Using front sight

[KLRANGL]

So I know you are "suppose" to focus on your front sight while pistol shooting, but for some reason my natural instinct is to focus on the target. Sometimes I try really hard to stay focused on the front sight, but when I do my groupings dont really change. Have I just taught myself the wrong thing, or is focusing on the front sight not as important as it seems? Im not looking for perfect groupings, just practical SD shooting techniques. Ideally I'm going to take some classes this summer, but we'll see if that happens...
I practice pretty often, and currently shoot rapid fire groupings a bit smaller than the 9 ring on a B27 target at the 7 yard line... Slow aimed fire I can keep in the X ring at the same distance with the occasional flier.

[Jim March]

Target-focus IS the way to go - but the trick is, you need iron sights that were designed to be used target-focus.

See also ALL of my comments in this thread:

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=51194

...and this one:

http://www.arizonashooting.com/v3/vi...p?f=36&t=69648

In this fashion I'm breaking away hard from the front-sight dogma handed down from Cooper, Weaver and the rest.

[David Armstrong]

"Target focused" shooting is a perfectly viable and acceptable form of self-defense shooting at close range, and as you have found it doesn't take much training to be able to use it. During a real fight that puts you under sudden stress the odds are you won't be able to focus on anything except the target anyway.

[AZAK]

For self defense type training, hitting the target is what counts; if you do this focusing on the target, great!

I personally find that considering reasonable self defense distances that I can also shoot pretty much equally well with focus on target or front sight. Quick draw and getting at least two shots on target ASAP. Slow fire on the other hand, for me, is much better using sights.

Longer distance target shooting is really aided by using the sights.

So I train mainly depending on distance and speed. The more speed and the less distance, target. The slower and longer, sights. And in-between a little of both. (For the most part I can focus on the target and still see if the sights are aligned anyway.)

One way that I have looked at it, pun intended, is if I am to the point of pulling the trigger on a threat, I want to know where that threat is... right now... stationary or moving... doing what... etc... which I would know by focusing on the target.

[kraigwy]

You look at you front sight, ITS GONNA MAKE YOU GROUPS SMALLER.

Shooting fundamentals is habits. Good habits make for good shooting, bad habits dont.

It takes practice, lots of dry firing, concentration. A trick I teach is:

Pretend your front sight is on a lever connected to the trigger, As you squeeze the trigger you are slidding the front sight to the rear of the pistol. The more you squeeze the closer the front sight moves toward your eye.

If you practice this, it will look like the front sight is acctually moving to the rear of the gun.

Of course we know the sight isnt moving, but it appears to be because as you concentrat the sight gets clear and sharp, looking closer.

9s on 21 feet, will be misses at twice that range. Using the front sight at 21 feet is possible and just as fast. A HELL OF A LOT MORE CONSISTANT AND ACCURATE.

Shooting takes work, start slow, concentrate on the front sight, as the groups get smaller, you can speed up and move farther back.

YOu have to want to, you'rn not just gonna wake up one morning and find you are a shooter, it dosnt work that way.

It takes hard work, and it depends, like everything else in lifle, on what you want.

It dosnt have to be fancy target sights, you can do it with simple little guns like the 5 shot 2 in pocket revolvers. It helps if you take a cigarette lighter and smoke (blacken) your front sight.

We can be lazy and say we only care about SD shooting so there is no need for anything but close, muzzle blast range. But be honest with your self, do you want to learn to shoot? Are you willing to put in the time and effort?

Only you can answer those questions.

[KLRANGL]

Kraig, thats the mantra Ive heard from pretty much all the shooters these days and I totally respect it. Its just to me it seems flawed for anything other than target shooting, which is why I was asking for opinions.

We can be lazy and say we only care about SD shooting so there is no need for anything but close, muzzle blast range.

I dont see it as being lazy, but as in redirecting your priorities. IE larger groupings for better threat assessment.

One way that I have looked at it, pun intended, is if I am to the point of pulling the trigger on a threat, I want to know where that threat is... right now... stationary or moving... doing what... etc... which I would know by focusing on the target.

Yeah, this is where I was coming from. Just made more sense to me this way.

I'd definitely like to hear opinions from both sides of the fence...

[maxkimber]

When I was an instructor, I could tell when a student was focusing on the target, because all the holes were right around the bull, but not in it - we called it "chasing the bull." I would instruct them to focus on the front sight and the groups would tighten up into the bull - and I looked like a superstar instructor.

Moral of the story, if all other fundamentals are good and you focus on the target, you will hit it, just not where you are 'aiming,' but fairly close; but you can take the X out of the target if you focus on the front sight...

[David Armstrong]

Using the front sight at 21 feet is possible and just as fast.

Not really. Lots of tests out there that show focus on the target does give a slightly faster shot without any significant loss of accuracy.

We can be lazy and say we only care about SD shooting so there is no need for anything but close, muzzle blast range. But be honest with your self, do you want to learn to shoot? Are you willing to put in the time and effort?

That is the key, IMO. One can learn to shoot with target focus rather quickly and without a big investment in time, and be capable of an adequate response for msot SD situations. Lots of folks don't have the time to put in the effort for some of the techniques out there. Doesn't mean they are bad techniques, but target focus will allow you to handle most attacks with a relatively small investment of your resources.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I don't think there's a single answer, especially for those with limited training time and funds.

Sure, we'd all like to be honored graduates of SD shooting schools but it's not always possible.

I was practicing speed draws from concealment the other day. I noticed that it was very easy to draw the gun and "point" at the target but have the gun aiming off to the right, I assume because I'm right handed. I'm sure that over time I'll be better at getting the proper grip on the draw and my aim will be better. In the mean time, the front sight is the best reference I have for knowing where the gun is actually pointing. Basically, I don't think you can or should ignore either the sight or the target.

[KLRANGL]

That is the key, IMO. One can learn to shoot with target focus rather quickly and without a big investment in time, and be capable of an adequate response for msot SD situations. Lots of folks don't have the time to put in the effort for some of the techniques out there. Doesn't mean they are bad techniques, but target focus will allow you to handle most attacks with a relatively small investment of your resources.

The big thing for me isn't because its easy. Ive been shooting since I was 8 and can keep a good sight picture, it just doesn't seem natural to me.

Do any big name trainers teach target focused marksmanship?

[David Armstrong]

Do any big name trainers teach target focused marksmanship?

I guess it depends on what you consider a big name trainer, but yes, certainly some well-known trainers teach it. Some teach it almost exclusively, some teach it as one part of the overall package.

[NRAhab]

That's a loaded question. Example: Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and Blackwater (the big 3) all teach you to use the front sight.

Robb Pincus uses "threat focused" shooting as part of ICE training, and it's an excellent package.

Louis Awerbuck says "use the front sight", but he does in a way that's way cooler than I could ever do it.

Off the top of my head, I cannot however think of any tier 1 instructors that teach threat focused shooting at the exclusion of other techniques. I know as mentioned above that Robb teaches what is probably the "best" flavor of it, and integrates it into an overall defensive training package.

There are many, many more instructors than just what's listed here obviously. Since I sadly lack encyclopedic knowledge of all the 2nd tier and lower gunschools in the country, I can't tell you what or how their train their people.

[ranburr]

I have had instructors teach front sight focus while others have taught target focused. My answer is that it is situationally dependent. If you have the time to use the front sight, you would be stupid not to. If you don't have the time, or you are moving, you need to be target focused. I have noticed that a lot of the sight focused instructors don't advocate shooting while moving. Personally, out to ten yards my hits are pretty comparable whichever method I use. Beyond that, my groups are obviously better with focus on the front sight.

[Zak Smith]

Practical shooters use a variety of aiming/focusing techniques depending on the speed vs. accuracy required in the situation. Often a target focus (or some type of body indexing) can be faster-- however, it is more likely to cause misses if everything isn't going just right for whatever reason.

Using the front sight always works. It is the fail-safe method to make hits. You can have any stance, any grip, and position, even hold the pistol upside down in your hands. If the sights are aligned and the front sight is on the target as the trigger is pressed, the bullet will hit the target.

-z

[Nnobby45]

During a real fight that puts you under sudden stress the odds are you won't be able to focus on anything except the target anyway.

That's very true. Most people have never trained enough to use their front sight under stress.

Those who do, tend to win gunfights.

Jim Cirillo, after a shooting, remembered, very clearly, the front serrations on his front sight. And I suspect during all the shootings he participated in thereafter.

Nobody who ever used a front sight in a gunfight ever questioned it's effectiveness or superiority over other methods. At least I haven't heard from any.

We don't hear from as many of the "focus some where else" shooters, since, no doubt, fewer survive.

Those of us who frequent gun forums but never participated in a gun fight, of course, often have different opinions.

Want to prove it to yourself? Do a rapid fire drill (paper plates are good) while focusing on the target. Now do it with a sight picture for each shot. With a little work, you won't shoot any slower, and you will count considerably more holes in the target. Or at least, your groups will be much tighter. Make it easy on yourself. Three to five yds.

[Archie]

The original post mentioned a couple specifics:
Target at 7 yards or so, and 'rapid fire groups'. Shot groups don't really change between sight focused fire and target focused fire.

One can become rather proficient at point shooting rather easily. Especially with the technique of shot strings.

Now. Next time, first, see if you can find a target with a surface that makes the shot holes hard to see; so you cannot see your hits and correct. Draw from your holster and fire one shot and one shot only. Holster and repeat for three or four shots and check your target. See how that goes. I'm sure you'll find the groups are rather looser than the burst fire strings.

One of the things you must understand if you plan on defending your life with a handgun is the first shot counts far more than subsequent shots. Especially if you encounter multiple opponents.

Another observation: If your groups do not change between front sight focused fire and target focused fire, you aren't very good at sighted fire. Even at seven yards, sighted fire should deliver a much tighter group than pointed fire. (Even though point shooting can deliver very reasonable groups up close.)

Should you ever have to shoot further than fifteen yards, or make a deliberate shot on a a restricted target, you must learn proper sighted fire.

The very experienced pair Fairbairn & Sykes - famous for training the Shanghai Constabulary during the pre-WWII period when Great Britain was in charge of Shanghai - taught a two prong approach to gunfighting. They taught pointed fire out to about three or four meters and sighted fire beyond that. Shooting to Live is an excellent primer for defensive shooting, and written by W. E. Fairbairn and E. A. Sykes who survived Shanghai as members of the police force in the 1930s.

So, whereas point shooting is valid and useful for close range defense, sighted fire is a required part of pistol craft.

[David Armstrong]

We don't hear from as many of the "focus some where else" shooters, since, no doubt, fewer survive.

We actually hear a lot from the "focus somewhere else" shooters, its just that some folks fail to hear them. Lou Chiodo reports plenty of successes and survivors with point shooting. NYPD's SOP9 reports a high percentage of officers who survive gunfights and say they did not use their sights. In fact, the available evidence seems to suggest that, at least for LE, agencies that move away from strict sighted fire and incorporate target focus shooting into their training tend to do better than when they just used sighted fire.

[Shane Tuttle]

Originally Posted by Nobby45

We don't hear from as many of the "focus some where else" shooters, since, no doubt, fewer survive.

You have sources to this claim or is this an observation on your part?

I do actually have doubts that "fewer" survive. But I also believe sighted fire is more effective overall. No matter what position, stance, movement, techniques, kind of gun, etc. are used, I know without a doubt the bullet's going to go there.

I see point shooting to be reliant on muscle memory too much. There's infinite possibilities with positioning of your eyes to a target when factoring in distance, height, and obstructions (i.e. body armor). In the extremely rare case the assailant is going to be the same height your practice target is and is standing right in front of you not moving any direction but straight at you, I can see foregoing using sighted fire and use target focused shooting.

People can dismiss Cooper, Awerbuck, Cain, and countless others that teach sighted fire as your primary tool. But if you think about it, why are most of THE TOP instructors have this philosophy? These guys aren't brainwashed and they're not idiots. Their technique has been proven to work for the majority of folks.

If target focused shooting is so effective and is thought to be the primary technique, then why don't we just toss the sights? They cost money and protrude as such that they pose a possibility of snagging on the draw anyway...

Sometimes I try really hard to stay focused on the front sight, but when I do my groupings dont really change.

Are you sure you're using your dominant eye?

[Nnobby45]

You have sources to this claim or is this an observation on your part?

Just an observation. Sighted fire wins gunfights. At spitting distance point shooting works also. Never heard a gun fight survivor claim that point shooting was superior to sighted fire.

When I rapid fire at 3 to 5 yds with a sight picture for each shot, they all go into the target (a paper plate) and into a group about the size of my hand. When I forget my focus for an instance by coming off the sight, group size increases.

Quote:
We don't hear from as many of the "focus some where else" shooters, since, no doubt, fewer survive.

We actually hear a lot from the "focus somewhere else" shooters, its just that some folks fail to hear them.

Hey, David, a little tongue in cheek here, ok.

[KLRANGL]

I was under the impression that point shooting didnt use the sights at all. I still use the sights, they are just not the point of focus. Is this point shooting or am I just special?

Are you sure you're using your dominant eye?

yes 100%
I haven't done a proper target focus vs sight focus test, so I really shouldn't say that my groupings dont improve. Just that they don't appear to improve...

[Nnobby45]

I was under the impression that point shooting didnt use the sights at all. I still use the sights, they are just not the point of focus. Is this point shooting or am I just special?

It does get a little confusing. I think what many, if not most, refer to as point shooting, is actually focusing on the target and using the sight as a reference. That's still a form of sighted fire.


A lot different than "real" point shooting where sights aren't visible at all. Some have referred to that as "instinct" shooting.

Maybe we've just been disagreeing about the degree of sighted fire. Focus on front sight vs on target. Both methods allow for seeing both target and sights.

[bogieb]

Using the front sight always works. It is the fail-safe method to make hits. You can have any stance, any grip, and position, even hold the pistol upside down in your hands.

Well, that's good - as long as you can actually see the front sights. For those of us whose arms aren't long enough anymore (they shrunk with old age), that is problematic. Sure, I can get special glasses for use while at the range, but in SD circumstanses, odds are those glasses will not be in my nose, so I practice the way I will actually be seeing in the real world.

[cavymeister]

So, is the answer: "Both have their place"? I mean, if you can't see your front sight, then you can't sighted fire, but sighted fire is the most accurate. I have read that you fall back to your training and as such you should practice with the weapons and way you will shoot in a SD situation. That being said, you should practice to be as accurate as possible for your particular limits.

[David Armstrong]

If target focused shooting is so effective and is thought to be the primary technique, then why don't we just toss the sights?

Because, unllike some, target focus proponents don't try to claim that one-size-fits-all. Target focused shooters and trainers, AFAIK, will ALL say one should use the sights whenever possible, but that one needs target focus skills for those times when focus on the sights is not possible, which seems to be quite frequent in close-range personal defense situations.

[David Armstrong]

I was under the impression that point shooting didnt use the sights at all. I still use the sights, they are just not the point of focus. Is this point shooting or am I just special?

Traditionally sighted fire referred to focusing on getting a sight picture to aim the firearm and target focused/point shooting meant focusing on the target itself rather than the sights. In point shooting you can have the sights in the sighting plane or they may be out of the sighting plane, but if your focus is on the target you are point shooting in the traditional sense.