Schultz & larson M65DL Question.

[mikenbarb]

I inhereted a Shultz & Larsen M65DL rifle in .308 Norma magnum and cant find it in my books. Does anyone know the value of one in 95%+ condition(looks new)? It looks like a great gun and never knew my Grandfather owned it had it tucked away in the corner of his closet.WOW!

[Steven Mace]

mikenbarb, the Blue Book Of Gun Values - 29th Edition lists the follow information on the Schultz & Larson Model 65. They were offered in .308 Norma Mag., .358 Win. Mag., or 7x61mm S&H caliber. An improved Model 60, replaced by the Model 68DL. Made from 1960-1967.

100% - $675
98% - $575
95% - $475

When you actually find one selling at auction these are typically going for $700-$1000 depending on condition. Hope this helps!

Steve Mace

[mikenbarb]

Thanks Steve. I just almost fell over! I actually found the ORIGINAL reciept for this when he bought it. Would you believe that he paid $249.00 for it back in the early 60's? Wow, Thats so cool that he had the reciept for it with the rest of his gun paperwork. And I cant believe he never even showed me this one. I think he forgot that he even had it and was burried in back of a bunch of other things. Good thing was it was greased down and I assume he planned on storing it for a long time if he did that. Most of his guns were tools and he used them but took good care of them and cleaned and oiled them after every use. He taught me well. Thanks again and you made my day. I was thinking it wasnt worth that much and had my fingers crossed. Mike
The ammo is EXPENSIVE !

[Jim Watson]

Ammo is as readily handloaded as anything else.
.308 Norma is so close to the .30-338 wildcat that you can use cheap American brass. Ken Waters said .338 Win necked down comes out a little short (which will just delay the first trimming a couple of shots) and did not see the point. But Norma was less expensive in those days.

Ought to be great with some of those TUGs.

[Scorch]

actually found the ORIGINAL reciept for this when he bought it. Would you believe that he paid $249.00 for it back in the early 60's?

Put that in perspective: gas cost 25 cents/gallon, bread was 35 cents/loaf, ground round was 50 cents/lb, and NY steaks were $1.25/lb. So he payed the equivalent of about $1400 in todays dollars.

The 308 Norma Mag hit the market right after Winchester brought out the 264 WinMag, 338 WinMag and 458 WinMag, but before Winchester could get to market with the 300 WinMag. Some folks think that the 308 Norma Mag is what Winchester wanted to bring out as the 300 WinMag, but rather than just match the new cartridge they had to beat its ballistics. So we have all of the 2.5" Winchester Mags except for the 300 WinMag, which is about 1/8" longer. But for all intents and purposes, the performance of the two is the same.

[Jim Watson]

Which brings up a question I have never seen a straight answer to:
Why did Winchester bring out a line of short magnums?
They had built .300 and .375 H&H Magnum Model 70s for years, the guns had room for full length rounds. A full length .264 would have been even more over bore capacity at 2.85", but the .300, .338, and .458 would have been reasonable at standard H&H length. As much so as a .300 or .340 Weatherby or .458 Lott, anyhow.

[Scorch]

I would guess that it had more to do with the powders available at that time than the length of the action. For example, I owned a Rem 700 in 8mm Rem Mag in the mid-1980s. Performance was so-so with 220 gr bullets and H450 (3050 fps, loaded HOT), but that was about the slowest powder available at the time. With my 375 H&H loaded with IMR4350, you could shake the case and hear the powder rattle around on the inside, but I was almost at max load. Nowadays we have H1000, Retumbo, IMR7828, BMG50, and a bunch of other powders that are best suited at launching very large bullets from very large cases. I have noticed a few of the full-length magnums are picking up several hundred fps over their max loads of 20 years ago, due mostly to the newer powders.

[mikenbarb]

Jim, Im gonna absolutely reload for this one. I gotta find the brass first. I havnt ever seen a 308 Norma mag before. Do they look like a standard .308 round? I just got back from the range a little while ago and those things are incredible! I cant believe that they got lost in a time capsule somewhere and think there is a market in this country for them. they loved 70.5 grains of 4350.They just cut a ragged hole @ 125yds. Im going to load up some with Varget tonight. Im going to my friends sometime this week and send them thru a chrony and see what the real deal is. And so far my favorites are my 257 Roberts, 300 win.mag. and my "06" but depending how this one shoots, it may change soon.

[Jim Watson]

I havnt ever seen a 308 Norma mag before. Do they look like a standard .308 round?

.308 Norma MAGNUM is a belted magnum with 2.56" case length. It is not a bit like a .308 Winchester except for using the same diameter bullet.

Norma designed it so as to be a reasonable conversion for a .30-06 by rechambering, enlarging the bolt face, and reworking the magazine rails. It is as big as they thought would be safe in a 1903 Springfield barrel profile. When it came out in 1960, sporterizing Springfield was a reasonable thing to do, although now it would have the surplus collectors in a tizzy.

Varget will be too fast a powder for best speed, although it might be accurate, just by luck.

[mikenbarb]

I have no clue with these old timer bullets. What would be a good slow powder for them with that funny point. I still dont understand the reason for that. I e-mailed Brenneke today for some data on them.

[Jim Watson]

If you were getting good shooting with 70.5 gr of 4350, there is no need to change except curiosity. Might try some 4831; I'd use H4831SC.

Not a popular caliber, it is hard to find data for newer powders; there is some Accurate Arms data but no Vihtavuori or Alliant in their material.

Note that the Schultz & Larsen is a rear locking bolt action. It is strong enough to take the pressure, but there will be more case stretch than with a front lockup. If you want expensive Norma or troublesome reformed Winchester brass to last, keep the loads conservative.

[Steven Mace]

Mike, what weight of bullets do you plan on loading for your .308 Norma Mag.?

Steve Mace

[30 Newton]

Steve Mace and others,

Jumped on here for the Schultz & Larsen stuff. If you inherited one, Steve, you are a lucky man. I have two, a Mod. 60 in 7 x 61 Sharpe & Hart purchased 44 years ago next month and a more recently acquired Mod. 68DL in 356 Norma Mag. I wouldn't part with either one for love nor money and wouldn't mind finding one in 308 Norma Mag. myself. A 458 Winchester would also be welcome. It makes a terffice woodchuck rifle as there is nothing left to bury!

Some folks seem to feel that Norma brass is expensive. I still have sixty rounds of new Norma 7 x 61 S&H brass acquired with my rifle and recently went looking for more because I've begun to shoot a lot more again lately. Midway was a disappointment at $40.49 per 20 from Quality Cartridge, a firm I had never heard of. It might be good but I can't say. But I stumbled onto an advertisment for Huntington's from Oroville, CA. stating they had 7 x 61 S&H brass. For you young bucks this outfit is run by the family of the late Fred Huntington of RCBS fame. So I gave them a call. How about 140 cases for $137.87 postpaid..... and its good Norma brass!!! You might give them a try for 308 Norma as well. I'll try to give you some loading suggestions as soon as my stuff is dug out of storage. You may be surprised to learn that the loads and ballistics for your 308 Norma Mag. are almost the exact same as for my ancient 30 Newton. Both are darn good cartridges, which is why I'd love to find a Shultz & Larsen in 308 Norma Mag.

Best of luck, 30 Newton

[mikenbarb]

< I inhereted it 30Newton. Its a Schultz & Larson 308 Norma Mag.a d my G-Pa had it hidden in his closet soaked in grease. Noone knew he had it and I dont even think he did. It looks like it was long forgoten and was burried in there for a long time. Some of the gun books by it were from 1965,67 and 1969. Thanks for the info on cases. I will contact them tommorow.

Steven M, Im going to be using Brenneke Torpedo's in 180 gr. Its a cool old book bullet that I came across when helping a friend thats a smitty clean his rooms out. He's got about 40-50 years of accumulated stuff stacked to the ceiling and its a time consuming process. But the goodies I get are worth it.

[Steven Mace]

mikenbarb, I would recommend contacting Brennke at [email protected] to find out if they have any load recommendations using their 180 gr. TUG in a .308 Norma case. I didn't seeing anything on their website listing that caliber.

Steve Mace

[mikenbarb]

Bullet and load data from Brenneke is on the way! I contacted them and they were gret in helping me with question I had. The Torpedo bullets(TUG,Etc.) are still made today and they are EXPENSIVE! So far I have gotten extreme accuracy(ragged hole@100)from these and still working on my loads. I will post data when I get it from them.