Win. Model 97 Military Riot/Trench Gun

Lurch37 · February 10, 2008, 08:20 AM

I posted this once before but have now aquired the serial number and reworded the title in hopes of attracting a bit more info. To those who responded to my first inquiry, and to those who may respond to this one, I thank you.

I'm looking at buying this Model 97, but the seller and I don't really know a fair value. The gun has the US/flaming bomb stamp on the left side of the receiver and also the flaming bomb on the top of the barrel.

My question is, did the U.S. Government stamp these insignia on both trench guns and riot guns?

The shotgun has no heat shield or bayonet mount and doesn't look like it ever did so I'm assuming its a Military Riot Shotgun or was there such a thing?

The serial number is: 928072

Thoughts?
__________________

nate45 · February 10, 2008, 08:59 AM

According to the serial # you provided it was made in 1947.

Value about a $1000 for a WW2 to Veitnam era rework version to over $3,500 for a excellent condition blue World War I issue.

I tried to find out about the heat shield and bayonet lug, but have not come up with anything. I seem to recall reading somewhere about ones for guard duty and MP's not having the heat sheild but I'm not sure.
They could also possibly have been removed during an arsenal rework.

paul salchow · February 10, 2008, 02:25 PM

I have seen a few 97 trench org. and shop builds but i don't know value on any of these.
I have a friend who deals with these if it helps, Brian Dick owner of BDL LTD.
He and his wife have a web site, he has helped me out when i've needed it.

Tom Doniphon · February 11, 2008, 06:33 PM

The serial number is in the range of most WW2 M97 Military riot guns.

If it's a true Military riot gun, it will NOT have the three transverse grooves on the underside of the barrel near the muzzle for attachment of the trench gun bayonet adaptor. It should also have a "WB" cartouched stock with ordnance crossed cannons mark.

Most of the Military riot M97s also have an open flame (as opposed to the closed flame) on the top of the barrel. And, most WW2 M97 riots are only marked with a "US" on the left side of the receiver and no flaming bomb. However, I have seen a few that also had the flaming bomb like the gun you describe. The barrel should also be marked "CYL".

One other thing. Look on the underside of the barrel near the receiver for the barrel date. It's a two digit number (like 40 or 41). It's sometimes hard to see because the magazine tube is in the way. You may have to use a flashlight to see it.

Lurch37 · February 12, 2008, 12:04 AM

Thanks for the replies guys, and Tom I will look at those areas again closer and appreciate the suggestions.

Lurch37 · February 12, 2008, 10:57 PM

Tom I went and looked at the 97 again today and here is what I found:

1. I found no grooves at all anywhere on the underside of the barrel near the muzzle.

2. I did NOT find a WB cartouche on the stock and it seems to have been refinished at some time.

3. The flame on top of the barrel is open as you say, as in a flame on top of the little bomb or ball.

4. There is only a U S on the side of the receiver and nothing else.

5. The barrel is marked as having a cyl choke.

6. I couldnt make out any 40 or 41 but it is very dark and dirty there.

My research taken from the 28th edition of the Blue Book gives it a manufacture date of 1941. There is a special area for Trench/Riot Gun serial numbers that I found.

So far I'm thinking it's a Original Military Riot Shotgun, albeit with a refinished stock.

Rdavis · February 13, 2008, 09:05 PM

My model 12 riot was made in approx 1947? If someone could look it up for me that would be great. #977200

As far as I know this gun is original as they come as my father bought it in about 1948.

The stock is stamped WB inside a rectangular box with the crossed cannons??(hard to see) right below.
Receiver below the ejection port is stamped U. S. with the flaming bomb next to it. The top of the barrel next to the receiver has the flaming bomb stamp along with a WP inside a circle. I presume this stands for "winchester Proof" This mark is also on top of the receiver, as this is a take down gun.
The barrel is marked as follows.

MADE IN NEW HAVEN CONN. U.S. OF AMERICA _ WINCHESTER_
-----WINCHESTER PROOF STEEL---- --TRADE MARK---

MODEL 12-12 GA.-2 3/4 CHAM.
CYL

I agree as you have concluded you have a ww2 era model 97 riot gun.

Sure would like to have one to compliment my model 12 riot!

Lurch37 · February 14, 2008, 02:01 PM

Rdavis...according to my Blue Book your Model 12 Riot dates to a 1942 manufacture...the range is 961934-1001014 for that year.

Rdavis · February 14, 2008, 08:18 PM

Thanks for the info! I like 1942 better than 47. Actually produced during the war. Thanks agian

Tom Doniphon · February 16, 2008, 01:57 PM

Lurch37, your gun does sound like a WW2 US Military riot gun. The "U.S." only marked receiver would be correct for a gun that early.

Rdavis, your Model 12 also is a WW2 riot gun. Most of them fall into the same serial number range as your shotgun and were made around 1942. The barrel on your gun should be marked just like the Model 97 with a two digit date (e.g., 42 or 43) on the underside of the barrel near the receiver extension. It's difficult to see because the magazine tube is often in the way. If you can't see it, shine a flashlight in between the barrel and mag tube.

Can either of you post photos?

Zombie Steve · February 16, 2008, 06:36 PM

The flaming bomb is Rock Island Arsenal's mark. If it has more than one, it may have been sent back to be re-worked.

If only it could talk...

Lurch37 · February 17, 2008, 10:59 AM

Tom, I had to put the 97 Riot on layaway due to the fact that a NIB Colt Trooper, with the electroless finish no less, was shown to me as I was inspecting the 97 that day. Damn I hate those little ponies!

Maybe I can sweet talk the shop owner and see if he would let me snap a few pics of the 97 to post here.

loun222 · March 4, 2008, 12:05 PM

I have recently acquired a Trench and Riot. I am trying to find out some information and an approximate value. I am listing all I know.

1. Left side barrel Patent dates starting Nov 25,90 ending July 5,10.

2. Top of barrel P with circle around it.

3.WP with circle around it on top of barrel and top of receiver.

4.Butt plate-Winchester repeating

5. US with closed flaming bomb on receiver

6. Serial number E
937139 on bottom of receiver

7. Three grooves underside of barrel at end.

Tom Doniphon · March 4, 2008, 02:24 PM

There should be an ordnance bomb mark on top of the barrel just above the encircled W/P Winchester proof mark.

Barrels with a P in an oval were replacement barrels.

loun222 · March 15, 2008, 09:22 AM

Does the replacement barrel decrease the over all value of the gun?

Tommy Vercetti · March 15, 2008, 10:32 AM

I'm pretty sure the Winchester was the first shotgun made for use with the new fangled smokeless powder

useless trivia you may never need

February 10, 2008, 08:20 AM	#1
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 944	Win. Model 97 Military Riot/Trench Gun I posted this once before but have now aquired the serial number and reworded the title in hopes of attracting a bit more info. To those who responded to my first inquiry, and to those who may respond to this one, I thank you. I'm looking at buying this Model 97, but the seller and I don't really know a fair value. The gun has the US/flaming bomb stamp on the left side of the receiver and also the flaming bomb on the top of the barrel. My question is, did the U.S. Government stamp these insignia on both trench guns and riot guns? The shotgun has no heat shield or bayonet mount and doesn't look like it ever did so I'm assuming its a Military Riot Shotgun or was there such a thing? The serial number is: 928072 Thoughts? __________________ __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

February 10, 2008, 08:59 AM	#2
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	According to the serial # you provided it was made in 1947. Value about a $1000 for a WW2 to Veitnam era rework version to over $3,500 for a excellent condition blue World War I issue. I tried to find out about the heat shield and bayonet lug, but have not come up with anything. I seem to recall reading somewhere about ones for guard duty and MP's not having the heat sheild but I'm not sure. They could also possibly have been removed during an arsenal rework. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

February 10, 2008, 02:25 PM	#3
paul salchow Member Join Date: July 2, 2004 Posts: 64	I have seen a few 97 trench org. and shop builds but i don't know value on any of these. I have a friend who deals with these if it helps, Brian Dick owner of BDL LTD. He and his wife have a web site, he has helped me out when i've needed it. __________________ simmons gun repair/law enforcement

February 11, 2008, 06:33 PM	#4
Tom Doniphon Member Join Date: February 4, 2008 Posts: 27	WW2 M97 Riot Guns The serial number is in the range of most WW2 M97 Military riot guns. If it's a true Military riot gun, it will NOT have the three transverse grooves on the underside of the barrel near the muzzle for attachment of the trench gun bayonet adaptor. It should also have a "WB" cartouched stock with ordnance crossed cannons mark. Most of the Military riot M97s also have an open flame (as opposed to the closed flame) on the top of the barrel. And, most WW2 M97 riots are only marked with a "US" on the left side of the receiver and no flaming bomb. However, I have seen a few that also had the flaming bomb like the gun you describe. The barrel should also be marked "CYL". One other thing. Look on the underside of the barrel near the receiver for the barrel date. It's a two digit number (like 40 or 41). It's sometimes hard to see because the magazine tube is in the way. You may have to use a flashlight to see it.

February 12, 2008, 12:04 AM	#5
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 944	Thanks for the replies guys, and Tom I will look at those areas again closer and appreciate the suggestions. __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

February 12, 2008, 10:57 PM	#6
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 944	Tom I went and looked at the 97 again today and here is what I found: 1. I found no grooves at all anywhere on the underside of the barrel near the muzzle. 2. I did NOT find a WB cartouche on the stock and it seems to have been refinished at some time. 3. The flame on top of the barrel is open as you say, as in a flame on top of the little bomb or ball. 4. There is only a U S on the side of the receiver and nothing else. 5. The barrel is marked as having a cyl choke. 6. I couldnt make out any 40 or 41 but it is very dark and dirty there. My research taken from the 28th edition of the Blue Book gives it a manufacture date of 1941. There is a special area for Trench/Riot Gun serial numbers that I found. So far I'm thinking it's a Original Military Riot Shotgun, albeit with a refinished stock. __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

February 13, 2008, 09:05 PM	#7
Rdavis Junior Member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Location: West texas Posts: 3	My model 12 riot was made in approx 1947? If someone could look it up for me that would be great. #977200 As far as I know this gun is original as they come as my father bought it in about 1948. The stock is stamped WB inside a rectangular box with the crossed cannons??(hard to see) right below. Receiver below the ejection port is stamped U. S. with the flaming bomb next to it. The top of the barrel next to the receiver has the flaming bomb stamp along with a WP inside a circle. I presume this stands for "winchester Proof" This mark is also on top of the receiver, as this is a take down gun. The barrel is marked as follows. MADE IN NEW HAVEN CONN. U.S. OF AMERICA _ WINCHESTER_ -----WINCHESTER PROOF STEEL---- --TRADE MARK--- MODEL 12-12 GA.-2 3/4 CHAM. CYL I agree as you have concluded you have a ww2 era model 97 riot gun. Sure would like to have one to compliment my model 12 riot!

February 14, 2008, 02:01 PM	#8
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 944	Rdavis...according to my Blue Book your Model 12 Riot dates to a 1942 manufacture...the range is 961934-1001014 for that year. __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

February 14, 2008, 08:18 PM	#9
Rdavis Junior Member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Location: West texas Posts: 3	Thanks for the info! I like 1942 better than 47. Actually produced during the war. Thanks agian

February 16, 2008, 01:57 PM	#10
Tom Doniphon Member Join Date: February 4, 2008 Posts: 27	Model 97 riot & Model 12 riot Lurch37, your gun does sound like a WW2 US Military riot gun. The "U.S." only marked receiver would be correct for a gun that early. Rdavis, your Model 12 also is a WW2 riot gun. Most of them fall into the same serial number range as your shotgun and were made around 1942. The barrel on your gun should be marked just like the Model 97 with a two digit date (e.g., 42 or 43) on the underside of the barrel near the receiver extension. It's difficult to see because the magazine tube is often in the way. If you can't see it, shine a flashlight in between the barrel and mag tube. Can either of you post photos?

February 16, 2008, 06:36 PM	#11
Zombie Steve Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Old Colorado City Posts: 527	The flaming bomb is Rock Island Arsenal's mark. If it has more than one, it may have been sent back to be re-worked. If only it could talk...

February 17, 2008, 10:59 AM	#12
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 944	Tom, I had to put the 97 Riot on layaway due to the fact that a NIB Colt Trooper, with the electroless finish no less, was shown to me as I was inspecting the 97 that day. Damn I hate those little ponies! Maybe I can sweet talk the shop owner and see if he would let me snap a few pics of the 97 to post here. __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

March 4, 2008, 12:05 PM	#13
loun222 Junior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 5	Trench and Riot I have recently acquired a Trench and Riot. I am trying to find out some information and an approximate value. I am listing all I know. 1. Left side barrel Patent dates starting Nov 25,90 ending July 5,10. 2. Top of barrel P with circle around it. 3.WP with circle around it on top of barrel and top of receiver. 4.Butt plate-Winchester repeating 5. US with closed flaming bomb on receiver 6. Serial number E 937139 on bottom of receiver 7. Three grooves underside of barrel at end.

March 4, 2008, 02:24 PM	#14
Tom Doniphon Member Join Date: February 4, 2008 Posts: 27	Barrel Marks There should be an ordnance bomb mark on top of the barrel just above the encircled W/P Winchester proof mark. Barrels with a P in an oval were replacement barrels.

March 15, 2008, 09:22 AM	#15
loun222 Junior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 5	Trench and Riot again Does the replacement barrel decrease the over all value of the gun?

March 15, 2008, 10:32 AM	#16
Tommy Vercetti Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2004 Location: Fairhope, Alabama Posts: 1,119	I'm pretty sure the Winchester was the first shotgun made for use with the new fangled smokeless powder useless trivia you may never need __________________ "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." Sinclair Lewis, (It Can't Happen Here, 1935) "Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero