Ammo availability vs. Coolness.

Wrothgar · December 29, 2009, 09:16 AM

Alright, I don't reload; is it even worth it to get a K31? It seems like everyone thinks they're going to stop making ammo for them. Should I spend a bit more on a good Enfield, or should I get a good K31 now while they're about 100 bucks less than a comparable Enfield (and the K31 has the accessories!)

I don't buy guns unless I can shoot them, and if there's not going to be any ammo I can't shoot them. I don't want to reload and even if I did there's no room in my tiny apartment for the setup. Also, if ammo runs out for a gun, doesn't that generally bring their value down? With so many K-31s being sold, it seems as though the ammo manufacturers would keep making ammo for them.

Also, are Finn Mosins generally considered "better" than the cheapo Ruskies going for 100 bucks nowadays?

Wrothgar · December 29, 2009, 09:31 AM

Also, I found a Canadian made Lee Enfield L 2A1 Ishapore Bolt Action Rifle that appears to be made for .308; is this true? Or has it simply been re chambered. If it is original I'm going to jump on it. I would post a link but JoeSalter doesn't seem to provide real addresses. The web page for the gun just says JoeSalter.com

Hardcase · December 29, 2009, 10:15 AM

Man, what a can of worms

Somebody else is going to have to speak to the K31 ammo situation - I don't collect them.

As to the Soviet versus Finn Mosin Nagant business, Finns are considered to be more collectible because there aren't nearly as many in existence as their Soviet brethren. In aggregate, the Finns tend to be more accurate than the Soviet Mosins because the Finnish arsenals took more care in rebuilding the rifles than the Soviets did - it was, I guess, a quality over quantity game.

On a rifle to rifle basis, though, there's no telling which will shoot better. If your aim is to collect the rifles, you just have to decide where your focus is. The rifles are priced based upon scarcity, which is why you'll find a Soviet model selling for a quarter of the price of a Finn.

Ishapores were originally chambered in .308. I'm pretty sure that none were made in Canada.

p99guy · December 29, 2009, 10:30 AM

the Indian Ishapore arsenal 7.62x51NATO Enfield rifle receivers were made of a tougher steel alloy than the .303 No.1 MK III* that they are based on.
And even they shouldnt be shot with maximum load .308 winchester ammo-
which has higher chamber pressures than military 7.62 NATO.
I dont know how there would be any canadian linkage to a post war Indian
made rifle. if somebody took a canadian .303 receiver and put a .308 barrel on it I wouldnt touch it If it were free!!!!!! kabooooom!!!

ammo for the K31 isnt scarce, and is made by civy companies as well. in tx a place called military gun supply in fort worth tends to always have it in stock, as well as the rifles.

Tamara · December 29, 2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrothgar

It seems like everyone thinks they're going to stop making ammo for them.

Who's going to stop making ammo for them? Norma? Prvi Partisan? Hornady?

johnwilliamson062 · December 29, 2009, 11:57 AM

1. The K31 is still in limited production in a number of chamberings including GP11, 308 and 30-06.
2.There are a ton of K31s chambered for GP11 around the world with some in use for hunting guns in Europe. There are also other rifles chambered for the round.
3.The GP11 is shot out of collectors K11s and K31s almost exclusively in the US.

They are still being shot enough that I think some ammo will be commercially produced for quite some time. Will ammo prices go up as surplus runs out? Of course. So will 7.62X54R and 7.62X25. GP11 will probably be one of the first to run out though. My impression is that there are no more K31s or GP11 in Swiss arsenals at this point. Since the round is pretty much only shot by collectors stateside it may not be imported to the US as widely as it is available in Europe, although I doubt it.

In conclusion, GP11 or 7.5 Swiss, may not get any cheaper but I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon.

johnwilliamson062 · December 29, 2009, 12:18 PM

Also keep in mind, and I don't shoot long range high power but this is what I have heard many places,

GP11 is a pretty high quality round. Basically equivocal to the match 30-06 round the US military produced(I forget what it was called). You are going to have a lot of trouble finding the same quality loading in any similar rifle round for a similar price.

ksstargazer · December 29, 2009, 02:23 PM

I am still finding GP11 at around 60 cents per round.
There are a number of manufacturers of 7.5 Swiss around. It isn't hard to find. There is a market for this ammo so I would not worry about it not being made anymore.
The K31 is one of the most consistently accurate surplus rifles made. My two serve me very well.
And yes, the Finnish mosins are consistently much better than the Soviet mosins. The currently available Finnish M39's are on a par with the K31 in terms of accuracy. You'll also pay about 2-3 times more money for a Finn unless you are lucky enough to find a seller who doesn't know the difference.

Wrothgar · December 29, 2009, 02:32 PM

Alright, I've made a decision; kinda.

This one...

or

This one.

Wrothgar · December 29, 2009, 03:42 PM

Whelp, just placed the order for the K31 :-).

foggy · December 29, 2009, 07:44 PM

The matching bayonet should be cool!

Wrothgar · December 29, 2009, 09:26 PM

Honestly, Foggy, that's the main reason I got that gun; I want a huge, giant knife!

gandog56 · December 30, 2009, 11:01 AM

Cripes, you can get a K31 much cheaper at SAMCO.

http://www.samcoglobal.com/k31.html

tater134 · December 30, 2009, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Cripes, you can get a K31 much cheaper at SAMCO.

Samco is cheaper but without the matching bayonet which is really tough to find.

Wrothgar I think youll be really happy with the K31.Theyre great shooters.

Wrothgar · December 30, 2009, 11:34 AM

Yeah, I know I can get them "cheaper", but this one includes all the stuff with it; sling, muzzle cover, bayonet, and frog, all matching and original. The only thing it probably won't have is the soldier's name under the butt plate, but maybe it will!

ksstargazer · December 30, 2009, 01:30 PM

You can't go wrong at that price. Once the recession is over and these rifles gain in popularity, the price will only go up. The way I figure it, when you get to the point that you either have to reload or buy commercial, the only rifles that will be popular to shoot will be the accurate ones. Who wants to shoot expensive inaccurate rifles? The K31 will probably be one of the most desireable firearms.

Wrothgar · December 30, 2009, 11:17 PM

What are your experiences with the surplus GP11 ammo?

DoctorXring · December 31, 2009, 12:54 AM

.

GP11 is the highest quality service ammunition extant.
I know of no other service ammunition that was ever
built to it's standards, except for perhaps some speciality
ammo for snipers.

Unless you handload, you will not be able to obtain finer
ammunition than GP11 for your K31.

As far as costs, it is no higher than desirable 30-06 service
ammunition like HXP, Lake City, etc.

I've shot a lot of it over the years, and I love shooting it.
Accurate and very consistent.

This is a GP11 cartridge and a pulled GP11 projectile on
top of this Sierra box --

Wrothgar · December 31, 2009, 01:04 AM

very cool; I just bought a 60 round pack and its cheaper (per round) than the wolf stuff.

ksstargazer · December 31, 2009, 11:33 AM

Yep, I don't believe there is anything commercially made that is better than GP11. I buy pretty much any that I find that is reasonably priced.

p99guy · December 31, 2009, 12:29 PM

the k31 has one of the formitable looking bayonets known....its one bad Victorinox! and they arent cheap by themselves....when I picked up one for mine it was a $130.

only warning as a new K31 owner, you will have to practice taking the K31's bolt apart for cleaning a couple of times before it makes sense.

Wrothgar · December 31, 2009, 01:23 PM

So, now that I'm waiting for it to come in, anyone here mind telling me about the action? I know it is a straight pull, and I've seen it shot... but what is that big ring on the back for? Also, is there a safety? How do you take the bolt out; do you just pull the trigger and pull it out the back like a Mosin? For a cleaning brush, should I use a 7.62 Nato/.308? Thanks!

Also, this is something I should have asked a while ago; when cleaning a rifle, do you insert the rod through the chamber or through the business end of the barrel?

Tamara · December 31, 2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrothgar

...but what is that big ring on the back for? Also, is there a safety?

You answered your own question.

Here's some stuff on my Schmidt 96/11. You will also like SwissRifles.com.

Ignition Override · January 1, 2010, 01:14 AM

Wrothgar:

The "Joesalter" website (they are in NH) lists lots of Lee-Enfields. They sold me my first LE. Lots of his items are shipped from his Canadian business.

You might also enjoy skimming over their other military rifles/handguns and widely-assorted militaria, whether British, American, German.

Anybody in or near NH who doesn't already know about firm this might soon be in trouble, especially with a wife ("Why do you need another one?"

).

Wrothgar · January 1, 2010, 10:30 AM

I've been looking at JS for a while now, and I just had to make a decision between a K31 and LE; the K31 just won out.

December 29, 2009, 09:16 AM	#1
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	Ammo availability vs. Coolness. Alright, I don't reload; is it even worth it to get a K31? It seems like everyone thinks they're going to stop making ammo for them. Should I spend a bit more on a good Enfield, or should I get a good K31 now while they're about 100 bucks less than a comparable Enfield (and the K31 has the accessories!) I don't buy guns unless I can shoot them, and if there's not going to be any ammo I can't shoot them. I don't want to reload and even if I did there's no room in my tiny apartment for the setup. Also, if ammo runs out for a gun, doesn't that generally bring their value down? With so many K-31s being sold, it seems as though the ammo manufacturers would keep making ammo for them. Also, are Finn Mosins generally considered "better" than the cheapo Ruskies going for 100 bucks nowadays? Last edited by Wrothgar; December 29, 2009 at 10:00 AM.

December 29, 2009, 10:15 AM	#3
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	Man, what a can of worms Somebody else is going to have to speak to the K31 ammo situation - I don't collect them. As to the Soviet versus Finn Mosin Nagant business, Finns are considered to be more collectible because there aren't nearly as many in existence as their Soviet brethren. In aggregate, the Finns tend to be more accurate than the Soviet Mosins because the Finnish arsenals took more care in rebuilding the rifles than the Soviets did - it was, I guess, a quality over quantity game. On a rifle to rifle basis, though, there's no telling which will shoot better. If your aim is to collect the rifles, you just have to decide where your focus is. The rifles are priced based upon scarcity, which is why you'll find a Soviet model selling for a quarter of the price of a Finn. Ishapores were originally chambered in .308. I'm pretty sure that none were made in Canada. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

December 29, 2009, 10:30 AM	#4
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	the Indian Ishapore arsenal 7.62x51NATO Enfield rifle receivers were made of a tougher steel alloy than the .303 No.1 MK III* that they are based on. And even they shouldnt be shot with maximum load .308 winchester ammo- which has higher chamber pressures than military 7.62 NATO. I dont know how there would be any canadian linkage to a post war Indian made rifle. if somebody took a canadian .303 receiver and put a .308 barrel on it I wouldnt touch it If it were free!!!!!! kabooooom!!! ammo for the K31 isnt scarce, and is made by civy companies as well. in tx a place called military gun supply in fort worth tends to always have it in stock, as well as the rifles. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

December 30, 2009, 11:01 AM	#13
gandog56 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 979	Cripes, you can get a K31 much cheaper at SAMCO. http://www.samcoglobal.com/k31.html __________________ Some people think I'm paranoid because I have guns. If I have guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?

December 31, 2009, 12:29 PM	#21
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	the k31 has one of the formitable looking bayonets known....its one bad Victorinox! and they arent cheap by themselves....when I picked up one for mine it was a $130. only warning as a new K31 owner, you will have to practice taking the K31's bolt apart for cleaning a couple of times before it makes sense. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

December 29, 2009, 09:31 AM	#2
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	Also, I found a Canadian made Lee Enfield L 2A1 Ishapore Bolt Action Rifle that appears to be made for .308; is this true? Or has it simply been re chambered. If it is original I'm going to jump on it. I would post a link but JoeSalter doesn't seem to provide real addresses. The web page for the gun just says JoeSalter.com

December 29, 2009, 11:57 AM	#6
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	1. The K31 is still in limited production in a number of chamberings including GP11, 308 and 30-06. 2.There are a ton of K31s chambered for GP11 around the world with some in use for hunting guns in Europe. There are also other rifles chambered for the round. 3.The GP11 is shot out of collectors K11s and K31s almost exclusively in the US. They are still being shot enough that I think some ammo will be commercially produced for quite some time. Will ammo prices go up as surplus runs out? Of course. So will 7.62X54R and 7.62X25. GP11 will probably be one of the first to run out though. My impression is that there are no more K31s or GP11 in Swiss arsenals at this point. Since the round is pretty much only shot by collectors stateside it may not be imported to the US as widely as it is available in Europe, although I doubt it. In conclusion, GP11 or 7.5 Swiss, may not get any cheaper but I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon.

December 29, 2009, 12:18 PM	#7
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Also keep in mind, and I don't shoot long range high power but this is what I have heard many places, GP11 is a pretty high quality round. Basically equivocal to the match 30-06 round the US military produced(I forget what it was called). You are going to have a lot of trouble finding the same quality loading in any similar rifle round for a similar price.

December 29, 2009, 02:23 PM	#8
ksstargazer Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2004 Location: Flint Hills of Kansas Posts: 316	I am still finding GP11 at around 60 cents per round. There are a number of manufacturers of 7.5 Swiss around. It isn't hard to find. There is a market for this ammo so I would not worry about it not being made anymore. The K31 is one of the most consistently accurate surplus rifles made. My two serve me very well. And yes, the Finnish mosins are consistently much better than the Soviet mosins. The currently available Finnish M39's are on a par with the K31 in terms of accuracy. You'll also pay about 2-3 times more money for a Finn unless you are lucky enough to find a seller who doesn't know the difference.

December 29, 2009, 02:32 PM	#9
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	Alright, I've made a decision; kinda. This one... or This one.

December 29, 2009, 03:42 PM	#10
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	Whelp, just placed the order for the K31 :-).

December 29, 2009, 07:44 PM	#11
foggy Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2008 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 106	The matching bayonet should be cool!

December 29, 2009, 09:26 PM	#12
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	Honestly, Foggy, that's the main reason I got that gun; I want a huge, giant knife!

December 30, 2009, 11:34 AM	#15
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	Yeah, I know I can get them "cheaper", but this one includes all the stuff with it; sling, muzzle cover, bayonet, and frog, all matching and original. The only thing it probably won't have is the soldier's name under the butt plate, but maybe it will!

December 30, 2009, 01:30 PM	#16
ksstargazer Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2004 Location: Flint Hills of Kansas Posts: 316	You can't go wrong at that price. Once the recession is over and these rifles gain in popularity, the price will only go up. The way I figure it, when you get to the point that you either have to reload or buy commercial, the only rifles that will be popular to shoot will be the accurate ones. Who wants to shoot expensive inaccurate rifles? The K31 will probably be one of the most desireable firearms.

December 30, 2009, 11:17 PM	#17
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	What are your experiences with the surplus GP11 ammo?

December 31, 2009, 12:54 AM	#18
DoctorXring Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2002 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 392	. GP11 is the highest quality service ammunition extant. I know of no other service ammunition that was ever built to it's standards, except for perhaps some speciality ammo for snipers. Unless you handload, you will not be able to obtain finer ammunition than GP11 for your K31. As far as costs, it is no higher than desirable 30-06 service ammunition like HXP, Lake City, etc. I've shot a lot of it over the years, and I love shooting it. Accurate and very consistent. This is a GP11 cartridge and a pulled GP11 projectile on top of this Sierra box --

December 31, 2009, 01:04 AM	#19
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	very cool; I just bought a 60 round pack and its cheaper (per round) than the wolf stuff.

December 31, 2009, 11:33 AM	#20
ksstargazer Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2004 Location: Flint Hills of Kansas Posts: 316	Yep, I don't believe there is anything commercially made that is better than GP11. I buy pretty much any that I find that is reasonably priced.

December 31, 2009, 01:23 PM	#22
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	So, now that I'm waiting for it to come in, anyone here mind telling me about the action? I know it is a straight pull, and I've seen it shot... but what is that big ring on the back for? Also, is there a safety? How do you take the bolt out; do you just pull the trigger and pull it out the back like a Mosin? For a cleaning brush, should I use a 7.62 Nato/.308? Thanks! Also, this is something I should have asked a while ago; when cleaning a rifle, do you insert the rod through the chamber or through the business end of the barrel?

January 1, 2010, 01:14 AM	#24
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	Wrothgar: The "Joesalter" website (they are in NH) lists lots of Lee-Enfields. They sold me my first LE. Lots of his items are shipped from his Canadian business. You might also enjoy skimming over their other military rifles/handguns and widely-assorted militaria, whether British, American, German. Anybody in or near NH who doesn't already know about firm this might soon be in trouble, especially with a wife ("Why do you need another one?").

January 1, 2010, 10:30 AM	#25
Wrothgar Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 778	I've been looking at JS for a while now, and I just had to make a decision between a K31 and LE; the K31 just won out.