Looking for knowledge and opinion

Striker071 · October 4, 2008, 05:15 AM

OK here goes

1. My state only allows people who train law enforcement and collectors to have "Machine Guns".

2. But they do allow SBR's

So if I get this right the only advantage of getting the class III would be that I would be able to have a short barrel but not select fire... does that sound correct?

Now the opinion part is should I go through all the hassle just to get a Class III just for a barrel that might be 4 to 6 inches shorter?

OK Class III should be NFA.... wrong terminolgy on my part...Thanks VUPDblue

VUPDblue · October 4, 2008, 07:52 AM

Sounds to me like you are mistaken about what you have to do to get the fun toys. There is no blanket Class III "license". If you want a SBR, you must only file the paperwork, and pay a one time tax of $200 to the .gov.

Check this thread out http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...hlight=nfa+faq

lockedcj7 · October 4, 2008, 08:03 AM

"Class III" isn't a license or permit that you get like an FFL or CWP. If your state and locality allow it, you can jump through the hoops and pay the taxes to acquire an SBR, AOW, suppressor or full-auto/select-fire weapon.

I don't have any direct experience but my understanding is that you can't apply for a license and then purchase the weapon/device later. You have to decide on the purchase, pay a deposit and then do the paperwork. If it gets approved, then you can pay off the item and take possession.

What I don't know is... once you've legally acquired one NFA weapon or device, do you have to do all the same paperwork and background check again for a second one?

I don't have any desire to own an SBR or AOW but I do have a desire to own a suppressor. That will likely be my intro to NFA weapons and devices. When/if I ever have the money, I would love to have a full-auto or select-fire weapon but that won't be any time soon.

oldcspsarge · October 4, 2008, 08:13 PM

Individuals who wish to purchase NFA firearms purchase them from a class 3 dealer. They get a tax stamp for each firearm and become a "SOT" Special Occupational Tax Payer.

The $ 200 tax stamp is a one time fee for each firearm except AOW's which are $ 5 transfer tax.

Each individual NFA firearm requires repeating the same procedure of application, submission and approval.

....and there is no limit on how many you can buy !

To get a class 3 license, to become an NFA dealer, you must first get an FFL and then pay an additional $ 500 per year for the class 3 license......and still do transfer papers on each and every NFA regulated firearm.

Hope that helps !

David Hineline · October 5, 2008, 02:14 AM

Without knowing your state of residence it's kind of hard to even think about giving an answer.

aroundlsu · October 6, 2008, 10:45 AM

OK, so why can't you be a collector? We're all collectors. If they want you to have a collectors license that's super easy. A Curio & Relic Collectors FFL from the ATF is only $30.

We need to know where you live to help you.

James K · October 6, 2008, 01:12 PM

First, a C&R FFL does NOT trump a state law banning automatic weapons, even though some automatic weapons are C&R items. And even with C&R auto weapons (such as a WWII STEN gun), the NFA requirements must be met. The only difference is that for interstate transfers, the C&R FFL holder may receive the NFA item directly, and not have to go through a Class 3 dealer. (Transfer of an automatic weapon to an individual or C&R holder in a state that bans them will NOT be approved by BATFE.)

Second, the term Special Occupational Tax applies to the special tax (in addition to the regular dealer license fee) paid by the dealer, not to the individual buyer. The $200 (or $5) is a transfer tax, not an SOT or a license, and is paid on each transfer of an NFA item.

Jim

HKuser · October 6, 2008, 01:55 PM

This might all be clearer if we knew what state you're talking about.

Striker071 · October 6, 2008, 07:55 PM

Sorry Massachusetts...... Says I have to go to the Colonel of the State Police for a "Machine Gun".

HKuser · October 7, 2008, 09:04 AM

Machine Gun License
A license to possess or carry a machine gun may be issued to a firearm instructor certified by the Criminal Justice Training Council for the sole purpose of firearm instruction to police personnel, or to a bona fide collector of firearms upon application or renewal of such license.

A "bona fide collector of firearms," for the purpose of issuance of a machine gun license, shall be defined as an individual who acquires firearms for such lawful purposes as historical significance, display, research, lecturing, demonstration, test firing, investment or other like purpose. For the purpose of issuance of a machine gun license the acquisition of firearms for sporting use or for use as an offensive or defensive weapon shall not qualify an applicant as a bona fide collector of firearms. An individual licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Sections 921-929 and 27 CFR part 178 shall be deemed a bona fide collector of firearms for the purpose of this regulation.

aroundlsu · October 7, 2008, 10:33 AM

Sounds like you just need to get that collectors license. Can anyone dig up 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Sections 921-929 and 27 CFR part 178?

Don H · October 7, 2008, 11:28 AM

State law can be more restrictive than federal law and will, in this case, override federal laws.

HKuser · October 7, 2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Can anyone dig up 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Sections 921-929 and 27 CFR part 178?

It's the GCA '68. Basically it's saying that if your a licensed collector that you meet the definition.

Quote:

State law can be more restrictive than federal law and will, in this case, override federal laws.

State law is what we're discussing.

Don H · October 7, 2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

State law is what we're discussing.

I realize that. I was merely pointing out that obtaining a federal "collector's license" (03FFL) will not allow one to circumvent more restrictive state laws.

aroundlsu · October 7, 2008, 03:42 PM

Except in this case the state law says you can have it if you're a licensed collector. Now the question is, does a C&R license make you a licensed collector for the purposes of the state law?

Hkmp5sd · October 7, 2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

does a C&R license make you a licensed collector for the purposes of the state law?

HKuser posted the state law. The state law says if you meet the federal requirements for a C&R license (18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Sections 921-929 and 27 CFR part 178), you are considered a collector by the state and can have machineguns.

Striker071 · October 8, 2008, 04:58 AM

OK so my only solution is to get a C&R license if I want the weapon to be a "Machine Gun". SBR's are allowed in my state but does it seem like its a waste to pay 200 dollars just to shave 1.5 to 5.5 inches off the barrel length if I dont meet the C&R requirements???

aroundlsu · October 8, 2008, 10:22 AM

Taking 5.5" off a carbine makes a big difference in many different ways. Some good (maneuverability), some bad (ballistics). If you add a suppressor it makes it even more worthwhile. Add a 5" suppressor to a 16" carbine and try to run through a house.

I love my 9.25" SBR + M4-2000 suppressor... It was well worth two $200 stamps.

This is something I realistically could use to defend myself. I'd never consider keeping a machine gun next to my bed but the SBR is no problem.

October 4, 2008, 05:15 AM	#1
Striker071 Member Join Date: July 9, 2008 Posts: 87	Looking for knowledge and opinion OK here goes 1. My state only allows people who train law enforcement and collectors to have "Machine Guns". 2. But they do allow SBR's So if I get this right the only advantage of getting the class III would be that I would be able to have a short barrel but not select fire... does that sound correct? Now the opinion part is should I go through all the hassle just to get a Class III just for a barrel that might be 4 to 6 inches shorter? OK Class III should be NFA.... wrong terminolgy on my part...Thanks VUPDblue Last edited by Striker071; October 4, 2008 at 08:50 AM.

October 4, 2008, 07:52 AM	#2
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	Sounds to me like you are mistaken about what you have to do to get the fun toys. There is no blanket Class III "license". If you want a SBR, you must only file the paperwork, and pay a one time tax of $200 to the .gov. Check this thread out http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...hlight=nfa+faq __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

October 4, 2008, 08:03 AM	#3
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	"Class III" isn't a license or permit that you get like an FFL or CWP. If your state and locality allow it, you can jump through the hoops and pay the taxes to acquire an SBR, AOW, suppressor or full-auto/select-fire weapon. I don't have any direct experience but my understanding is that you can't apply for a license and then purchase the weapon/device later. You have to decide on the purchase, pay a deposit and then do the paperwork. If it gets approved, then you can pay off the item and take possession. What I don't know is... once you've legally acquired one NFA weapon or device, do you have to do all the same paperwork and background check again for a second one? I don't have any desire to own an SBR or AOW but I do have a desire to own a suppressor. That will likely be my intro to NFA weapons and devices. When/if I ever have the money, I would love to have a full-auto or select-fire weapon but that won't be any time soon. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

October 4, 2008, 08:13 PM	#4
oldcspsarge Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2008 Location: Rocky Mountains Posts: 441	Individuals who wish to purchase NFA firearms purchase them from a class 3 dealer. They get a tax stamp for each firearm and become a "SOT" Special Occupational Tax Payer. The $ 200 tax stamp is a one time fee for each firearm except AOW's which are $ 5 transfer tax. Each individual NFA firearm requires repeating the same procedure of application, submission and approval. ....and there is no limit on how many you can buy ! To get a class 3 license, to become an NFA dealer, you must first get an FFL and then pay an additional $ 500 per year for the class 3 license......and still do transfer papers on each and every NFA regulated firearm. Hope that helps !

October 5, 2008, 02:14 AM	#5
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Without knowing your state of residence it's kind of hard to even think about giving an answer.

October 6, 2008, 10:45 AM	#6
aroundlsu Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 156	OK, so why can't you be a collector? We're all collectors. If they want you to have a collectors license that's super easy. A Curio & Relic Collectors FFL from the ATF is only $30. We need to know where you live to help you.

October 6, 2008, 01:12 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	First, a C&R FFL does NOT trump a state law banning automatic weapons, even though some automatic weapons are C&R items. And even with C&R auto weapons (such as a WWII STEN gun), the NFA requirements must be met. The only difference is that for interstate transfers, the C&R FFL holder may receive the NFA item directly, and not have to go through a Class 3 dealer. (Transfer of an automatic weapon to an individual or C&R holder in a state that bans them will NOT be approved by BATFE.) Second, the term Special Occupational Tax applies to the special tax (in addition to the regular dealer license fee) paid by the dealer, not to the individual buyer. The $200 (or $5) is a transfer tax, not an SOT or a license, and is paid on each transfer of an NFA item. Jim

October 6, 2008, 01:55 PM	#8
HKuser Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2008 Location: PA Posts: 625	This might all be clearer if we knew what state you're talking about.

October 6, 2008, 07:55 PM	#9
Striker071 Member Join Date: July 9, 2008 Posts: 87	Sorry Massachusetts...... Says I have to go to the Colonel of the State Police for a "Machine Gun".

October 7, 2008, 09:04 AM	#10
HKuser Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2008 Location: PA Posts: 625	Machine Gun License A license to possess or carry a machine gun may be issued to a firearm instructor certified by the Criminal Justice Training Council for the sole purpose of firearm instruction to police personnel, or to a bona fide collector of firearms upon application or renewal of such license. A "bona fide collector of firearms," for the purpose of issuance of a machine gun license, shall be defined as an individual who acquires firearms for such lawful purposes as historical significance, display, research, lecturing, demonstration, test firing, investment or other like purpose. For the purpose of issuance of a machine gun license the acquisition of firearms for sporting use or for use as an offensive or defensive weapon shall not qualify an applicant as a bona fide collector of firearms. An individual licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Sections 921-929 and 27 CFR part 178 shall be deemed a bona fide collector of firearms for the purpose of this regulation.

October 7, 2008, 10:33 AM	#11
aroundlsu Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 156	Sounds like you just need to get that collectors license. Can anyone dig up 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Sections 921-929 and 27 CFR part 178?

October 7, 2008, 11:28 AM	#12
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	State law can be more restrictive than federal law and will, in this case, override federal laws.

October 7, 2008, 03:42 PM	#15
aroundlsu Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 156	Except in this case the state law says you can have it if you're a licensed collector. Now the question is, does a C&R license make you a licensed collector for the purposes of the state law?

October 8, 2008, 04:58 AM	#17
Striker071 Member Join Date: July 9, 2008 Posts: 87	OK so my only solution is to get a C&R license if I want the weapon to be a "Machine Gun". SBR's are allowed in my state but does it seem like its a waste to pay 200 dollars just to shave 1.5 to 5.5 inches off the barrel length if I dont meet the C&R requirements???

October 8, 2008, 10:22 AM	#18
aroundlsu Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 156	Taking 5.5" off a carbine makes a big difference in many different ways. Some good (maneuverability), some bad (ballistics). If you add a suppressor it makes it even more worthwhile. Add a 5" suppressor to a 16" carbine and try to run through a house. I love my 9.25" SBR + M4-2000 suppressor... It was well worth two $200 stamps. This is something I realistically could use to defend myself. I'd never consider keeping a machine gun next to my bed but the SBR is no problem.