Police armor rifle threat?

bjones870 · July 27, 2011, 02:03 PM

The reason I'm asking this question, is because I might have an opportunity to purchase police armor (bullet proof vest) soon. Will a .223 pierce what police wear? What rounds will it stop? Thanks!

viciouskitty · July 27, 2011, 02:06 PM

If it is just soft armor kevlar for example all it will stop is pistol rounds. Depending on the level it is there level 1, 2 and 3. i have a level 2a vest and it will stop up to 44 magnum rounds. in order to stop a 223 you would need a hard armor plate insert either steel or ceramic.

bjones870 · July 27, 2011, 02:18 PM

Ok, so what level will stop more? Can civilians buy vests and plates? Where would you get them? Thanks for the help!

SHNOMIDO · July 27, 2011, 02:21 PM

I wouldn't count on it. That plate stuff the army uses isnt even 100% foolproof, and its a very small plate that doesnt cover your stomach or shoulders.

Edit- OP posted while i was

different states and municipalities may be different, but for the most part anyone except felons can own body armor. If you can own a gun, you can own body armor.

I've never shopped around for type 4 or ceramic plate vests. I have no idea for fair prices or good deals.

Also- its my impression that a ceramic plate will take one hit, get a crack, and be vastly reduced in effectiveness after that. So it will really only protect you for one shot, directly in the lungs, not from very close ranges, and even then only if youre lucky.

I realize im sounding very pessimistic. Please dont take it that way, I want a vest myself.

SauerJackson · July 27, 2011, 02:39 PM

Rifle armor is extremely expensive!!! I picked up a plate carrier vest just because I was sick of fumbling with mags when doing a run-n-gun course with my buddies! I threw in some pro-tec pistol plates just cuz a little extra never hurt.....

But try checking it out, these are the only cats I know of that don't require dept. credentials. http://bulletproofme.com/

P.S. This is more of a gear related question, so don't be surprised if it is moved of closed shortly

PawPaw · July 27, 2011, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Ok, so what level will stop more? Can civilians buy vests and plates? Where would you get them? Thanks for the help!

Lets take these questions one at a time.

What level will stop more? Generally, the higher the number, the greater the protection. Increased protection comes with increased weight. Linky here for a good chart.

Can civilians buy vests and plates? Sure. If you're not in the military, you're a civilian. Cops buy vests and plates, but generally the agency buys it for them.

Where would I get them? Galls.com That's one place to look. There are other places, like US Cavalry Store but you can Google around and find body armor.

pvt.Long · July 27, 2011, 03:46 PM

nothing is bullet proof. its bullet resistant. The stuff the army wears is not all its cracked up to be. it depends on your level of defense and maneuverability that you need. the EOD bomb suit will stop allot of things. Kevlar is good at defeating pistol rounds. Ceramic plates are designed to handle just a few rounds because of how it defeats the round. When the round hits the plate it cracks absorbing the energy with every crack. From the tests I have seen dragon skin is at the top of protection and great maneuverability. The reason the army doesn't use it officially is because the resin holding the ceramic disks together melt in extreme heat like the desert, and punishes anyone severely if they get caught with it.

Maxem0815 · July 27, 2011, 03:56 PM

.223 Threat level IIIA vest nope goes right through and don't slow down much. To stop a rifle round you need a piece of Titanium Armor, commonly know as a trauma plate, or you Cord buy Dragon Skin. Plane Kevlar stops pistole rounds and not all of them besides if you get hit it's gonna hurt bad.

Mace

bullethole1 · July 27, 2011, 04:01 PM

To the OP: Just curious why you want a BulletProof Vest?

Sturmgewehre · July 27, 2011, 04:21 PM

Quote:

To the OP: Just curious why you want a BulletProof Vest?

Why wouldn't he? I have two chest rigs that carry Threat Level IIIA body armor. They are sold by US PALM and I prefer them to rigs that don't have body armor.

It's like asking someone, "why do you want a firearm?"

Skans · July 27, 2011, 04:37 PM

Some .223 is steel core - I have some Israeli steel core .223. But I believe Wolf is also steel core (mild steel). I don't know if this stuff will penetrate ceramic or steel plates, but it will penetrate all other vests, from what I understand.

Sturmgewehre · July 27, 2011, 04:46 PM

Wolf isn't steel core, it's just bi-metal. Steel core implies an armor penetrator is present in the core whereas a bi-metal bullet has a lead core, mild steel jacket with a copper jacket over the steel one. Bi-metal bullets aren't really any more effective at penetration than standard copper jacketed bullets.

essohbe · July 27, 2011, 09:45 PM

Get a plate carrier and put soft armor under it. I have a IIIa panels in my carrier under the plates. Some people put layers of kevlar over their plates too, to catch spall (the fragments of the metal bullet jacket) from hitting them when struck.

mcdowellbri · July 28, 2011, 03:29 AM

theres alot of factors on what will stop what, to be sure of stoppin a .223 you need a plate, lvl IV is quite expensive but itll take a round (1) of .30-06 standard AP. of course after that the entire plate is going to be basically powder. they even make a lvl 5 now apparently, from what i heard itll eat a .50 round and theres not really much info on it. lvl 4 plate will set you back anywhere from 3-600 depending on material

essohbe · July 28, 2011, 10:08 AM

Yea, the level III plates will withstand multiple shots from a 7.62nato while the level IV is usually rated for only 1 shot of M2 armor piercing.

There is a ceramic level IV I saw rated to stop multiple hits but it's allot of $$$. Realistically, who's going to be shooting at you with armor piercing .30-06? I'd say get III plates and your fine unless you expect some farmer to be popping shots at you with a .300 magnum or somthing.

armsmaster270 · July 28, 2011, 07:32 PM

I could if I needed to, I bought a spam can of 30-06A.P. in M-1 Garand clips a while back just to shoot off.

Technosavant · July 28, 2011, 08:05 PM

In order to stop rifle rounds, stuff gets bulky and heavy fast.

If you can get a good price on a regular vest rated for handgun rounds, that's going to be probably as much as a person would reasonably wear. If you want to stop rifle rounds, I suppose you could get a plate carrier and plates (or just tape the plates to your back if need be

).

Jim243 · July 29, 2011, 03:28 AM

Depending on what they are asking for it, I would say if you are getting a good deal then yes buy it.

The question is not if it will stop a 223 but if it will slow one down to give you a chance to survive depending on where it gets hit.

Look at it this way, will it give you more protection than if your not wearing one? And what are the chances of getting shot with a 223?

Jim

zachkuby87 · July 29, 2011, 06:43 AM

Ok I can't justify any civilian wearing body armor unless you just snitched on someone high up in the crime totem pole. If you do use your weapon in self defenseand kill a bg what are you going to tell the judge or jury when the prosecution says this guy was looking for a fight he was expecting it why else would he wear body armor? Or when you take the stand and they ask you why you were wearing body armor? What do you you say? Ummmm uhhhh ummmm GUILTY... unless your law enforcement or military body armor is just stupid you just look like either a mall ninja or someone who's out asking for a fight. And I bet any body armor you buy planning to stop rifle bullets will be plenty bulky for the bad guy to see in which case he just takes a head shot. U gonna go buy a military kevlar helmet and add armor to that too? Cmon now that's just stupid. Then the police will see you, arrest you and have you sent somewhere for a psychiatric review. Cause I know damn well I don't want regular ccw permit holders walking around my nieghborhood with big ass vests on its just ridiculous. Only time body armor is really going to benefit you is at a time of war and there are no wars right now and if the war ever made it to you there will be plenty of bodies to take the body armor from.

Jim243 · July 29, 2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

unless your law enforcement or military body armor is just stupid

Zack, I have to disagree with your assesment. You have been watching too much TV. Most body armor is worn underneath street clothes in the USA and it is the thickness of a heavy T-Shirt. Working in bad areas is the number one reason for wearing it, both by police and civilians. If you work a 7-11, gas station or liquor store would be an excellent reason as well as if you work in areas populated by drug dealers. I live in Chicago and there are over 365 killings from firearms each year here as well as 10,000 firearms confiscated from criminals each year by the CPD, sounds like a good reason to me.

Jim

http://www.safeguardclothing.com/15-...FRHGKgod4x6ZXQ

zachkuby87 · July 29, 2011, 01:00 PM

Ok I live in st paul in probably one of the worst neighborhoods in minnesota and I frequent chicago at least 2 times a month over the weekends and its really not that serious yes people do get killed a lot but 95% of the time people who are being shot are the drug dealers gangbangers and police so I don't wanna hear that in bad areas u have to wear a vest garbage. And a gas station 50 feet from my house was robbed at gunpoint 3 days ago that still doesn't make me wanna buy a vest.. its pointless unless you have a reason to b worried about getting shot at a single firearm will suffice just fine. So ok ill refrase that if u are a cop military a drug dealer prostitute or gas station clerk in a bad area u should look into it otherwise its a pure waste of time and money... if u feel that endangered its time to move and or find a new proffesion or seek mental help

BarryLee · July 29, 2011, 03:20 PM

I am by no means an expert, but I believe Kevlar vests wear out, so if these are used that may be why they are selling them. It is my understanding that all vests are required to have an expiration date and are supposed to be replaced after that date. Now, I suppose they might still work fine and would probably be better than nothing, but just something to consider.

smoakingun · July 30, 2011, 09:21 AM

zachkuby87. let me give you an actual event from an incident here in jacksonville where a vest saved a life. Two phone men, guys I work with, were working a job at around 1 am. the two were working about two hundred yards apart. Tech B had left his trailer to go down to the trailer of tech A. When he returned to his trailer, he was aproached from behind by a man who put a gun in his back. The crook demanded his wallet, wich tech B imediately gave him. The bad guy inspected the wallet, and when he found only 7 dollars, demanded more. Tech B told him there was more in the truck, and led the criminal to the cab. When tech B handed the crook his bag, he made a grab for the gun. in the struggle, the gun discharged, crook broke off the fight and ran, tech B hit the floor, wind knocked out of him, but alive because of the level 2 vest he was wearing.

chadstrickland · July 30, 2011, 09:50 AM

Body armor is purely a defensive tool. I find it hard comprehend why someone is saying that if you feel the need to where it then you need to move or seek mental help, especially since 99 percent of the members on this forum carry firearms which can be used for offense or defense purposes. If someone feels the need to carry a gun why is it so wrong for them to use body armor as well?

viciouskitty · July 30, 2011, 02:06 PM

If you want body armor why not get some. I personally have a plate carrier for run and gunning and doing tactical/3 gun type drills and since my dad who is in law enforcement had an extra vest laying around I installed the plates in my plate carrier just for fun and just in case. If you got the money why not, its a free country and you never know when you may need it.

July 27, 2011, 02:03 PM	#1
bjones870 Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2011 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 140	Police armor rifle threat? The reason I'm asking this question, is because I might have an opportunity to purchase police armor (bullet proof vest) soon. Will a .223 pierce what police wear? What rounds will it stop? Thanks! __________________ Our founding fathers started a revolution, for less bull [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] than this. To be ready, mentally and physically for what ever scenario arises, provides the best sleep at night I've ever gotten.

July 27, 2011, 02:18 PM	#3
bjones870 Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2011 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 140	Ok, so what level will stop more? Can civilians buy vests and plates? Where would you get them? Thanks for the help! __________________ Our founding fathers started a revolution, for less bull [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] than this. To be ready, mentally and physically for what ever scenario arises, provides the best sleep at night I've ever gotten.

July 27, 2011, 02:21 PM	#4
SHNOMIDO Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 423	I wouldn't count on it. That plate stuff the army uses isnt even 100% foolproof, and its a very small plate that doesnt cover your stomach or shoulders. Edit- OP posted while i was different states and municipalities may be different, but for the most part anyone except felons can own body armor. If you can own a gun, you can own body armor. I've never shopped around for type 4 or ceramic plate vests. I have no idea for fair prices or good deals. Also- its my impression that a ceramic plate will take one hit, get a crack, and be vastly reduced in effectiveness after that. So it will really only protect you for one shot, directly in the lungs, not from very close ranges, and even then only if youre lucky. I realize im sounding very pessimistic. Please dont take it that way, I want a vest myself. Last edited by SHNOMIDO; July 27, 2011 at 02:27 PM.

July 27, 2011, 04:46 PM	#12
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	Wolf isn't steel core, it's just bi-metal. Steel core implies an armor penetrator is present in the core whereas a bi-metal bullet has a lead core, mild steel jacket with a copper jacket over the steel one. Bi-metal bullets aren't really any more effective at penetration than standard copper jacketed bullets. __________________ Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more. Ex Mea Sententia

July 28, 2011, 07:32 PM	#16
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	I could if I needed to, I bought a spam can of 30-06A.P. in M-1 Garand clips a while back just to shoot off. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

July 27, 2011, 02:06 PM	#2
viciouskitty Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2010 Location: South Texas Posts: 316	If it is just soft armor kevlar for example all it will stop is pistol rounds. Depending on the level it is there level 1, 2 and 3. i have a level 2a vest and it will stop up to 44 magnum rounds. in order to stop a 223 you would need a hard armor plate insert either steel or ceramic.

July 27, 2011, 02:39 PM	#5
SauerJackson Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2011 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 119	Rifle armor is extremely expensive!!! I picked up a plate carrier vest just because I was sick of fumbling with mags when doing a run-n-gun course with my buddies! I threw in some pro-tec pistol plates just cuz a little extra never hurt..... But try checking it out, these are the only cats I know of that don't require dept. credentials. http://bulletproofme.com/ P.S. This is more of a gear related question, so don't be surprised if it is moved of closed shortly

July 27, 2011, 03:46 PM	#7
pvt.Long Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Posts: 433	nothing is bullet proof. its bullet resistant. The stuff the army wears is not all its cracked up to be. it depends on your level of defense and maneuverability that you need. the EOD bomb suit will stop allot of things. Kevlar is good at defeating pistol rounds. Ceramic plates are designed to handle just a few rounds because of how it defeats the round. When the round hits the plate it cracks absorbing the energy with every crack. From the tests I have seen dragon skin is at the top of protection and great maneuverability. The reason the army doesn't use it officially is because the resin holding the ceramic disks together melt in extreme heat like the desert, and punishes anyone severely if they get caught with it.

July 27, 2011, 03:56 PM	#8
Maxem0815 Junior member Join Date: May 23, 2011 Posts: 216	.223 Threat level IIIA vest nope goes right through and don't slow down much. To stop a rifle round you need a piece of Titanium Armor, commonly know as a trauma plate, or you Cord buy Dragon Skin. Plane Kevlar stops pistole rounds and not all of them besides if you get hit it's gonna hurt bad. Mace

July 27, 2011, 04:01 PM	#9
bullethole1 Junior member Join Date: June 8, 2011 Location: San Antonio , Texas Posts: 253	To the OP: Just curious why you want a BulletProof Vest?

July 27, 2011, 04:37 PM	#11
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Some .223 is steel core - I have some Israeli steel core .223. But I believe Wolf is also steel core (mild steel). I don't know if this stuff will penetrate ceramic or steel plates, but it will penetrate all other vests, from what I understand.

July 27, 2011, 09:45 PM	#13
essohbe Junior member Join Date: March 22, 2009 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 817	Get a plate carrier and put soft armor under it. I have a IIIa panels in my carrier under the plates. Some people put layers of kevlar over their plates too, to catch spall (the fragments of the metal bullet jacket) from hitting them when struck.

July 28, 2011, 03:29 AM	#14
mcdowellbri Junior Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Posts: 13	theres alot of factors on what will stop what, to be sure of stoppin a .223 you need a plate, lvl IV is quite expensive but itll take a round (1) of .30-06 standard AP. of course after that the entire plate is going to be basically powder. they even make a lvl 5 now apparently, from what i heard itll eat a .50 round and theres not really much info on it. lvl 4 plate will set you back anywhere from 3-600 depending on material

July 28, 2011, 10:08 AM	#15
essohbe Junior member Join Date: March 22, 2009 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 817	Yea, the level III plates will withstand multiple shots from a 7.62nato while the level IV is usually rated for only 1 shot of M2 armor piercing. There is a ceramic level IV I saw rated to stop multiple hits but it's allot of $$$. Realistically, who's going to be shooting at you with armor piercing .30-06? I'd say get III plates and your fine unless you expect some farmer to be popping shots at you with a .300 magnum or somthing.

July 28, 2011, 08:05 PM	#17
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	In order to stop rifle rounds, stuff gets bulky and heavy fast. If you can get a good price on a regular vest rated for handgun rounds, that's going to be probably as much as a person would reasonably wear. If you want to stop rifle rounds, I suppose you could get a plate carrier and plates (or just tape the plates to your back if need be ).

July 29, 2011, 03:28 AM	#18
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Depending on what they are asking for it, I would say if you are getting a good deal then yes buy it. The question is not if it will stop a 223 but if it will slow one down to give you a chance to survive depending on where it gets hit. Look at it this way, will it give you more protection than if your not wearing one? And what are the chances of getting shot with a 223? Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum Last edited by Jim243; July 29, 2011 at 03:39 AM.

July 29, 2011, 06:43 AM	#19
zachkuby87 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2010 Location: st paul mn Posts: 190	um Ok I can't justify any civilian wearing body armor unless you just snitched on someone high up in the crime totem pole. If you do use your weapon in self defenseand kill a bg what are you going to tell the judge or jury when the prosecution says this guy was looking for a fight he was expecting it why else would he wear body armor? Or when you take the stand and they ask you why you were wearing body armor? What do you you say? Ummmm uhhhh ummmm GUILTY... unless your law enforcement or military body armor is just stupid you just look like either a mall ninja or someone who's out asking for a fight. And I bet any body armor you buy planning to stop rifle bullets will be plenty bulky for the bad guy to see in which case he just takes a head shot. U gonna go buy a military kevlar helmet and add armor to that too? Cmon now that's just stupid. Then the police will see you, arrest you and have you sent somewhere for a psychiatric review. Cause I know damn well I don't want regular ccw permit holders walking around my nieghborhood with big ass vests on its just ridiculous. Only time body armor is really going to benefit you is at a time of war and there are no wars right now and if the war ever made it to you there will be plenty of bodies to take the body armor from.

July 29, 2011, 01:00 PM	#21
zachkuby87 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2010 Location: st paul mn Posts: 190	Ok I live in st paul in probably one of the worst neighborhoods in minnesota and I frequent chicago at least 2 times a month over the weekends and its really not that serious yes people do get killed a lot but 95% of the time people who are being shot are the drug dealers gangbangers and police so I don't wanna hear that in bad areas u have to wear a vest garbage. And a gas station 50 feet from my house was robbed at gunpoint 3 days ago that still doesn't make me wanna buy a vest.. its pointless unless you have a reason to b worried about getting shot at a single firearm will suffice just fine. So ok ill refrase that if u are a cop military a drug dealer prostitute or gas station clerk in a bad area u should look into it otherwise its a pure waste of time and money... if u feel that endangered its time to move and or find a new proffesion or seek mental help

July 29, 2011, 03:20 PM	#22
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	I am by no means an expert, but I believe Kevlar vests wear out, so if these are used that may be why they are selling them. It is my understanding that all vests are required to have an expiration date and are supposed to be replaced after that date. Now, I suppose they might still work fine and would probably be better than nothing, but just something to consider. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

July 30, 2011, 09:21 AM	#23
smoakingun Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Location: melrose, fl Posts: 634	zachkuby87. let me give you an actual event from an incident here in jacksonville where a vest saved a life. Two phone men, guys I work with, were working a job at around 1 am. the two were working about two hundred yards apart. Tech B had left his trailer to go down to the trailer of tech A. When he returned to his trailer, he was aproached from behind by a man who put a gun in his back. The crook demanded his wallet, wich tech B imediately gave him. The bad guy inspected the wallet, and when he found only 7 dollars, demanded more. Tech B told him there was more in the truck, and led the criminal to the cab. When tech B handed the crook his bag, he made a grab for the gun. in the struggle, the gun discharged, crook broke off the fight and ran, tech B hit the floor, wind knocked out of him, but alive because of the level 2 vest he was wearing. __________________ Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.

July 30, 2011, 09:50 AM	#24
chadstrickland Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2011 Location: alabama Posts: 537	Body armor is purely a defensive tool. I find it hard comprehend why someone is saying that if you feel the need to where it then you need to move or seek mental help, especially since 99 percent of the members on this forum carry firearms which can be used for offense or defense purposes. If someone feels the need to carry a gun why is it so wrong for them to use body armor as well? __________________ Two weapons that was designed by the same man still in use by the us military 100 years later...1911 and m2...is there anything that comes close.....lol annd maybe perhaps a sig sauer p226 tac ops edition..

July 30, 2011, 02:06 PM	#25
viciouskitty Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2010 Location: South Texas Posts: 316	If you want body armor why not get some. I personally have a plate carrier for run and gunning and doing tactical/3 gun type drills and since my dad who is in law enforcement had an extra vest laying around I installed the plates in my plate carrier just for fun and just in case. If you got the money why not, its a free country and you never know when you may need it.

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