150lbs they expand rapidly and make a big hole. they will drop em in their tracks with a good hit( I prefer neck shots) , however that hole is not really all that deep. for bigger bucks and lung shots I prefer brenneke slugs. they may cost a bit more but are great penitrators. they work like lbt semi wadcutter hard cast pistol rounds. For your rifled barrel a 600 grain 3" brenneke gold traveling at 1475 fps can and will kill african buffalo. or shoot from front to back through a large whitetail. those are great slugs and recoil is slightly less then you would think, slightly...

Dave McC · October 28, 2001, 07:24 AM

If you're talking about the old Forster style Winchester 1 oz HP, it works very well indeed. Entry and exit wounds are huge, blood trails short and could be tracked from the Space Station.

I've taken a handful of deer with them since 90 or so. One of my slug shooters likes this best, after the KO Brenneke, the other doesn't.

Both expansion and penetration have been good on deer running up to 200 lbs live weight. Some entrance wounds in the shoulder have been three fingers wide, and I've big fingers.

It's also my old duty slug.

I discourage ammo mods done at home. Besides the safety aspect,it may prove to be a prob in court.

Al Thompson · October 28, 2001, 07:31 AM

Some buddies and I used that round hunting on Fort Benning a few years back. LOL - you don't need to do anything but hit the deer in a good spot. It most likely will not shoot good in your rifled barrel though.

I don't know what sabot slugs work well - hopefully one of the more experianced folks will enlighten us.

Ditto the home mods for ammo used in a self-defense mode. Adds a factor you don't need.

Giz

Brent · October 28, 2001, 06:03 PM

"Anyone familiar with them? Particularly what the hollow point looks like on them? The hollow spot in the tip of the slug seems like a joke. It's about 3/16" wide and about 1/8" deep. Will this little amount of hollowness really "encourage" bullet expantion in deer?"

The slugs are hollow in an area that is not visible when viewing an assembled cartridge. If you disasemble the cartridge, you will find that the slug is hollow on the backside, and that the shape of the slug is identical to a sewing thumbnail.

Snow Man · October 29, 2001, 07:33 AM

Thanks to all for the info. I don't remember "Forster" being anywhere on the Winchester box, and it doesn't say that on the cartridge eighter. Last night I almost grabbed the knife to get a closer look see at that slug but didn't (didn't want to mess with the loose powder). Maybe I'll do that tonight. And an entry wound 3 fingers wide? Nelly! Last year's deer had exit wound same size as the slug (sabots). Left a good trail (2 bleed holes). Sounds like I needs to round me up some Breneke's.

What's a sewing thumbnail? Think I have a picture of the slug shape in my mind, but that term's new to me.

The modified slugs I created won't be for Home Defense (unless a deer came romping throught the house

).

Dave McC · October 29, 2001, 08:17 AM

A thimble is used in sewing, the word's a corruption of thumbnail. Think of a cup with parallel sides and a round bottom.Make the bottom thickest in the center. That's it.

Forster did the design and held the patent. I doubt most folks need to know this, but all non Brenneke full bore slugs made in the US are, TTBOMK, Forster style. They replaced the old "Punkin Ball", tho the name carried over in some cases.

Effect can be downright scary. A hunting bud saw me dispatch a herd control doe at about 35 yards with a shoulder shot. Tissue erupted off the deer, he thought I was using some secret LE only ammo with explosives in them. Doe left a very short blood trail, like 30 yards.Left shoulder blade was powdered, right(exit side) broken. Lungs and heart a ugly mess.3 finger wide entry wound.

BTW, that bud uses a NEF single shot w/ scope and sabots for his herd control gun. Quite accurate, tho it's too muzzle heavy for fast work. Recoil is stout. Blood trails run longer, even on heart shots. Call it an average of 50 more yards, hardly crucial in most cases.All slugs work when properly inserted....

Snow Man · October 31, 2001, 07:30 AM

I've got the picture now. Specially after cutting open a cartridge to look at the slug. Yup, they look quite like a thimble. The Butt end fits over my pinkey. So, though they have the "hollow point" name on the package and shell casing, they really are Hollow Butt bullets! Forsters. Now I can see how they would cause a wide entry hole. Like Bullfrog said, on impact the back end of the bullet that is hollow "catches up" with the front so in the end the entry hole is bigger than the original 3/4" wide slug.

So drilling the tip is truely a waste of time. Wonder what those sabbots I shot last year looked like. Federal I think. Zero expansion. Hmmmm.

Shok · November 1, 2001, 04:53 PM

I shot a deer in the head last year. Big hole into head, same size exit hole on other side of head, same size entry hole into spine. Who needs HP?

Shok

October 27, 2001, 10:16 PM	#1
Snow Man Member Join Date: February 26, 2000 Posts: 66	Winchester 12g hollow point rifled slugs Anyone familiar with them? Particularly what the hollow point looks like on them? The hollow spot in the tip of the slug seems like a joke. It's about 3/16" wide and about 1/8" deep. Will this little amount of hollowness really "encourage" bullet expantion in deer? I shot a deer last year with a 12g sabot hollow point using my scoped 870 with 24" rifled barrel. 70 yards away. In the end the bullet went right through the deer. Same size entry as exit hole (actually coyotes ate the entry hole, deer walked far and found it next day). Missed all the ribs, no other bones hit. No expansion detectable by looking at the exit hole. So, will that weinie little "hollow area" really do the job of allowing expansion? Will it hurt anything if I help it out a little by using 1/4" bit and drilling the hollow spot out wider and hardly any deeper? They are 1 oz. slugs and I only drilled out couple grams of lead. Will this change the ballistics enough for me to even notice? Will it affect pressures? Thoughts on the matter? __________________ ...let it snow, let it snow, let it snow!

October 27, 2001, 11:18 PM	#2
bullfrog99 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2000 Location: Southeast Michigan Posts: 811	the hollow point in the winchester slug is , well useless. drilling it out further wouldn't work because the lead is only about a quarter inch thick at the tip. I have dismatled one and cut a hole thru the middle to see the profile. The slug does however still expand but not like you would think. Actually when it hits from what i've seen the expantion is actually the skirt of lead around the bottom catching up with the tip of the bullet an causing it to be wider than before. Basically the bullet flattens out from the rear instead of from the front on a typical handgun bullet. Rifled slugs shoot like crap from rifled barrels from what i've seen, if you have a smoothbore Winchester slugs are great little slugs for small deer or shall we say man sized game, 150lbs they expand rapidly and make a big hole. they will drop em in their tracks with a good hit( I prefer neck shots) , however that hole is not really all that deep. for bigger bucks and lung shots I prefer brenneke slugs. they may cost a bit more but are great penitrators. they work like lbt semi wadcutter hard cast pistol rounds. For your rifled barrel a 600 grain 3" brenneke gold traveling at 1475 fps can and will kill african buffalo. or shoot from front to back through a large whitetail. those are great slugs and recoil is slightly less then you would think, slightly... __________________ Are you a gamer? Try Fortress Forever, It is a free HL2 Mod. http://www.fortress-forever.com/?a=media

October 28, 2001, 07:31 AM	#4
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Some buddies and I used that round hunting on Fort Benning a few years back. LOL - you don't need to do anything but hit the deer in a good spot. It most likely will not shoot good in your rifled barrel though. I don't know what sabot slugs work well - hopefully one of the more experianced folks will enlighten us. Ditto the home mods for ammo used in a self-defense mode. Adds a factor you don't need. Giz __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

October 29, 2001, 07:33 AM	#6
Snow Man Member Join Date: February 26, 2000 Posts: 66	Thanks to all for the info. I don't remember "Forster" being anywhere on the Winchester box, and it doesn't say that on the cartridge eighter. Last night I almost grabbed the knife to get a closer look see at that slug but didn't (didn't want to mess with the loose powder). Maybe I'll do that tonight. And an entry wound 3 fingers wide? Nelly! Last year's deer had exit wound same size as the slug (sabots). Left a good trail (2 bleed holes). Sounds like I needs to round me up some Breneke's. What's a sewing thumbnail? Think I have a picture of the slug shape in my mind, but that term's new to me. The modified slugs I created won't be for Home Defense (unless a deer came romping throught the house ). __________________ ...let it snow, let it snow, let it snow!

October 31, 2001, 07:30 AM	#8
Snow Man Member Join Date: February 26, 2000 Posts: 66	Winchester Hollow Butts! I've got the picture now. Specially after cutting open a cartridge to look at the slug. Yup, they look quite like a thimble. The Butt end fits over my pinkey. So, though they have the "hollow point" name on the package and shell casing, they really are Hollow Butt bullets! Forsters. Now I can see how they would cause a wide entry hole. Like Bullfrog said, on impact the back end of the bullet that is hollow "catches up" with the front so in the end the entry hole is bigger than the original 3/4" wide slug. So drilling the tip is truely a waste of time. Wonder what those sabbots I shot last year looked like. Federal I think. Zero expansion. Hmmmm. __________________ ...let it snow, let it snow, let it snow!

October 28, 2001, 07:24 AM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	If you're talking about the old Forster style Winchester 1 oz HP, it works very well indeed. Entry and exit wounds are huge, blood trails short and could be tracked from the Space Station. I've taken a handful of deer with them since 90 or so. One of my slug shooters likes this best, after the KO Brenneke, the other doesn't. Both expansion and penetration have been good on deer running up to 200 lbs live weight. Some entrance wounds in the shoulder have been three fingers wide, and I've big fingers. It's also my old duty slug. I discourage ammo mods done at home. Besides the safety aspect,it may prove to be a prob in court.

October 28, 2001, 06:03 PM	#5
Brent Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Posts: 143	"Anyone familiar with them? Particularly what the hollow point looks like on them? The hollow spot in the tip of the slug seems like a joke. It's about 3/16" wide and about 1/8" deep. Will this little amount of hollowness really "encourage" bullet expantion in deer?" The slugs are hollow in an area that is not visible when viewing an assembled cartridge. If you disasemble the cartridge, you will find that the slug is hollow on the backside, and that the shape of the slug is identical to a sewing thumbnail.

October 29, 2001, 08:17 AM	#7
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	A thimble is used in sewing, the word's a corruption of thumbnail. Think of a cup with parallel sides and a round bottom.Make the bottom thickest in the center. That's it. Forster did the design and held the patent. I doubt most folks need to know this, but all non Brenneke full bore slugs made in the US are, TTBOMK, Forster style. They replaced the old "Punkin Ball", tho the name carried over in some cases. Effect can be downright scary. A hunting bud saw me dispatch a herd control doe at about 35 yards with a shoulder shot. Tissue erupted off the deer, he thought I was using some secret LE only ammo with explosives in them. Doe left a very short blood trail, like 30 yards.Left shoulder blade was powdered, right(exit side) broken. Lungs and heart a ugly mess.3 finger wide entry wound. BTW, that bud uses a NEF single shot w/ scope and sabots for his herd control gun. Quite accurate, tho it's too muzzle heavy for fast work. Recoil is stout. Blood trails run longer, even on heart shots. Call it an average of 50 more yards, hardly crucial in most cases.All slugs work when properly inserted....

November 1, 2001, 04:53 PM	#9
Shok Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2000 Location: IOWA USA Posts: 204	I shot a deer in the head last year. Big hole into head, same size exit hole on other side of head, same size entry hole into spine. Who needs HP? Shok __________________ "In 1789, when used without any qualifying adjective, 'the militia' referred to all citizens capable of bearing arms." Akhil Reed Amar, Yale University ``If we moms can push 9 pound (4 kg) babies through our bodies, some of them with heads as big as bowling balls, surely we can push [gun control] legislation through the halls of Congress,'' Dees-Thomases MMM founder. "Small arms, too, are weapons of mass destruction," Louise Frechette deputy secretary-general for the U.N. small arms conference