Winchester name

Foxman · January 25, 2006, 10:57 AM

I have emailed The Olin corp at this address, with regard to them relicencing the Herstal people in Belgium to use the Winchester name on guns made elsewhere ( probably far east). I would suggest that as many as possible do the same. [email protected]
This is my bit FWIW

"I think bearing in mind Herstals cavalier attitude to both the history of the Winchester manufacture at the USRAC factory and also the complete indifference they have shown to the loss of Amercan citizens jobs in that same factory. It would be a complete travesty if the Olin Corporation was to renew their licence to use the Winchester brand name which has a large place in American history. Particularly as they will probably transfer the manufacture of guns to either China or India to which they will want to put the Winchester brand name. I am sure that vast majority of people in America would regard this as selling our history down the river.
Respectfully "

hksigwalther · January 25, 2006, 12:40 PM

IMO, I think FN's decision was sound on their part. Regardless of where your emotions lead you, you still have a business to run. If it does not make money for years and the future does not any brighter, you will eventually be broke. FN Herstal is a business and USRAC wasn't a mom and pop shop that's been in their family for generations. Pride and emotion don't pay bills.

Foxman · January 25, 2006, 07:28 PM

Herstals decision is understandable if they are unable to sell enough to cover costs and make a profit. But that is not the real situation here, this has to do with either taking the manufacturing to Belgium to provide more work there and to give complete control to them, or to manufacture in one of the low labour cost countries and make more money. They are of course free to make those decisions, but it does not mean that they should have the right to use the Winchester name. I have travelled and worked all over the world and had to make decisions which were at times difficult so I m no stranger to this. But I have had considerable experience dealing with both Belgian and French companies and have little liking for either. The only issue I'm raising is that of the continued use of the Winchester name and all that that carries with it.
If we continue this discussion on a non gun related subject it should be on the general part of the forum.

BPShunter · January 25, 2006, 09:44 PM

I completely agree foxman. The Winchester name has a very signifigant place in American history and should not be outsourced to some foreign plant that will produce an inferior product. Yes, Herstal has the right to shut down the plant but Olin also has the right to deny them the Winchester name. BTW, the big shots at Herstal are foolish if they think anyone is going to buy a Winchester product after this plant closing. The Model 94 and Model 70 are Winchesters bread and butter. I am writting Herstal a nasty little letter about that as well. Foxman, I will be also be emailing Olin. Or I might just take the letter to their HQ in person, I live about ten minutes away.

tINY · January 26, 2006, 04:17 AM

If it were me, I'd move the whole plant to a state better suited to manufacturing firearms. Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and a few others would be less expensive and less hassle to run a gun factory in.

-tINY

Jakes10mm · January 26, 2006, 09:54 PM

tINY....how much money do you have in the bank? Let's moved out southwest with the Winchester name and start manufacturing firearms.

What I'd give to be a millionaire today!

Limeyfellow · January 26, 2006, 10:32 PM

The other plants they have are in Belgium and Japan. They don't make any of their stuff in China or India and other really cheap and so-so quality manufacturing bases. People just weren't buying enough Winchesters to make it worth continueing the lines made at the US plant. You can't blame them that they don't want to go bankcrupt supporting a failure.

marks655 · January 26, 2006, 10:41 PM

Hard to believe a US investor or groups of investors would not have interest in the brand, and keeping the manufcaturing in the US ,even if not in a blue state.

joab · January 26, 2006, 10:52 PM

I am as sad to see a piece of history close down as anybody, but

Quote:

Herstals decision is understandable if they are unable to sell enough to cover costs and make a profit. But that is not the real situation here, this has to do with either taking the manufacturing to Belgium to provide more work there and to give complete control to them, or to manufacture in one of the low labour cost countries and make more money.

How do you know, have you seen the financial reports or projections for future sales versus future costs of business

Quote:

They are of course free to make those decisions, but it does not mean that they should have the right to use the Winchester name.

They own the Winchester name and so they do have the right to do whatever they want. If they want to market Winchester thongs for the working man they have that right

Quote:

The only issue I'm raising is that of the continued use of the Winchester name and all that that carries with it.

The Winchester name will go where the market takes it, no more no less

Quote:

If we continue this discussion on a non gun related subject it should be on the general part of the forum.

The forum actually employs moderators to make calls such as this.

tINY · January 27, 2006, 03:45 AM

FN Herstal does not own the Winchester name: Olin Corporation does. FN is manufacturing "Winchesters" under a liscense contract that it acquired when it bought US Repeating Arms Corporation. That contract is set to expire soon.

-tINY

johnbt · January 27, 2006, 03:19 PM

"Herstals decision is understandable if they are unable to sell enough to cover costs and make a profit."

Perfectly understandable. The head of FN Herstal has said they have been losing significant amounts of money in New Haven for years. As most of us realize, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. My only real question is why has it taken them this long to shutter the plant and cut their losses. Maybe they found out OLIN wasn't going to relicense them next year when the original 25-year agreement expired and decided to get a head start.

Who knows. Stay tuned.

BTW, I love my newly acquired made-in-Belgium 2003 Winchester SX-2 Waterfowl. If FN in Belgium was good enough to produce guns for John Browning, it's good enough for me.

John

DPris · January 27, 2006, 03:58 PM

And, there's the FN plant in South Carolina.....
Denis

joab · January 27, 2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Olin Corp. owns the Winchester brand name. In the late 1970s, after a massive strike by its machinists, Olin sold the plant to U.S. Repeating Arms along with the right to use the Winchester name until next year.

Herstal owns the Winchester name, until then they can do what they want to with it.
After that the market will take it where the market takes it. I'm thinking it will be along the lines of Schrade and nobody but a few purist will even know or care in a year

armedandsafe · January 27, 2006, 07:01 PM

Quote:

If it were me, I'd move the whole plant to a state better suited to manufacturing firearms. Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and a few others would be less expensive and less hassle to run a gun factory in.

-tINY

Maybe we could rent space from PMC/Eldorado? I wouldn't mind moving back to the town I was raised in.

http://www.pmcammo.com/about-pmc.php

Pops

tINY · January 28, 2006, 05:34 AM

Joab

I don't know the details of the agreement between Olin and USRAC. But, since the right expires, I have to believe that Olin (maker of Winchester ammunition) owns the name and is leasing it to USRAC for use on firearms. FN simply owns USRAC right now.

It won't matter too much. It's getting downright impossible to manufacture firearms in certain northeastern states. Union machiists are expensive and not terribly productive. And the politicians there are out to ban guns anyway.

If you want afffordable, well-made firearms, I'm afraid that the South and the West are were they need to be made here in the States.

-tINY

greg531mi · January 28, 2006, 05:58 AM

It won't matter too much. It's getting downright impossible to manufacture firearms in certain northeastern states. Union machiists are expensive and not terribly productive. And the politicians there are out to ban guns anyway.

If you want afffordable, well-made firearms, I'm afraid that the South and the West are were they need to be made here in the States.

As a CNC Machinist, it takes about 5 years to be a good machinist. Where would you get all those trained workers in Texas or anywhere in the South...
MircoTech knives moved from Florida to Pennsylvania, because they couldn't find any skilled machinist....
Also, the standard of living in the Northeast is very expensive, unions, not perfect, gives stability in the workforce, which experienced workers stay, which means better quality. Remington is having problems with their Kentucky plant, which makes the 710 and 597. Not all is quality, some is cost cutting, and design problems. They have had a lot of startup and growing pains with a new unskilled workforce. Would you buy a gun from a company with new machinist. A lot of problems happen, especially with new products.

joab · January 28, 2006, 08:43 AM

Quote:

I have to believe that Olin (maker of Winchester ammunition) owns the name and is leasing it to USRAC for use on firearms. FN simply owns USRAC right now.

Olin owns the Winchester name outright it leased it to Herstal so for all intents and purposes Herstal owns the Winchester name for one more year and can do what it wants with it, within the lease agreement, Which probably prohibits a Thongs for the Working Man line

Ruger4570 · January 28, 2006, 09:25 AM

It has always been my experience that if a company has good paying jobs the workmen will come to the jobs.Not the reverse of a company packing their bags and moving to a workforce. I have had more than one job where the company paid all my moving expenses to relocate. Ruger may be a good example, they moved to Prescott Arizona and found qualified machinists etc. Az has a LOT of very qualified mechanics as does all the SW states along with lower taxes, better weather and a Pro business attitude.

CuriousB! · January 28, 2006, 10:19 PM

Can I come work in the advertising department? I write pretty well and would like to see every house in America own a firearm.

DPris · January 29, 2006, 01:54 AM

Tweaking the ownership again, just slightly.

Herstal owns nothing. Herstal is the name of the town in Belgium where Fabrique Nationale (FN) is located. FN is owned by the Belgian government, not the town of Herstal.
We'll get this thing nailed down yet, by gum!

Denis

shecky · January 29, 2006, 02:26 AM

Moving to AZ or any other state won't help if the Winchester products just don't sell well enough. I suspect that may ultimately be their biggest problem.

joshua · January 29, 2006, 08:21 AM

All this talk with the Winchester name is making me sad. I hope whatever they decide with it doesn't put the next Winchesters in poor quality category. My first big game hunting rifle was a Win 70 Ranger and I had mixed results with it. Actually shot my first deer with it. I wonder how much it will cost to buy the Winchester name? Get the machining above standards and start putting out some models that will compete with Cooper Arms if not at the same level as Kimber rifles. I don't think it will be profitable just for the initial cost of using the name. josh

joab · January 29, 2006, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Herstal owns nothing. Herstal is the name of the town in Belgium where Fabrique Nationale (FN) is located. FN is owned by the Belgian government, not the town of Herstal.

Yes but the corporation that owns FN and USRA is the Herstal Group, or Herstal as it is being referred to here

tINY · January 30, 2006, 04:55 PM

Fine joab

You're right

we just want to make sure everybody understands the subtleties that you have a firm grasp on.

-tINY

joab · January 30, 2006, 07:17 PM

Personally I don't care if the name continues or not, if the building is gone so is the tradition.

I just hope the Bradys don't buy the thing and turn it into their national headquarters

January 25, 2006, 10:57 AM	#1
Foxman Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2005 Posts: 466	Winchester name I have emailed The Olin corp at this address, with regard to them relicencing the Herstal people in Belgium to use the Winchester name on guns made elsewhere ( probably far east). I would suggest that as many as possible do the same. [email protected] This is my bit FWIW "I think bearing in mind Herstals cavalier attitude to both the history of the Winchester manufacture at the USRAC factory and also the complete indifference they have shown to the loss of Amercan citizens jobs in that same factory. It would be a complete travesty if the Olin Corporation was to renew their licence to use the Winchester brand name which has a large place in American history. Particularly as they will probably transfer the manufacture of guns to either China or India to which they will want to put the Winchester brand name. I am sure that vast majority of people in America would regard this as selling our history down the river. Respectfully " __________________ Better the man suspected of being a fool keep his mouth shut, than to open it and remove all doubt.

January 25, 2006, 12:40 PM	#2
hksigwalther Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 1998 Location: NE OH, USA Posts: 3,198	IMO, I think FN's decision was sound on their part. Regardless of where your emotions lead you, you still have a business to run. If it does not make money for years and the future does not any brighter, you will eventually be broke. FN Herstal is a business and USRAC wasn't a mom and pop shop that's been in their family for generations. Pride and emotion don't pay bills. __________________ - Ron V.

January 25, 2006, 07:28 PM	#3
Foxman Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2005 Posts: 466	Herstals decision is understandable if they are unable to sell enough to cover costs and make a profit. But that is not the real situation here, this has to do with either taking the manufacturing to Belgium to provide more work there and to give complete control to them, or to manufacture in one of the low labour cost countries and make more money. They are of course free to make those decisions, but it does not mean that they should have the right to use the Winchester name. I have travelled and worked all over the world and had to make decisions which were at times difficult so I m no stranger to this. But I have had considerable experience dealing with both Belgian and French companies and have little liking for either. The only issue I'm raising is that of the continued use of the Winchester name and all that that carries with it. If we continue this discussion on a non gun related subject it should be on the general part of the forum. __________________ Better the man suspected of being a fool keep his mouth shut, than to open it and remove all doubt.

January 25, 2006, 09:44 PM	#4
BPShunter Member Join Date: January 7, 2006 Posts: 57	Right on Foxman I completely agree foxman. The Winchester name has a very signifigant place in American history and should not be outsourced to some foreign plant that will produce an inferior product. Yes, Herstal has the right to shut down the plant but Olin also has the right to deny them the Winchester name. BTW, the big shots at Herstal are foolish if they think anyone is going to buy a Winchester product after this plant closing. The Model 94 and Model 70 are Winchesters bread and butter. I am writting Herstal a nasty little letter about that as well. Foxman, I will be also be emailing Olin. Or I might just take the letter to their HQ in person, I live about ten minutes away.

January 26, 2006, 09:54 PM	#6
Jakes10mm Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 24	tINY tINY....how much money do you have in the bank? Let's moved out southwest with the Winchester name and start manufacturing firearms. What I'd give to be a millionaire today!

January 26, 2006, 04:17 AM	#5
tINY Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2005 Location: Orygun Posts: 2,589	If it were me, I'd move the whole plant to a state better suited to manufacturing firearms. Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and a few others would be less expensive and less hassle to run a gun factory in. -tINY

January 26, 2006, 10:32 PM	#7
Limeyfellow Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2005 Posts: 1,380	The other plants they have are in Belgium and Japan. They don't make any of their stuff in China or India and other really cheap and so-so quality manufacturing bases. People just weren't buying enough Winchesters to make it worth continueing the lines made at the US plant. You can't blame them that they don't want to go bankcrupt supporting a failure.

January 26, 2006, 10:41 PM	#8
marks655 Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 363	Hard to believe a US investor or groups of investors would not have interest in the brand, and keeping the manufcaturing in the US ,even if not in a blue state.

January 27, 2006, 03:45 AM	#10
tINY Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2005 Location: Orygun Posts: 2,589	FN Herstal does not own the Winchester name: Olin Corporation does. FN is manufacturing "Winchesters" under a liscense contract that it acquired when it bought US Repeating Arms Corporation. That contract is set to expire soon. -tINY

January 27, 2006, 03:19 PM	#11
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"Herstals decision is understandable if they are unable to sell enough to cover costs and make a profit." Perfectly understandable. The head of FN Herstal has said they have been losing significant amounts of money in New Haven for years. As most of us realize, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. My only real question is why has it taken them this long to shutter the plant and cut their losses. Maybe they found out OLIN wasn't going to relicense them next year when the original 25-year agreement expired and decided to get a head start. Who knows. Stay tuned. BTW, I love my newly acquired made-in-Belgium 2003 Winchester SX-2 Waterfowl. If FN in Belgium was good enough to produce guns for John Browning, it's good enough for me. John

January 27, 2006, 03:58 PM	#12
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	And, there's the FN plant in South Carolina..... Denis

January 28, 2006, 05:34 AM	#15
tINY Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2005 Location: Orygun Posts: 2,589	Joab I don't know the details of the agreement between Olin and USRAC. But, since the right expires, I have to believe that Olin (maker of Winchester ammunition) owns the name and is leasing it to USRAC for use on firearms. FN simply owns USRAC right now. It won't matter too much. It's getting downright impossible to manufacture firearms in certain northeastern states. Union machiists are expensive and not terribly productive. And the politicians there are out to ban guns anyway. If you want afffordable, well-made firearms, I'm afraid that the South and the West are were they need to be made here in the States. -tINY

January 28, 2006, 05:58 AM	#16
greg531mi Member Join Date: December 7, 2002 Posts: 94	It won't matter too much. It's getting downright impossible to manufacture firearms in certain northeastern states. Union machiists are expensive and not terribly productive. And the politicians there are out to ban guns anyway. If you want afffordable, well-made firearms, I'm afraid that the South and the West are were they need to be made here in the States. As a CNC Machinist, it takes about 5 years to be a good machinist. Where would you get all those trained workers in Texas or anywhere in the South... MircoTech knives moved from Florida to Pennsylvania, because they couldn't find any skilled machinist.... Also, the standard of living in the Northeast is very expensive, unions, not perfect, gives stability in the workforce, which experienced workers stay, which means better quality. Remington is having problems with their Kentucky plant, which makes the 710 and 597. Not all is quality, some is cost cutting, and design problems. They have had a lot of startup and growing pains with a new unskilled workforce. Would you buy a gun from a company with new machinist. A lot of problems happen, especially with new products.

January 28, 2006, 09:25 AM	#18
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	It has always been my experience that if a company has good paying jobs the workmen will come to the jobs.Not the reverse of a company packing their bags and moving to a workforce. I have had more than one job where the company paid all my moving expenses to relocate. Ruger may be a good example, they moved to Prescott Arizona and found qualified machinists etc. Az has a LOT of very qualified mechanics as does all the SW states along with lower taxes, better weather and a Pro business attitude.

January 28, 2006, 10:19 PM	#19
CuriousB! Junior Member Join Date: January 27, 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 13	If any of you do start it up again... Can I come work in the advertising department? I write pretty well and would like to see every house in America own a firearm.

January 29, 2006, 01:54 AM	#20
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Tweaking the ownership again, just slightly. Herstal owns nothing. Herstal is the name of the town in Belgium where Fabrique Nationale (FN) is located. FN is owned by the Belgian government, not the town of Herstal. We'll get this thing nailed down yet, by gum! Denis

January 29, 2006, 02:26 AM	#21
shecky Member Join Date: June 5, 2005 Posts: 72	Moving to AZ or any other state won't help if the Winchester products just don't sell well enough. I suspect that may ultimately be their biggest problem.

January 29, 2006, 08:21 AM	#22
joshua Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2004 Location: norCal Posts: 2,161	All this talk with the Winchester name is making me sad. I hope whatever they decide with it doesn't put the next Winchesters in poor quality category. My first big game hunting rifle was a Win 70 Ranger and I had mixed results with it. Actually shot my first deer with it. I wonder how much it will cost to buy the Winchester name? Get the machining above standards and start putting out some models that will compete with Cooper Arms if not at the same level as Kimber rifles. I don't think it will be profitable just for the initial cost of using the name. josh

January 30, 2006, 04:55 PM	#24
tINY Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2005 Location: Orygun Posts: 2,589	Fine joab You're right we just want to make sure everybody understands the subtleties that you have a firm grasp on. -tINY

January 30, 2006, 07:17 PM	#25
joab Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2002 Location: Orl Fla Posts: 3,254	Personally I don't care if the name continues or not, if the building is gone so is the tradition. I just hope the Bradys don't buy the thing and turn it into their national headquarters __________________ Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing