Why a shotgun?

[DasBoot]

Many replies regarding what to use in the event of a home invasion favor the use of a shotgun.
Why?
One pro...the BG MIGHT hear you crank a round into the chamber.
That's good.
He might NOT hear it also.
Another pro.....far more area covered upon releasing a shot.
Also good.
One more.....the sheer visual intimidation of a 12g pointed in his direction might make for a hasty retreat.
However, me personally, I don't think I would be comfortable OR as effective sneaking about in the dark, through doorways and around corners, with a 3ft+ weapon in my hands.
What do I do when I round a corner and come face to face with this bum?
Let one go into the ceiling?
And if I'm pointing it straight ahead, it can be grabbed and used against me.
What if I have to swing around suddenly in a narrow space?
Too many negative possibilities for me.
If I can see the BG(s) and/or I have time to get into a defensive position I might opt for a SG, but in the dark, around the house, I'll stick w/a handgun.
If I'm missing something, please educate me.
Just my 2 cents.

[281 Quad Cam]

If I were you I would keep the HD shotgun "Cranked" and loaded.

I would not make a sound outside of flicking the safety off.
While I have heard stories of the sound of a racking shotgun scaring off criminals... I would not throw away all sense of reason and logic for these stories.

THE REASON PEOPLE LIKE SHOTGUNS FOR HOME DEFENSE. Has nothing to do with sounds or shot patterns... It has everything to do with stopping power. Stopping power may not exist for handguns, and it may be somewhat elusive with rifle calibres. But a 12 guage shotgun is the beginning of the realm where you can feel confident that 1 or 2 decent hits will stop any human being.

Sneaking around the house? You may want to largely re-think your plan. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that either. I would guard an area which gave me an advantage. If you have children on the other side of the house, I can see the issue, otherwise... try not to pull any Rambo junk.

In the end you'll just have to pick what gun works best for your situation in your house. But the shotgun is one of the only weapon that can be called an "attack stopper" with any degree of confidence.

[brickeyee]

Shot spread at typical 'in house' distances is not very large at all.
Smaller shot (BB or so) at close range remains bunched and can deliver a hell of a wound.
The biggest problem is moving around in a confined space with a weapon with a minimum barrel length of 18 inches.

[DasBoot]

I do have a child at the other end of the house.
So, if I hear unfamiliar sounds/noises, that's the first direction I'm heading in.

[Dwight55]

DasBoot, . . . the HD shotgun is simply for stopping power. At HD distances, you are shooting a column of lead that is not going to spread more than a few inches at best, and in most circumstances, . . . just make one huge wound.

Very few individuals survive a COM shot from a 12ga at less than 20 feet, whether it is #6 bird shot or 00 buck or slug, . . . too much damage will be done, . . . and if it is two shots, . . . the guy will need a preacher, priest, or rabbi instead of a surgeon.

Stay in your room, . . . call the cops, . . . let them do what they get paid for. Tell them where you are, . . . where your child is, . . . and that you believe the intruder is ______________________ .

May god bless,
Dwight

[45-70]

In addition, just about everyone can hit better with a long gun than a handgun.

Someone is going to take it away from you? Well, you have the handle part, and they have the business end. The first thing I will do with my 12-guage when someone tries to grab it, is jam it into their face, then I if got no face contact, I'll pull back on the handle part real hard. If they don't let go, where are they? Arms out in front of them, staring down the business end, which, believe me, is just about to go BOOM. If they let go, they are now the perfect target. It's even more likely to be fun for you if you are using a semi-auto, 'cause you can make it go boom more often.

But don't believe the part about the load spreading out at across-the-room distances. It usually won't. Pattern your shot gun at the distances in your house. You probably will have a hard time finding a pattern more than 3-4 inches, depending on the size of your "castle." Even 1 or 2 inches may be the most in a lot of rooms.

[Para Bellum]

Another pro.....far more area covered upon releasing a shot.
Also good.

wrong. go to the range and test the patterns. The spread with 00 Buck ist about 10cm (4") every 10m (10yds)

One more.....the sheer visual intimidation of a 12g pointed in his direction might make for a hasty retreat.

So you think that any invader would be less scared by a .22 barrel?
If a .22 doesn't scare you, a 12ga won't either. IMHO relying on the scaring look of a gun is just not using a gun properly.

And IMHO a .223 semiauto rifle with M193, TAP or Federal 223T3 ammo is what's best for home defense. Good terminal ballistics, no overpenetration, fast follow-ups and surgical accuracy. Just imagine only one pellet from your shotgun ovepenetrating, hitting a family member or neighbor...

[leadcounsel]

Like any tool, you have to choose the right tool for the job. In the arena of home defense as the job, everybody's situation is different.

While I agree that carbines and shotguns are great for home defense they aren't always the perfect weapon. Often a handgun serves as a better tool. Handguns are more agile in confined places (small apartments, hallways with doors on either side, etc.) and allow the manipulation of other things with a persons free hand (light switches, phones, picking up small kids or pets, opening a window to escape, locking a door, etc.).

But, using a handgun assumes you need to be "clearing your house" so to speak. Unless absolutely necessary (such as going to protect little Johnny and Susy), I think it's a huge mistake.

Most people agree that the BEST tactic to use if you have a home invasion is to barricade yourself in a single room, train your weapon on the door, and call the police. In this instance, rapid and powerful firepower is ideal. The shotgun serves this purpose well. There's no maneuvering through tight corners or other stuff.

Edited to add:

Guns should be determined for use based on their qualities such as stopping power, reliability, ease of use, etc. but NOT on their scary appearance or the sound they make when you "cock" or "rack" a shell. Don't count on "scaring" the bad guy. While you're cocking your weapon he may be shooting you dead.

MY personal home defense weapon is the handgun for speed and ease and reliablity. It stays hidden in the nightstand and is accessable immediately with one hand. I can easily check on suspect noises in the night that don't sound like a burglar, but I won't sleep well unless I check and I'm not going to call the police for a small noise. However, if the noise turns out to be not-so-innocent, then I'm barricading myself in my room and getting the shotgun or AR15 out and calling the police.

[281 Quad Cam]

I used to have a Remington 870 under the bed.

Now i have an AR-15 16"

Small package with more capacity... But definatly less power.

Honestly I didn't think long and hard about it, and now I wonder if I should have kept the shotgun... But from what I hear .223 is good because it penetrates less than most rifles indoors. And a good .223 defense load will fragment reliably.

[ddskehan]

I also have a child across my house. If someone comes in, that's where i'm going. not because i'm brave, but because of her. I use a glock 27, but my wife will be behind me with the 870 full of buckshot. The reason I carry a sub glock is because of a shotguns length. I live in massachusetts and my house is full of small rooms and corridors. If the BG got a hold of the barrel on the shotgun your screwed. open floor plans like in the south are best IMO for shotguns. Small cramped houses I would go with a pistol. It's all about the enviroment your in. I won't be clearing my house with the pistol. Just going to my daughters room. search and destroy i'll leave to the police. I was in the Army and I no longer want to do the search part.

[duck911]

It's been touched on, but here's my .02:

1) DO NOT rack the slide on your shotgun. First, a round should already be loaded in the chamber. Second, you will lose your element of surprise. The noise may simply serve to alert the BG to your location.

2) As discussed, no sneaking around the house! (to check on kids may be one exception). Barracade youself and call 911. If you really want to be situationally prepared, you should always have a cell phone along with a home phone in your room. This way, if the BG takes the home phone receiver off the hook downstairs or in the next room, you can still call 911.

In short, if you know there is an invader, hide in a strong defensive position, call 911, and be ready to shoot.

ps- I'd much prefer a pump shotgun to semi-auto one in this scenario

[Bill DeShivs]

I have cut clean 1/4" holes in 1/4" steel plate at 20 feet with a .223. The bullets exited with enough force to ruin a brick wall behind the plate. Unless using frangible ammunition, the .223 is not a good choice if overpenetration is an issue.
Bill

[281 Quad Cam]

I have cut clean 1/4" holes in 1/4" steel plate at 20 feet with a .223. The bullets exited with enough force to ruin a brick wall behind the plate. Unless using frangible ammunition, the .223 is not a good choice if overpenetration is an issue.
Bill

What loading?

A 62gr M855 and a 55gr are different animals... Some civilian defense rounds with lower weights are even more likely to keyhole and be stopped by a few walls.

[Bill DeShivs]

I don't remember. It was in 1974-75. All I know is we used the steel plate in the basement of the gunshop to stop .38 wadcutters. When the shop got an AR 180 in, we snuck down there one night and shot a couple of mags at a silhouette target taped to the plate. The next day the owner discovered the damage. I saw the plate, and the damage to the brick wall behind it looked like someone had been hitting the wall with a pickaxe.
I still think .223 is way too overpenetrative in an urban scenario.
Bill

[guntotin_fool]

well a few points to ponder.


A "lite" shotgun load of 1 oz has 435 grains of lead going out the barrel. at about 1400 FPS. A .223 out of a 16 inch barrel is most likely 62 gr at 2400 fps. A 12 ga buckshot load of OO buck is, I believe, 9 .30 cal diam lead balls, with a total wieght of 1 3/8 oz. or approx 600 grains of lead leaving the barrel at about 1250 Fps. This very nearly equals ALL FIVE shots from a j frame loaded with 125 grainers of +P 38 ammo all at the same time, with 4, 5, or more instant reloads waiting.

What stops people from continuing a fight are hits to the CNS or loss of blood or breakdowns in the skeletal system severe enough to supprt further offensive attacks. Frontal shotguns blasts have a very good chance of reaching the CNS. Launch a load of buckshot at a standing person and odds greatly increase that you will hit the spinal column with one pellet with enough force to disrupt bodily actions. IF not, you will present enough aeration of the body as to increase the speed of exinguination or bleed out..
Finally if you can do that, and you hit lower, most likely you can create a breakdown of eitheer the pelvic structure or hips or break a thigh bone which will prevent the BG from pressing on his attack to you. slugs will lower the number of preforations one makes with each shot, but instead of 3/8 or smaller holes, the holes are now 7/8 or so in diameter.

[leadcounsel]

Any effective defensive load in any caliber is bound to overpenetrate common things like drywall, windows, house doors, etc. You need to be aware of this and just account for every shot.

Handgun rounds punch through walls just like slugs, .223, buckshot, etc.

For an interesting study of what ammo does to walls, see this site: Ammo routinely punches through mutliple layers of drywall.

www.boxotruth.com

[dctag]

Erick of course is right on. Everyone who thinks they know how a shotgun patterns should go buy some butcher paper and head to the range to pattern it. Most of you will be surprised how little the spread is in an indoors situation. Pattern your gun with your defense loads every five yards out to 30 yards or so and you will know your shotguns abilities. If you have let Hans Vang sell you a barrel you might pattern it out farther. Also find out how to shoot slugs. Basically practice, practice, and practice some more.

The shotgun is a very misunderstood weapon and I would hope that whenever you get the chance that you take some training. Last year I took a Rob Haught shotgun class put on by 10-8 and it was excellent. I improved a ton and learned a lot about the capabilities and handicaps of the shotgun.

-David

[Mannlicher]

As some have opined, one of the most talked about things in firearms BBS forums is the biz of 'the sound of racking a shell into your 12 ga'.
I have always thought this was a bad idea. Its not prudent to let an intruder know where you are, or what your status is. Letting him get close enough to be intimidated by the size of your johnson is not prudent either.
I prefer a platform other than a shotty for Close encounters, and I darn sure would not advertise where I was, what I was armed with or what my intentions were.
In FL, if he is in my house, uninvited, in the middle of the night, its my decision as to what happens.
Don't obsess over all the boogymen of firearms forums. Over penetration, what load will get you in trouble, to shoot or not to shoot, are all much discussed issues. In the end, you need to decide what works best for you. In time of extreme need, none of the guys here will be by your side to back you up.

[garryc]

As far as the length of the shotgun, it is not really an issue. I could disarm someone much easier if they have a handgun rather than a properly deployed shotgun. That butt stock acts as an anchor when its tucked under the arm pit. If a scum bag grabs it from the side you simply pivot on his hand and nail him.

[ATW525]

What do I do when I round a corner and come face to face with this bum?
Let one go into the ceiling?

Is there a reason you'd carry it with the muzzle pointing towards the ceiling? A muzzle down carry tends to be harder to block and even if they do grab it you have a good chance of being to let one go into their lower extremities.

[ddelange]

I recently retired my 12ga Moss 590A1, with a SureFire tac light forend as my primary home defense weapon, in favor of a Colt M4, fitted with a SureFire Millenium vertical grip/tactical light (I'm still taking hell from my wife for dishing out $800 for a LIGHT -- she's right, I must be mad), and an Aimpoint sight. However, for me the decreased weight of the M4 makes a huge difference because in a home invasion scenario, I would have to leave my room to protect the kids upstairs. Lugging the shotgun around at low ready, and going from room to room takes a physical toll on mortals like me. I also find the M4 more versatile and easy to use when navigating close quarters.

Finally, because the #1 Buck I kept loaded in the tube will really only make a rathole sized wound channel through the BG at close distances; I feel fine relying on 5.56mm NATO FMJ 55gr M193, which will enter, break apart at the cannuler and rotate through the torso. The rear of bullet fragments into the temporary cavity, causing severe damage to vital organs/arteries that will cause massive bleeding. Although denigrated by some on the list in many threads currently running, I'm fully confident with the 5.56mm NATO's lethality (nearly the equal of a 12ga at home invasion ranges) in close ranges, as well as in the field at up to 200m for me.

I use to be on an email list where Greg Hamilton was a regular contributor. One of the biggest flame wars was SG vs. AR15 shorty/M4 for home defense. He is certainly one of the best in terms of tactical ability and knowledge. It was that debate where his comments began to sink in that maybe I could defend my home better, considering my abilities and needs, than my SG. I've finally taken his route by going with the M4 (after the sunset of the AWB) for primary home defense weapon. However, I, and nobody on the list should feel underarmed with a SG as long as you're trained with its use and are aware of its limitations.

I would be interested in knowing what firearm (handgun or long gun), if any, people would take to go investigate a bump in the night, or broken glass. . . . sounds like a good poll question.

[Topthis]

Don't own a Shotgun, but for HD...there is no doubt that I would rather have a 12ga than any and all of my handguns combined...hmmmm, I guess then I should go out and buy me one.

[wolfdog45]

I believe that the home owner should study his/her house and know every room and distance that the hallway's are and where all window's are also.
Then if the home owner uses a shotgun he/she should practice manuvering around in the house with it (unloaded of course).
If you are trained correctly on how to use a HD shotgun you will not have to worry about the intruder getting your weapon and using it against you.
Also you need to know where the window's are at all times even if the lights are off and you cannot see where they are look around your house download everything that is in your house into your brain, Like ok the chair is over there and the window is beside the chair on the left. If you have the layout of your house memorized you will be able to manuver around and not worry about running into any thing. The home owner should alway's know the layout of his/her home because the BG does not know it like the owner does.
Presuming that the intruder has been in the house before which is highly unlikely. Commenly the intruder has never been in the house so therefore you automatically have the advantage.
Even if the intruder at some point in time had ever been in your house you still have the advantage. The reason I mention that the intruder may have been in your house before is because that happened to a close friend of mine. He had a local furniture store deliver some furniture to his house one of the deliveres was eyeballing the place, That same guy came back about a week later and broke into my friends house, My friend heard the break in and grabbed his shotgun and called 911 ,the intruder (drunk and high on drugs) in the mean time fell over the couch he had delivered a week before and fell to the floor my friend held him at gun point till the cops arrived. The BG thought the couch was going to be where him and his deliverer partner had left it when they brought it out to my friends house. That goes to show that you need to know the layout of your home no matter what.

[U.S.SFC_RET]

+1 to wolfdog45
I totally agree. Know your own house.
It's the stuff between the ears that we should be debating.

[ddelange]

+1 to wolfdog45 as well.

I'll only add that I think if one chooses a SG, or any carbine or long gun, for home defense, it should be equipped with a tactical light. It's just as important as a hand held tac light for those who rely on a handgun for home defense. You absolutely need to I.D. your target before you aim a SG, or shoot it at an intruder. It'd be a tragedy to shoot that drunk home invader in the dark, only to find out it's your wayward teenage son who decided to sneak out of the house and come back into the house much later in the evening, knocking things over and sounding like an intruder.

In Arizona, we have a strong Castle Law, so I can legally use lethal force against a home invader because the law presumes I'm acting in self-defense. However, I am still going to light em up before I decide to shoot/don't shoot.