Scenario Question

[Ishyid]

I live in a area where there are a lot of dogs. A lot of smaller areas or town where its low income and super low income with a lot of people with highly aggresive breeds of dogs (pit bulls). And they were raised and coxed to be aggressive. I have a golden retreiver. She is the biggest whimp ever. She has and would never show a tooth to any person or dog. In the past I have been out takeing her on a walk when other aggressive breed dogs have come up and tryed to start things by growling and snapping in our direction. Here are the scenarios. What would happen if this happened and what would the police do and what would become of you.

Scenario 1: You are out on a nice evening walk with your non aggresive pooch. As you round a corner you see a pitbull. Its sniffing around and it hasnt seen you yet. Ounce it sees you it trots at a fast speed to you within 25 feet stops looks at you and your dog that you are walking. Then slowly closes in teeth baring in a fearful threatening way. You are worried most of all feared for your own pooch. You are conceal carrying What would you do?
If not draw and shoot at that time at what point would you, if there is one.

Scenario 2: You are in a local dog park walking your dog, with the leash on, and a pit bull approaches sniffs your dog and then snapps at her neck. The owner is present and doesnt seem to care that their dog is trying to fight mine. What would you do?

-With the above scenario what would you do if the owner was present and was trying to control their dog but it wasnt responding to her commands?


I write both these scenarios comeing from real life encounters i have had. But at that time i didnt own a hand gun.

Any advice and feed back will be greatly appreceiated.

Thanks
-Joshua

[billnourse]

I might get smacked around for this, but having seen the damage viscious dogs can do, I would consider one no different than a human threat. If you have reason to fear for your person you would be within your rights to take what ever action necessary to protect you and yours.

If you take action, you are going to be required to prove that you were actually in fear of great bodily harm for either you or your dog.

Most places that have any population at all have some kind of leash laws, so If the animal in question is loose, there is already a violation before any attack or threatened attack occurs.

In the state where I live, a dog chasing livestock is fair game and I have shot numerous dogs that were harrassing stock.

Bill

[Amin Parker]

I would say either take your dog elsewhere to avoid trouble or take a drive through the route you wish to walk your dog. Make a note of aggressive dogs and their addresses if they are not confined as they should be and inform the authorities.

South African law allows a gun owner to shoot an aggressive dog if its owner is not present, or if the owner does not restrain the animal. No one wants it to get to that point but if you have to, you have to. You cant simply stand there while you and your pet are torn apart.

My experience is that should you ever have to kill an aggressive dog, you gonna have to deal with an aggressive owner and his aggressive neighbours. Its best to just avoid the whole thing altogether.

[kraigwy]

This is a question you should run by your local prosecutor or DA.

The reason I say this is each area is different. I know here in Wyoming the answer is simple, if you or your pets are threatened, Shoot 'em.

That's not the case in Portland where my kids live. Those people are different when it comes to injuring dogs no matter the reason.

In this case I doubt I'd take advise from the Internet. we wont be there to bail you out if things go south.

Talk to your prosecutor or DA and get their rulings, they would be the ones who drag you through court.

[NESHOOTER]

Hum, get some pepperspray or taser, no need for you to become the Newest CCW person to undergo the court system.... save $$$$$ and a possible threat from another person (you don't know if he/she is carrying and want to even the score on you and your dog) sad safe places are becoming less and less.

[gearhounds]

I agree, arm yourself with knowledge, and document everything to protect yourself. I'm lucky enough to have a nice, quiet, problem free neighborhood with a very low population density, so I know what I would do if my 4 legged family member was in danger, and by proxy, myself. In a high population density area, obviously, rounds fired+ Murphy's law= trouble no matter how you slice it. If the local DA/LE gives you the go ahead to act (document!) it doesn't mean things can't go wrong. I really hate to see good people run out by toads, but if it's weighing heavily on you, change your tactics and avoid the problem areas in question. If you have to shoot (ie- I am in fear of bodily harm or death), shoot well and with common sense.

The dog park scenario is tricky; dogs are highly social animals, and a newcomer is subject to a feeling out for it's place in the pecking order, and a "snap", could be only for show. Unfortunately, in that environment, it can be difficult to tell that from true attack behavior. Again, if it makes you uncomfortable, and this is an unmonitored park as most seem to be, leaving may be the best option.

[45Gunner]

The best solution to problems that you present is to avoid being in that situation in the first place. I don't think it makes much of a difference in which state you reside in, if you are in a populated area, regardless of its socio-economic status, you are going to have a lot of questions thrown at you as soon as you draw and shoot your gun. Most of those questions would probably best be answered with the advice of an attorney. My attorney charges $300 per hour which is really not that expensive when it comes to specialty attorneys.

Avoid the situation and save your money. However, if your life or the life of another being is in immanent danger, you have a right to protect your life with deadly force. The same questions will be asked and you will probably need the same attorney.

[Glenn Dee]

In my opinion...
If you use deadly physical force to protect your dog you will probably be arrested, and possibly spend some time in jail or prison. Unless of course your state provides for the use of DPF (deadly physical force) to protect personal property.

Despite being our best friends, and providing unconditional love... Pets are property. Sadly your dog has no rights. Your dog as cute as it may be, Is not worth the risk of a person being injured by your using DPF.

Anyway... thats just my opinion...

Glenn

[Daryl]

Better check your state laws. You might be cited in either case if you shoot, or could be arrested; or, you might very well be legal. Depends on your state's laws.

In my state, I'd shoot if and when I felt threatened. I don't know the intentions of an agressive dog, so I might very well assume it's being agressive towards me.

I drew my carry gun twice on the same pit bull early last year. The first time the dog was acting agressive towards me, and I was holding my handgun with the dog literally 12-14 inches from my front sight. I didn't fire, and the dog finally turned and went out my gate.

The second time was when it got after my wife's miniature aussie. I managed to get my truck's door open, and the aussie jumped in. I didn't have time, so turned and drew. This time the dog stayed back about 20 feet, but circled me...assumably trying to find a better angle to attack. I finally ran at it yelling, with pistol in hand, and it took off out the gate.

In either case I'd have been justified in killing it, but chose not to. I called animal control, and the owner was cited for the 2nd offense for dog roaming on private property. I told the officers I'd not press charges for the more serious offense involved with an agressive dog on one condition: They were to tell the owner that if the dog came back on my property again, I'd shoot it on sight. No questions, and no answers; I'd simply shoot it and bury it.

The guy must have understood, because he chained the dog inside of his fenced yard, and moved away about a month later.

I love dogs, but I'll only put of with a problem dog for so long.

Daryl

[John Eastwood]

Sticky situation. I was ALMOST attacked by two dogs about 6 months ago while running. They backed me up all the way into the middle of a double-yellow country road and I had nothing on but my running shoes and shorts; no shirt. Teeth showing/circling me/the whole deal. I had nowhere to go. You bet your ass if the G-19 was on my body they were recieving some of Hornady's Critical Defense...but I didn't have it on me.

A passerby slowed down just enough for me to jump into the back of his truck and he took me to my house. I had ran for 3 miles with no issues; then 300 yards from my house, these dogs I'd never seen before came outta nowhere and had me by the balls.

In retrospect, I now run with pepperspray. That situation was a little too close for comfort. I personally don't want to deal with shooting anyone's dogs with a gun, whether it be in self-defense or not and I will tell ya why.

I say this because it wasn't a month later that a similar situation happened with my neighbor concerning the same 2 dogs. He shot one of them 3 times with a .22 because they were attacking his dog in his yard.

The damn dog lived and they showed it on the evening news. He of course is now labeled the butthole of the community, even though he was not charged. He was well within his rights. Anything dog-related seems to be worse than shooting a human-being these days; especially when the situation occurs right in your backyard. Dog may be dead, but you have to deal with your neighbors whose dog you shot from there on out.

In summary: I don't need that drama. Pepperspray for me as far as dog threats go.

[Dwight55]

A lady I knew years ago had a stable of the most beautiful Norwegian Elkhounds one could imagine.

She also carried on her person a plastic bottle of ammonia water (I'm thinking about 50/50) and a rag. First hint of a problem, . . . out comes the rag and bottle, . . . squirt it on the rag, . . . throw it on the agressor, . . . end of problem.

NO, . . . I never used it, . . . but she swore by it. If I were walking my dog in an area she could be attacked, . . . I would have this and my 1911. If the ammonia didn't work, . . . I'm not standing by and watching my dog get turned into a chew toy for some mongrel that has no manners. I'll deal with the owner and the law later.

May God bless,
Dwight

[huntinaz]

Despite being our best friends, and providing unconditional love... Pets are property. Sadly your dog has no rights. Your dog as cute as it may be, Is not worth the risk of a person being injured by your using DPF.

Anyway... thats just my opinion...

Mine too. The risk of shooting a dog is just not worth hurting somebody in the neighborhood. If you feel you are at significant risk of being attacked by aggressive dogs either walk somewhere else or get some pepper spray.

Scenario 2: You are in a local dog park walking your dog, with the leash on, and a pit bull approaches sniffs your dog and then snapps at her neck. The owner is present and doesnt seem to care that their dog is trying to fight mine. What would you do?

I'd probably kick it in the face, since I don't have pepper spray. If this was a common occurrence in my neighborhood then I would get pepper spray and that dog would get a face full of it, and a boot to the face. What I would NOT do is pull a pistol on a dog, in a public dog park, that isn't attacking a human.

[Yung.gunr]

I agree to check with LE in the area. But.... call in and ask and don't leave your name.
I disagree to avoid the area because from what you are saying it is all around you so you will have to confront it.
I would say to have a walking buddy with you man the pepper spray/taser and you have your hand on/near your gun. Get it ready to go in case the pepper spray/taser does not deter.

Who cares what people think of you because if a vicious dog is going to tear up your dog then you will be next.

I think if you end up spraying or tasing a dog then their owner will take better care to control their animal next time.

IMHO don't be the pacifist in this situation as it could cost you and/or your dog
your lives.

PS. As a previous pit owner/lover thank you for pointing out that their owners encouraged that behavior. My pit was a pussycat, he was a 95 pound monster who only wanted to sit on your lap and you pet him. But, I do know that they can tear some s*** up so be careful around them and don't underestimate their abilities/strength.

[Bud Helms]

T&T.

Moving ...

[sdw1961]

WOW! As a dog lover I'd have to say protect yourself and your dog, but I don't know the laws where you are. Where I am nothing would come of it except maybe a civil suit. We did have a shelter shut down today because of shooting dogs instead of euthanizing them though.
As I said I'm a big time dog lover, but in a situation like this I'd choose to protect myself and my baby....but then again I have no right to talk because I'm scared of guns. I think the irresponsible dog owners as well as the severly aggressive dogs should be taken care of for allowing/making there dogs behave in such a manner.

[Powderman]

The Revised Code of Washington provides:

"It shall be lawful for any person who shall see any dog or dogs chasing, biting, injuring or killing any sheep, swine or other domestic animal, including poultry, belonging to such person, on any real property owned or leased by, or under the control of, such person, or on any public highway, to kill such dog or dogs, and it shall be the duty of the owner or keeper of any dog or dogs so found chasing, biting or injuring any domestic animal, including poultry, upon being notified of that fact by the owner of such domestic animals or poultry, to thereafter keep such dog or dogs in leash or confined upon the premises of the owner or keeper thereof, and in case any such owner or keeper of a dog or dogs shall fail or neglect to comply with the provisions of this section, it shall be lawful for the owner of such domestic animals or poultry to kill such dog or dogs found running at large."

---Revised Code of Washington (RCW) 16.08.020

This being noted, it would be wise to give a call to (in your case) the prosecutor's office for the City of Bonney Lake, as well as the prosecutor for Pierce County to receive their definitive answers. These are the persons you will have to explain your actions to.

[PIGMAN]

Carry a cannister of bear repellant.This will keep you out of serious legal problems.

[BfloBill]

In the first scenario (loose dog) I would say you would be justified in shooting, in the scenariowhere the owner is trying to stop the dog I would say no, in the scenario where the owner is doing nothing to stop your dog in my mind that is the same as encouraging it to attack, so we are back to yes.

But I am not a Lawyer or Prosecutor in your state.

Also, AminParker was the first to bring up a point you should not ignore, if someone is deliberately breeding over-aggressive dogs they are probably fighting them and their owners are most likely agressive themselves. You don't want to put yourself in a position where you have to worry about retribution.

I think spray would probably be the best option for your situation, with firearm as a last resort.

[8shot357]

I just ask, why to people want a Pit-Bull?

[markj]

I just ask, why to people want a Pit-Bull?

They once were Americas dog, bad breeding practises and egos have ruined this breed. There are still a few raise the real deal but few are able to purchase them.

In the scenarios posted, if you know this may happen then run on down to your local Tractor Supply and get a 5 foot cattle prod. I bit a dog once with one and he run off, havent seen him since he is probably still running.

Or avoid the areas. Every dog park I know of hass rules against vicious dogs and anyone has one should have it on a muzzle or be in violation of the law.

Find a nice public area outside of the city you live in and walk the dog there. Your local DNR should have maps of public areas away from the city.

[sdw1961]

8shot357 I don't think I have the capability to quote on here, but to try and answer your question "Why a Pit-Bull?" markj is right the Pit-Bull is an American Breed. If raised properly they are an excellent pet that strongly desires to please it's master. It is irresponsible owners that give the dogs a bad reputation. It is not a Breed for everyone. It is very loyal and has the uncanny ability to know when to protect it's Master and the Master's property. If raised properly with little training and a lot of exercise it is very intelligent and friendly. It's the people that make these dogs bad. They really can be a great Pet I promise you. And markj...a cattle prod is an excellent idea!

[glassguy]

When I was a kid we used to have some nasty dogs in our neighborhood. A squirt gun filled with ammonia will change a dog's attitude NOW! They also remembered me next time we met and gave way.

[Shootin Chef]

I never understand some of the responses to these questions.

Walk somewhere else?
Why? You have just as much right to walk down the sidewalk or through a park un-harassed as the next person.
At what point do you stop going "somewhere else" and letting people get away with breaking the law and making the world an unsavory place to live in and start holding them responsible for their actions?
Fear of retribution is understandable, but again, where is the line? I would like to think that any owner who's dog I have to put down because it's attempting to do serious harm to me is going to understand that I'm prepared to defend myself in the face of extreme danger, including him/her.

"Get a Taser"
A real Taser costs 2-3 times what a handgun does, and the budget models costs about the same as a quality handgun.
Most people mean a stun gun when they say Taser and they are two different things entirely. A stun gun requires you to get within arms reach of your target, and using that on a vicious dog does not appeal to me personally, I don't know about anyone else.

Bear Spray
a viable option, but what's the point if I'm already carrying concealed? I could use bear spray in the same situations I could use my concealed weapon. How many weapons do you want to carry?

I'm not saying you should go blowing away every grandmother's yappy pomeranian but why do we bother jumping through the hoops to get permits to have our constitutional rights to defend ourselves if we don't exercise that right?

I love my dog, I love most dogs, and it's not the dog's fault but unfortunately the dog has to take the consequences of it's actions, even if those actions are dictated by how poor the owner raised it.
Same could be said of some criminals and their parents I suppose.

Just my thoughts on the matter
Chef

[JerryM]

I would carry OC Spray as well as a gun.
I keep reading of recommendations to carry Bear Spray. However, those cannisters are larger than OC spray, and although I have not seen a bear spray cannister I think they are too large for most carry.

Anyone recommending bear spray, how do you carry it? Do you have a belt holster? I would not want to carry anything in my hand.

One friend had to spray a dog, and it only took one squirt.

Regards,
Jerry

[8shot357]

In the scenarios posted, if you know this may happen then run on down to your local Tractor Supply and get a 5 foot cattle prod. I bit a dog once with one and he run off, havent seen him since he is probably still running.

LOL

What's a tractor? I live in Vegas.

Next time I'm back in MN, I'll have to go to Fleet Farm.

I love Fleet Farm "The Man's Mall" WWW.fleetfarm.com