I and M1 carbine

Francesco · January 17, 2000, 05:45 PM

I love the "War Baby". I carried it until 1985 for my duty (I am an italian policeman) and for this motif I have learned to respect it.
Recently I bought a M1, serial#1.149.xxx, Wichester made.
This gun has Austrian proof marks and "ZW 691" on the trigger guard.
Has someone notices about my little carbine?
Has someone a carbine like this?
Thank you very much in advance and forgive me for my bad English.

Harley Nolden · January 17, 2000, 07:57 PM

Francesco:
I have some material on both guns. Text and also I have assem/disassem procedures.

Is this the kind of information you are looking for, or do you need the assem instructions?
UNITED STATES .30 Carbine Ball M1
Introduced: 1940
Official Adoption by US Army 1941
Modified .32 Winchester
Self loading rifle case.
Type: Strt Taper to neck CF
Length: 1.68"
Wgt: 193gr
Powder: Nitrocellulose
Chg: 14.5 gr
Primer: Boxer (Sml Rifle)

BULLET:
Type: Full Jacketed (Rnd Nose)
Wgt: 111gr
Length: .690"

CARTRIDGE CASE:
Length: 1.65"
Case: 1.290"
Cartridge: 1.65"
Dia: Rim: .360""
Base: .354"
Mouth: .331"
Bullet: .308
Neck: .335"
Twist: 10

Factory Ballistics:
Bullet: MV: ME:
110gr 1975 955
110gr 1970 948

Pressure: 40,000 lb/sq.in.
Bore Dia:
Min: .300"
Max: .308"
The U.S. Ordnance Dept. concluded that a light carbine might have certain advantages over the 45-caliber semi-auto pistol in many combat situations. Various designs were submitted by
a numerous of private manufacturers and in the end Winchester's carbine was selected. The cartridge is a modification of the 32 Winchester self-loading round of 1906, was hardly a revolutionary design, but it served the purpose. About the same time , the Germans developed their assault rifle and the 7.92 Kurtz (short) cartridge. The M-1 Carbine is not an assault rifle and the military insist it was designed to fulfill a different purpose. A few sporting rifles and handguns have been chambered for this cartridge.
UNITED STATES .30 Carbine Ball M1
Introduced: 1940
Official Adoption by US Army 1941
Modified .32 Winchester
Self loading rifle case.
Type: Strt Taper to neck CF
Length: 1.68"
Wgt: 193gr
Powder: Nitrocellulose
Chg: 14.5 gr
Primer: Boxer (Sml Rifle)
BULLET:
Type: Full Jacketed (Rnd Nose)
Wgt: 111gr
Length: .690"
CARTRIDGE CASE:
Length: 1.65"
Case: 1.290"
Cartridge: 1.65"
Dia: Rim: .360""
Base: .354"
Mouth: .331"
Bullet: .308
Neck: .335"
Twist: 10
Factory Ballistics:
Bullet: MV: ME:
110gr 1975 955
110gr 1970 948
Pressure: 40,000 lb/sq.in.
Bore Dia:
Min: .300"
Max: .308"

U.S. CARBINE .30 M1 and M1A1

The carbine form of a service rifle is normally a cut down version of the rifle, receivers and calibers being identical. It is essential to emphasize that the U.S. Carbines, M1 and M1A1 are distinctive arms differing in all their parts, either in design or size, from the standard M1
Garand. The Carbine also has the .30 caliber however it is a short straight tapered case not which is not interchangeable with the 30 caliber (30-06) Garand rifle.

CARBINE CALIBER .30 M1

Shortly after the introduction of the M-1 Garand, semi-automatic rifle, 1936, the Army was looking for a rifle that was some-what smaller and easier to handle, that could be issued to administrative personnel. The Garand was just a bit cumbersome for cooks, clerks, mechanics armored vehicle crews and medical personnel to handle along with doing their every-day duties. In fact many of these soldiers were issued the 1911 .45 Caliber semi-automatic pistol instead of the heavier Garand.

In 1938 the U.S. decided that a small carbine model was needed and submitted its request through channels. The initial request was turned down, probably because the Grand had just been accepted two years previously and felt that it and the 1911 .45 Caliber was sufficient.

Two years later, the U.S. Ordnance Department decided that they did need a light carbine that would have advantages over the 45-Caliber semi-auto pistol in many combat situations and submitted requests to various private manufacturers with the specifications for a light carbine.

The design for the carbine and ammunition presented by Winchester was accepted and adapted in 1941. I can recall this particular carbine as being one of the weapons on the M-60 tank, which I was the commander in Leipeim Germany, in the mid 1950's. As previously mentioned, all crew members had to be proficient with individual and crew served weapons of the tank. That meant although as a crew member you may have been issued as 1911 45 Pistol and a carbine, you had to be proficient with those two weapons plus the M-3 45 Cal Sub-Machine gun, the M37 Machine Gun, the M1 Garand and 90mm cannon.
By comparison to the M-1 Garand, this carbine was easier to handle and a much more comfortable weapon to shoot. The recoil was considerably less and it was lighter. During qualification, most soldiers fired this weapon with better qualifying scores than with the Garand.

Upon my assignment to the Republic of South Viet Nam in Sep 1969, as a military advisor to the infantry commanders, the M-1 carbine surfaced in the Popular Forces inventory and I again found myself re-establishing my familiarity with this weapon.

Popular Forces, Poor Folks, as we called them, were the people who lived in the jungles. We assisted these people in building fortifications, teaching them tactics, marksmanship, booby-traps, and defense against attacks by the Viet Cong.

The M-1 Carbine has been around for many years and used by many countries as a combat weapons, and also by some Federal Law Enforcement agencies. In 1989 I was accepted at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center as a firearms instructor I again found the M-1 Carbine being used with The Federal Bureau of Prisons as their standard issue rifle.

As with any weapon designed for the military, there are alternate designs used for specialty reasons. The carbine is no exception.

U.S. Carbine, Cal .30 M1A1:
This was a design made for paratroops, which was the same basic weapon as the M-1, however, it had a folding metal stock. This made it much easier and compact to jump with and
could be used as designed once the paratrooper was on the ground and unfolded the stock.

U.S. Carbine Cal .30, M2:
The original specifications required a selective fire mechanism, however, this was deleted during the development phase and the M-1 was a single shot semi-automatic carbine. After being in service for some time the demand went out for the select fire for use in emergencies. This demand was quickly responded to making it a semi-and full automatic.

U.S. Carbine Cal .30 M3:

This particular carbine was a standard M2 equipped with various types of night firing devices of that particular era. No open sights or conventional sights were provided.

The U.S. Carbine Cal .30, MI saw action in WWII, the Korean Conflict and the Viet Nam War, to include operations which are still considered secret by the governments that
employed them. It performed well throughout its life span in the military. The semi-automatic version is available on the civilian markets as well. Many of the military semi-auto versions are in fact now being imported after years of War Storage in Korea, and being sold on the civilian market.

HJN

fal308 · January 18, 2000, 10:18 AM

As Harley notes in his excellent post the M1 Carbine was available in several versions. There were also commercial (non-military) versions available, though I don't know if they were available in Europe. Some of the commercial models have only partial interchangeability with military models and military parts and some of the commercial models have no interchangeability with military models and military parts. Iver Johnson and Universal are the most common commercial models. Both were sold as "police guns" back in the 1960s.

fal308 · January 18, 2000, 10:21 AM

Almost forgot. Welcome to The Firing Line.

We look forward to hearing more from you and your viewpoint on different topics as I'm sure some are quite different from the USA perspective. Don't worry about your English, as long as you're close we'll understand. Besides, it's probably better than some of the kids here in the USA nowadays anyway.

Francesco · January 18, 2000, 04:15 PM

Thank you very much for your kindness.
I know wey well history and componentso of my M1 carbine; thanks for the offered helps.
In My Corps (Italian "Carabinieri") the M1 is again on duty (but only for "club" use in riot control, because we do not use M1 for shoot) and until 1985 we have carried they for the normal duty.
If someone want to know anything about our services and/or italian laws about guns, ask me your questions.
Ciao

LOCHFAL · January 19, 2000, 12:07 AM

Francesco,
Did you actually mean that the M1 carbine is used as a club to hit people with rather than as a firearm? If so thats interesting, why not just use baseball bats instead?

Harley Nolden · January 19, 2000, 09:34 AM

lochfal:
There is a reasonable thought here, in using the Carbine as a club, rather than shoot. Although the Francesco stated the use as a club, this is probably not known by the the local populace, and the site of a rifle in crowd control could be used as a "show of force" even though it not be loaded.

Even in our LOE training, batons are used, and proper use can deter an advisary. This would make me think then that the use of the Carbine by the Italian Gov. is a method of "Non Lethal" techniques, coupled with a psychological addition of having a rifle present.

In my opinion, In crowd control, when the demonstrators See a force of police officers with batons it doesn't seem to present a lethal threat. Put into the perspective of a force of police officers with rifles, even unloaded would tend to make the crowd think twice.

HJN

[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited January 19, 2000).]

DC · January 19, 2000, 11:09 AM

Benvenuto a TFL, cugino! Dove siete " un Carabinieri "? Speriamo che godiate la
vostra partecipazione alle tribune.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

January 17, 2000, 05:45 PM	#1
Francesco Junior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Posts: 2	I love the "War Baby". I carried it until 1985 for my duty (I am an italian policeman) and for this motif I have learned to respect it. Recently I bought a M1, serial#1.149.xxx, Wichester made. This gun has Austrian proof marks and "ZW 691" on the trigger guard. Has someone notices about my little carbine? Has someone a carbine like this? Thank you very much in advance and forgive me for my bad English.

January 17, 2000, 07:57 PM	#2
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	Francesco: I have some material on both guns. Text and also I have assem/disassem procedures. Is this the kind of information you are looking for, or do you need the assem instructions? UNITED STATES .30 Carbine Ball M1 Introduced: 1940 Official Adoption by US Army 1941 Modified .32 Winchester Self loading rifle case. Type: Strt Taper to neck CF Length: 1.68" Wgt: 193gr Powder: Nitrocellulose Chg: 14.5 gr Primer: Boxer (Sml Rifle) BULLET: Type: Full Jacketed (Rnd Nose) Wgt: 111gr Length: .690" CARTRIDGE CASE: Length: 1.65" Case: 1.290" Cartridge: 1.65" Dia: Rim: .360"" Base: .354" Mouth: .331" Bullet: .308 Neck: .335" Twist: 10 Factory Ballistics: Bullet: MV: ME: 110gr 1975 955 110gr 1970 948 Pressure: 40,000 lb/sq.in. Bore Dia: Min: .300" Max: .308" The U.S. Ordnance Dept. concluded that a light carbine might have certain advantages over the 45-caliber semi-auto pistol in many combat situations. Various designs were submitted by a numerous of private manufacturers and in the end Winchester's carbine was selected. The cartridge is a modification of the 32 Winchester self-loading round of 1906, was hardly a revolutionary design, but it served the purpose. About the same time , the Germans developed their assault rifle and the 7.92 Kurtz (short) cartridge. The M-1 Carbine is not an assault rifle and the military insist it was designed to fulfill a different purpose. A few sporting rifles and handguns have been chambered for this cartridge. UNITED STATES .30 Carbine Ball M1 Introduced: 1940 Official Adoption by US Army 1941 Modified .32 Winchester Self loading rifle case. Type: Strt Taper to neck CF Length: 1.68" Wgt: 193gr Powder: Nitrocellulose Chg: 14.5 gr Primer: Boxer (Sml Rifle) BULLET: Type: Full Jacketed (Rnd Nose) Wgt: 111gr Length: .690" CARTRIDGE CASE: Length: 1.65" Case: 1.290" Cartridge: 1.65" Dia: Rim: .360"" Base: .354" Mouth: .331" Bullet: .308 Neck: .335" Twist: 10 Factory Ballistics: Bullet: MV: ME: 110gr 1975 955 110gr 1970 948 Pressure: 40,000 lb/sq.in. Bore Dia: Min: .300" Max: .308" U.S. CARBINE .30 M1 and M1A1 The carbine form of a service rifle is normally a cut down version of the rifle, receivers and calibers being identical. It is essential to emphasize that the U.S. Carbines, M1 and M1A1 are distinctive arms differing in all their parts, either in design or size, from the standard M1 Garand. The Carbine also has the .30 caliber however it is a short straight tapered case not which is not interchangeable with the 30 caliber (30-06) Garand rifle. CARBINE CALIBER .30 M1 Shortly after the introduction of the M-1 Garand, semi-automatic rifle, 1936, the Army was looking for a rifle that was some-what smaller and easier to handle, that could be issued to administrative personnel. The Garand was just a bit cumbersome for cooks, clerks, mechanics armored vehicle crews and medical personnel to handle along with doing their every-day duties. In fact many of these soldiers were issued the 1911 .45 Caliber semi-automatic pistol instead of the heavier Garand. In 1938 the U.S. decided that a small carbine model was needed and submitted its request through channels. The initial request was turned down, probably because the Grand had just been accepted two years previously and felt that it and the 1911 .45 Caliber was sufficient. Two years later, the U.S. Ordnance Department decided that they did need a light carbine that would have advantages over the 45-Caliber semi-auto pistol in many combat situations and submitted requests to various private manufacturers with the specifications for a light carbine. The design for the carbine and ammunition presented by Winchester was accepted and adapted in 1941. I can recall this particular carbine as being one of the weapons on the M-60 tank, which I was the commander in Leipeim Germany, in the mid 1950's. As previously mentioned, all crew members had to be proficient with individual and crew served weapons of the tank. That meant although as a crew member you may have been issued as 1911 45 Pistol and a carbine, you had to be proficient with those two weapons plus the M-3 45 Cal Sub-Machine gun, the M37 Machine Gun, the M1 Garand and 90mm cannon. By comparison to the M-1 Garand, this carbine was easier to handle and a much more comfortable weapon to shoot. The recoil was considerably less and it was lighter. During qualification, most soldiers fired this weapon with better qualifying scores than with the Garand. Upon my assignment to the Republic of South Viet Nam in Sep 1969, as a military advisor to the infantry commanders, the M-1 carbine surfaced in the Popular Forces inventory and I again found myself re-establishing my familiarity with this weapon. Popular Forces, Poor Folks, as we called them, were the people who lived in the jungles. We assisted these people in building fortifications, teaching them tactics, marksmanship, booby-traps, and defense against attacks by the Viet Cong. The M-1 Carbine has been around for many years and used by many countries as a combat weapons, and also by some Federal Law Enforcement agencies. In 1989 I was accepted at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center as a firearms instructor I again found the M-1 Carbine being used with The Federal Bureau of Prisons as their standard issue rifle. As with any weapon designed for the military, there are alternate designs used for specialty reasons. The carbine is no exception. U.S. Carbine, Cal .30 M1A1: This was a design made for paratroops, which was the same basic weapon as the M-1, however, it had a folding metal stock. This made it much easier and compact to jump with and could be used as designed once the paratrooper was on the ground and unfolded the stock. U.S. Carbine Cal .30, M2: The original specifications required a selective fire mechanism, however, this was deleted during the development phase and the M-1 was a single shot semi-automatic carbine. After being in service for some time the demand went out for the select fire for use in emergencies. This demand was quickly responded to making it a semi-and full automatic. U.S. Carbine Cal .30 M3: This particular carbine was a standard M2 equipped with various types of night firing devices of that particular era. No open sights or conventional sights were provided. The U.S. Carbine Cal .30, MI saw action in WWII, the Korean Conflict and the Viet Nam War, to include operations which are still considered secret by the governments that employed them. It performed well throughout its life span in the military. The semi-automatic version is available on the civilian markets as well. Many of the military semi-auto versions are in fact now being imported after years of War Storage in Korea, and being sold on the civilian market. HJN

January 18, 2000, 10:18 AM	#3
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	As Harley notes in his excellent post the M1 Carbine was available in several versions. There were also commercial (non-military) versions available, though I don't know if they were available in Europe. Some of the commercial models have only partial interchangeability with military models and military parts and some of the commercial models have no interchangeability with military models and military parts. Iver Johnson and Universal are the most common commercial models. Both were sold as "police guns" back in the 1960s.

January 18, 2000, 10:21 AM	#4
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Almost forgot. Welcome to The Firing Line. We look forward to hearing more from you and your viewpoint on different topics as I'm sure some are quite different from the USA perspective. Don't worry about your English, as long as you're close we'll understand. Besides, it's probably better than some of the kids here in the USA nowadays anyway.

January 18, 2000, 04:15 PM	#5
Francesco Junior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Posts: 2	Thank you very much for your kindness. I know wey well history and componentso of my M1 carbine; thanks for the offered helps. In My Corps (Italian "Carabinieri") the M1 is again on duty (but only for "club" use in riot control, because we do not use M1 for shoot) and until 1985 we have carried they for the normal duty. If someone want to know anything about our services and/or italian laws about guns, ask me your questions. Ciao

January 19, 2000, 12:07 AM	#6
LOCHFAL Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Posts: 211	Francesco, Did you actually mean that the M1 carbine is used as a club to hit people with rather than as a firearm? If so thats interesting, why not just use baseball bats instead?

January 19, 2000, 09:34 AM	#7
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	lochfal: There is a reasonable thought here, in using the Carbine as a club, rather than shoot. Although the Francesco stated the use as a club, this is probably not known by the the local populace, and the site of a rifle in crowd control could be used as a "show of force" even though it not be loaded. Even in our LOE training, batons are used, and proper use can deter an advisary. This would make me think then that the use of the Carbine by the Italian Gov. is a method of "Non Lethal" techniques, coupled with a psychological addition of having a rifle present. In my opinion, In crowd control, when the demonstrators See a force of police officers with batons it doesn't seem to present a lethal threat. Put into the perspective of a force of police officers with rifles, even unloaded would tend to make the crowd think twice. HJN [This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited January 19, 2000).]

January 19, 2000, 11:09 AM	#8
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	Benvenuto a TFL, cugino! Dove siete " un Carabinieri "? Speriamo che godiate la vostra partecipazione alle tribune. ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!